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Coming Announcement RF 28-70 f2.8 STM $1099

  
 
AmbientMike
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · Coming Announcement RF 28-70 f2.8 STM $1099


As already mentioned 24mm is wider but I'd still (ideally, anyway) need something 17-21mm. Used to use 21, 35 & 50. Been using 18-55, often with corrections, not perfect however has a good range & that is ~29-88 ff equivalent before corrections.

In addition 2.8 mid range zooms used to be 35-70 (see the Nikkor) so even 28-70 is an upgrade. It'll be interesting to see the actual fl before and after corrections, and the distortion figures. Very interesting lens though especially since it's less than 24-105/4 L

Edited on Sep 13, 2024 at 01:26 PM · View previous versions



Sep 13, 2024 at 01:24 PM
mawz
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · Coming Announcement RF 28-70 f2.8 STM $1099


steamtrain wrote:
I've seen what stm can (can't) do in an RF 85mm prime so I rest my case. At 28 and maybe even 35mm it could be fine, but at 70mm it will struggle with fast action.
There's a price tag to be mentioned as well: A whopping 1320 euro. For 180 extra I can get me a Sigma FE 28-45mm f/1.8, and for 440 LESS I can get me a Sigma FE 28-70mm f/2.8. So it seams a little bit overpriced, at least at it's introduction price.


The RF85/2 is a macro lens and on the fast side, so it ain't gonna be speedy.

STM is just fine on longer lenses if they are designed for AF speed and have reasonably light focusing groups. Making assumptions about a f2.8 zoom's AF performance based on a fast 85 Macro's AF performance with the same tech is going to mislead you. They're very different sets of optimizations.



Sep 13, 2024 at 01:26 PM
RustyRus
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · Coming Announcement RF 28-70 f2.8 STM $1099


steamtrain wrote:
I've seen what stm can (can't) do in an RF 85mm prime so I rest my case. At 28 and maybe even 35mm it could be fine, but at 70mm it will struggle with fast action.
There's a price tag to be mentioned as well: A whopping 1320 euro. For 180 extra I can get me a Sigma FE 28-45mm f/1.8, and for 440 LESS I can get me a Sigma FE 28-70mm f/2.8. So it seams a little bit overpriced, at least at it's introduction price.


Ok Gotcha-

So no chance Canon improved the performance of the STM motors? Again- Lets not compare a lens you haven't used with hypotheticals-


From Canon Engineers-

Canon has also been working hard to improve STM focus motors. These motors significally reduce the cost of lens production. USM motors, while fantastic are large and expensive to produce. Canon is now able to move groups twice as heavy with STM motors with their latest advancements. These are the areas of R&D that don't get enough attention, the small things can make a big difference in the products that reach the market.

From Canon Engineers-

We've also improved the focus mechanism, known as a “lead screw type STM (Stepping Motor).” The focus mechanism installed in this lens has been upgraded to the point where it can move lenses that are about twice as heavy as the lenses we used to move



Sep 13, 2024 at 01:59 PM
rscheffler
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · Coming Announcement RF 28-70 f2.8 STM $1099


selski wrote:
So, Ill be on the lookout for this if price comes down and/or Sigma releases theirs for RF to use on my R8, to which I have the 24mm F1.8 already.


I think the whole point of this 28-70/2.8 release is to counter the Sigma/Tamron options available for Sony, Nikon and L Mount systems. Reading between the lines, it strongly suggests this is an area Canon will not open to third party options.

BokehBeauty wrote:
But it comes with some caveats:
- almost 29mm per the related patent along with the well known Canon optical distortions. Will be interesting whether it is really close to 28mm.

Patent: https://www.canonwatch.com/canon-patent-rf-28-70mm-f2-8-lens/

Toothwalker wrote:
The patent says it is a 29-68 mm lens, just like its bigger brother. So the focal length is 29 mm at the widest setting, which implies that, after distortion correction, you get the field of view corresponding to a 29-mm rectilinear lens. Without correction the focal length is also 29 mm, but the field of view will be a bit larger because of barrel distortion.

BokehBeauty wrote:
You may explain more for me. Sure, it has by design a 29mm focal length (FL) on the wide end, but distortion correction requires cropping, so the resulting FoV will be equivalent to a longer FL. I guess the practically important question is what will the effective FL be. Or is my question wrong?


The way Canon appears to correct lens distortion is that they 'pin' the central image area so it doesn't change size. The distortion correction flows out from the center and crops away the outer periphery. Third party software, such as Lightroom, might apply distortion correction differently by keeping as much usable field of view, which will be wider than Canon's method of correction, but will make the content in the scene slightly smaller. If the 28-70/2.8 has strong 28mm distortion, it might be possible to extract a wider than 28/29mm field of view through third party RAW conversion.

Below are examples from the 24-105/2.8 Z

First is SOOC jpeg
Second is RAW with distortion correction disabled in LRC
Third is Adobe's distortion correction applied in LRC.










In the GIF, note how the very central subject content is the same size in the SOOC image and the one with distortion correction disabled. The distorted image though has a wider field of view because of how the distortion 'compresses' content in the midfield area, thus pulling in more field of view from the periphery. In the Adobe corrected image central subject content becomes smaller because the wider field of view was retained. So, which way is the right way to correct the distortion?



Sep 13, 2024 at 11:03 PM
steamtrain
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · Coming Announcement RF 28-70 f2.8 STM $1099


RustyRus wrote:
These are the areas of R&D that don't get enough attention, the small things can make a big difference in the products that reach the market.

From Canon Engineers



It would have been nice if those "Canon Engineers" (...) would have been blessed with this awareness before starting to design the RF 85mm f/2.0 IS stm. It's possible some unawareness in the past left enough scope for improvement without threatening L performance territory.

I think the IQ would have to be astonishing good to justify the 1320 euro price tag. For as little as 180 euro extra you can get the Sigma FE 28-45mm f/1.8, and I would rather combine that with the Sony FE 28-60mm slow compact zoom in cases a low weight on the camera is important. Over 45mm a zoom has to reach 85mm or so at least to add some truly interesting telephoto reach, so 45, 60 or 68mm is all in the same ball park for me. Most telephoto shots will be at 68mm, not because you wanted 68mm, but because you wanted more. The new Sigma FE 28-105mm f/2.8 solves that, which will cost you 1650 in stead of 1320, which is a difference of course, however, in terms of added value that extra 320 euro is easily justified imo.
For Canon you can do 29-68mm f/2.8 + 24-105mm stm, but that will cost you 1760 euro, which is 100 euro more, while you won't get that f/2.8 in that nice 80-105mm portrait range.

If you're looking for a value for money option at a lower price, the Sigma FE 28-70mm f/2.8 is 440 euro less. So as a middle ground option for the RF mount this new lens is a step in the right direction, but it's a whopping
50% more than what you can get on competing mounts. The RF lens will give you better stabilization (yes, that's a statement before actual experiences and reviews I'm making here as well), but I think that alone doesn't justify a 50% higher price tag imo.




Sep 14, 2024 at 05:36 AM
BokehBeauty
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · Coming Announcement RF 28-70 f2.8 STM $1099


rscheffler wrote:
I think the whole point of this 28-70/2.8 release is to counter the Sigma/Tamron options available for Sony, Nikon and L Mount systems. Reading between the lines, it strongly suggests this is an area Canon will not open to third party options.


The way Canon appears to correct lens distortion is that they 'pin' the central image area so it doesn't change size. The distortion correction flows out from the center and crops away the outer periphery. Third party software, such as Lightroom, might apply distortion correction differently by keeping as much usable field of view, which will be wider
...Show more

Very interesting. The Canon SEooC jpeg crops a lot and distorts human faces and bodies a lot. I doubt this corresponds to the FL of an optically well corrected lens. The LrC algorithm looks best to me, they keep a good balance of human body distortion and cropping. Would be interesting to see what DxO PL gives. In my past experience they did crop off the least.



Sep 14, 2024 at 07:36 AM
alundeb
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · Coming Announcement RF 28-70 f2.8 STM $1099


Looking at the MTF

https://personal.canon.jp/product/camera/rf/rf28-70-f28/spec

This lens has higher image quality ambitions than the 24-105 STM and the 24-50, more in the ballpark of the L standard zooms.

Looks very interesting to go between the 14-35 L IS and the 70-200 F4 L IS for a compact high quality landscape kit.



Sep 14, 2024 at 07:56 AM
rscheffler
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · Coming Announcement RF 28-70 f2.8 STM $1099


steamtrain wrote:
I think the IQ would have to be astonishing good to justify the 1320 euro price tag. For as little as 180 euro extra you can get the Sigma FE 28-45mm f/1.8, and I would rather combine that with the Sony FE 28-60mm slow compact zoom in cases a low weight on the camera is important. Over 45mm a zoom has to reach 85mm or so at least to add some truly interesting telephoto reach, so 45, 60 or 68mm is all in the same ball park for me.


The Sigma 28-45 looks to be optically extremely impressive. But it's aimed at a different user willing to tolerate its size, weight and especially its limited zoom range for that amazing optical performance. As you suggested, one is almost always going to pair it with another lens, which is one more thing to carry, and more weight. I was very skeptical about Canon's 28-70/2 back in 2018 (no 24mm, size, weight, price), then I used one a few times and quickly changed my mind and accepted the cost of entry, given that it would effectively replace numerous prime equivalents. Maybe I'd feel similarly about the Sigma, but at the moment the zoom range topping out at 45mm is a major detraction, at least for me.

The Canon 28-70/2.8 is a more mainstream 'standard' zoom, that likely in order to fit within certain parameters (size, weight, range, price), is what it is. Sure, pick a certain specification and there will be better alternatives. But as a total package, it will have relevance within Canon's RF lens walled garden. And it appears to address a major criticism: lack of fast and 'affordable' options (affordable of course being very subjective). The number of Canon users at whom this lens is targeted also shooting with other mirrorless systems is probably single digit percentages. Therefore the majority won't have the option of the lens choices you stated above.



Sep 14, 2024 at 08:42 AM
johnctharp
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · Coming Announcement RF 28-70 f2.8 STM $1099


rscheffler wrote:
The Canon 28-70/2.8 is a more mainstream 'standard' zoom, that likely in order to fit within certain parameters (size, weight, range, price), is what it is.


Nailed it. The best camera (and lens) in the world is the one you have in your hand, and a fast standard zoom like this 28-70/2.8 is more likely to be with you and not in a bag / on a shelf.



Sep 14, 2024 at 08:52 AM
steamtrain
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · Coming Announcement RF 28-70 f2.8 STM $1099


rscheffler wrote:
The Sigma 28-45 looks to be optically extremely impressive. But it's aimed at a different user willing to tolerate its size, weight and especially its limited zoom range for that amazing optical performance. As you suggested, one is almost always going to pair it with another lens, which is one more thing to carry, and more weight. I was very skeptical about Canon's 28-70/2 back in 2018 (no 24mm, size, weight, price), then I used one a few times and quickly changed my mind and accepted the cost of entry, given that it would effectively replace numerous prime equivalents. Maybe
...Show more
within RF lens walled garden, sure

rscheffler wrote:
And it appears to address a major criticism: lack of fast and 'affordable' options (affordable of course being very subjective).

It addresses that critique, yes. I don't think the RF 29-68mm and the Sigma FE 28-70mm are thát incomparable you can't conclude the RF lens is significantly less affordable. The RF lens adds ILIS, and the RF lens is compatible with the R8 which is good value for money, however, at some point adding more lenses being relatively poor value for money "because you're locked up in the RF lens walled garden" you'll go beyond the tipping point where the FE system overall has the best value for money.

rscheffler wrote:
The number of Canon users at whom this lens is targeted also shooting with other mirrorless systems is probably single digit percentages. Therefore the majority won't have the option of the lens choices you stated above.

While true, it's another example new adopters should think twice before entering that RF lens walled garden, for instance by getting that R8. The price difference between the RF 29-68mm f/2.8 stm and the Sigma 28-70mm f/2.8 fills a large part of the gap between the price of the A7CII and the R8. Generally, when buying the second or third lens, the A7CII is turns out to be no only the better value for money option, but also the more affordable option.
Lets not forget you don't have to shoot Canon RF to shoot a compact 28-70mm f/2.8, as the FE system offers that option as well. A single platform can do the job, unless you have specific needs only the RF mount can fulfill for you.





Sep 14, 2024 at 11:58 AM
 


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Toothwalker
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · Coming Announcement RF 28-70 f2.8 STM $1099


rscheffler wrote:
So, which way is the right way to correct the distortion?


Since there is never distortion in the very image center, the correct way is the one that i) does not change the size of an object in the center; ii) renders straight lines as straight lines, no matter where they are in the frame. The image should be the same as that of a pinhole camera with the hole at a distance f from the sensor (but likely quite a bit sharper). As to i), this should be measured before downsizing, because obviously a correction method that maintains more of the original image will result in a smaller size of a center object after downscaling to the same web display size.

There seems to be widespread confusion about the relationship between focal length and the field of view. A 16-mm fisheye lens yields a much larger field of view than a 16-mm rectilinear lens, yet the focal lengths are the same. The focal length f stated in a patent is always the correct number, and tells us what the field of view will be after correct distortion correction. The uncorrected image may show more, but that does not imply that the lens is "wider than f". It just means that the projection is not rectilinear.







Sep 14, 2024 at 01:33 PM
kakomu
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · Coming Announcement RF 28-70 f2.8 STM $1099


This is a funny lens and I love it.

First, it's light weight. Only 100g more than the 24-105 STM and similar in size. I love the compactness of the lens! Super fast zoom in a tiny size? Yes!

Second, the package must make a bunch of optical compromises to be that small and light weight. There's just no way around it. I'm also willing to accept quite a bit of quality drop. Hopefully it's not too disappointing.

Third, it's neither an L lens nor a USM lens. What does that say about its overall quality? Will it fall apart into a bunch of pieces? I hope a random drop doesn't kill it.

Fourth, it couldn't do 24mm? This means I still need my 24mm prime. I could go back to the 15-30 zoom to decrease total lenses.

I'll probably get this eventually. I can stand to lose a couple primes. Probably just keep the 16mm and 35mm (which I adore).

Edited on Sep 15, 2024 at 04:07 AM · View previous versions



Sep 14, 2024 at 09:13 PM
Mike_5D
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · Coming Announcement RF 28-70 f2.8 STM $1099


kakomu wrote:
This is a funny lens and I love it.

First, it's light weight. Only 100g more than the 24-105 STM and similar in size. I love the compactness of the lens! Super fast zoom in a tiny size? Yes!

Second, the package must make a bunch of optical compromises to be that small and light weight. There's just no way around it. I'm also willing to accept quite a bit of quality drop. Hopefully it's not too disappointing.

Third, it's neither an L lens nor a USM lens. What does that say about its overall quality? Will it fall apart into a bunch
...Show more

The 28-70 2.8 + 16/2.8 could be a good lightweight combo. Just zoom with your feet and/or crop the 16.



Sep 15, 2024 at 12:47 AM
johnctharp
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · Coming Announcement RF 28-70 f2.8 STM $1099


steamtrain wrote:
Generally, when buying the second or third lens, the A7CII is turns out to be no only the better value for money option, but also the more affordable option.
Lets not forget you don't have to shoot Canon RF to shoot a compact 28-70mm f/2.8, as the FE system offers that option as well. A single platform can do the job, unless you have specific needs only the RF mount can fulfill for you.



You see, if you get a Sony, the downside is - you have to shoot a Sony! Go bark up another tree.



Sep 15, 2024 at 07:45 AM
Choderboy
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · Coming Announcement RF 28-70 f2.8 STM $1099


Thread title: Coming Announcement RF 28-70 f2.8 STM $1099

Why try to turn this thread into "Why you should buy a Sony instead of Canon?"

steamtrain wrote:
It would have been nice if those "Canon Engineers" (...) would have been blessed with this awareness before starting to design the RF 85mm f/2.0 IS stm. It's possible some unawareness in the past left enough scope for improvement without threatening L performance territory.

I think the IQ would have to be astonishing good to justify the 1320 euro price tag. For as little as 180 euro extra you can get the Sigma FE 28-45mm f/1.8, and I would rather combine that with the Sony FE 28-60mm slow compact zoom in cases a low weight on the camera is important.
...Show more




Sep 15, 2024 at 08:09 AM
kakomu
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · Coming Announcement RF 28-70 f2.8 STM $1099


Mike_5D wrote:
The 28-70 2.8 + 16/2.8 could be a good lightweight combo. Just zoom with your feet and/or crop the 16.


I can certainly stand to pare my lenses down. Once it’s released I’ll probably sell a couple lenses and pick this up.



Sep 15, 2024 at 09:40 AM
MintMar
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · Coming Announcement RF 28-70 f2.8 STM $1099


As it has been already said, I am glad that Canon is finally making non-L zooms that are brighter than 6.3 on the long end.


Sep 15, 2024 at 11:09 AM
BokehBeauty
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · Coming Announcement RF 28-70 f2.8 STM $1099


A preview with very nice real-life pictures. The bokeh looks very smooth.

https://youtu.be/D7a-CNTNX2k?si=MdvzAXVOrTqo5gOP



Sep 15, 2024 at 03:28 PM
johnvanr
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · Coming Announcement RF 28-70 f2.8 STM $1099


johnctharp wrote:
You see, if you get a Sony, the downside is - you have to shoot a Sony! Go bark up another tree.


You’re right.

At the same time, Steamtrain is in Europe. Now that I find myself on that side of the pond as well, I must say I’m sometimes shocked. That new Canon lens seems fairly priced in the US, but is crazy overpriced in Europe. And there is no competition in lens choices for RF.

Nowadays, I find myself comparing prices between the US and Europe all the time and there’s no rhyme or reason to it. Just today, I ordered one lens in the US and one in Europe (neither a Canon). I bought a used Zf this week in the US, because used Zf’s here in Europe are more expensive than new ones in the US.

As long as I have contacts in the US and people traveling back and forth, I’m good, but I’m glad I did buy a ton of gear before I moved because global pricing is crazy.



Sep 15, 2024 at 04:34 PM
rscheffler
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · Coming Announcement RF 28-70 f2.8 STM $1099


johnvanr wrote:
At the same time, Steamtrain is in Europe. Now that I find myself on that side of the pond as well, I must say I’m sometimes shocked. That new Canon lens seems fairly priced in the US, but is crazy overpriced in Europe. And there is no competition in lens choices for RF.

Nowadays, I find myself comparing prices between the US and Europe all the time and there’s no rhyme or reason to it. Just today, I ordered one lens in the US and one in Europe (neither a Canon). I bought a used Zf this week in the US,
...Show more

Because you're paying in the range of 20% VAT? Or is this pre-tax pricing that you're comparing between the US and Europe? Probably other factors too, such as cost of EU operations vs. those in the US and elsewhere. Gotta pay those good EU wages!



Sep 15, 2024 at 10:53 PM
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