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Canon aps-c roll out a joke!!

IlyaSnopchenko
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Canon aps-c roll out a joke!!

EB-1 wrote:
I made some poor choices buying all those 1Ds series that are useless now. But they produced the best IQ you could get until the 5DsR.

It seems to me that Canon significantly bypassed the serious cropper use by producing the slow, medium priced RF FF lenses. Nikon has noticeably done the same and doesn't even have the equivalent of the R7. I have no experience with Fuji X, but that's a logical choice in APS-C croppers.

EBH

If they work and can produce images, they're not useless.

Sep 09, 2024 at 04:33 AM

AmbientMike
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Canon aps-c roll out a joke!!

EB-1 wrote:
The 17-55/2.8 in 2006 was the first high grade (not L) EF-S lens that I can recall.
However, the 1.6x system was never considered to be the good stuff, just the entry level into digital for film migration in the early 2000s. The 1D and 1Ds and subsequent models were the high-grade bodies until the 5D was introduced as a mid-grade option. I had a 20D/30D/50D before the 7D, which was the first Canon 1.6x body that provided advanced performance for the time. A high percentage of 1.6x cropper users were seeking reach, especially those using the 7D.

EBH

Wasn't on the level of the 1D series I suppose, but the 20D a pretty serious prosumer body back then. As @ISO1600@ mentioned, $1500 at launch. Knew a guy that ran a good sized portrait studio using one

$8k bodies pretty insanely priced but also pretty easily justified compared to film and processing costs if a person actually used them enough. <40k film images probably cost $8k+, depending on the film emulsion and processing one actually used

Sep 09, 2024 at 01:06 PM

IlyaSnopchenko
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Canon aps-c roll out a joke!!

Well that was all the "growth pains" of the industry. I had a 30D as my first Canon DSLR but I hated it with a passion. Took me two years to get a used 1D Mark II N instead and I couldn't be happier (and incidentally, that was when I felt I really started getting better at photography...) However, the latter day double-digit bodies were great, I thoroughly enjoyed using the 80D.

Never had any 5 series but used them as loaners. I hated 5D Mark II immensely due to the AF that (as I felt) might as well be nonexistent, but the 5D Mark III was actually good, a great all-rounder (though i still felt the 1D Mark IV was a better camera).

Sep 10, 2024 at 01:30 AM

Pixelpuffin
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Canon aps-c roll out a joke!!

IlyaSnopchenko wrote:
Well that was all the "growth pains" of the industry. I had a 30D as my first Canon DSLR but I hated it with a passion. Took me two years to get a used 1D Mark II N instead and I couldn't be happier (and incidentally, that was when I felt I really started getting better at photography...) However, the latter day double-digit bodies were great, I thoroughly enjoyed using the 80D.

Never had any 5 series but used them as loaners. I hated 5D Mark II immensely due to the AF that (as I felt) might as well be nonexistent,...Show more →

Really surprised you think the 1div was better than the 5d3
The 5d3 is still my workhorse for photographing sons football with the 100-400Lii
I popped outside last night with the 1div and 24-105L F4, The camera does feel great, but the AF seems way behind the 5d3. Centre spot AF point is just too big so misses focus and if I let the camera select its own AF point, I have no idea what it’s focused on as nothing lights up in the viewfinder?? Is that normal??
But the ergonomics of the 1div does feel great. Makes my RP feel like a toy in comparison , maybe it is a toy in comparison 😂

Sep 10, 2024 at 03:47 AM

Hairy Heron
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Canon aps-c roll out a joke!!

Pixelpuffin wrote:
As it stands, the system is a joke. Why would you buy a aps-c sensor then be forced to use FF glass that is twice the size and twice the weight it needs to be to cover the smaller sized sensor, where is the sense in that??

It's not a "joke," it's just not the right system for you it seems. I think you'd be more satisfied moving to a company that focuses on crop sensor bodies -- Fuji, Olympus. APS-C is not a priority for the "big 3" at the moment; video is, and with that power zoom lenses because that is where the market and money is.

But even back in the DSLR days when there were excellent crop sensor bodies like Nikon D500, which was my main camera for years, I still only bought FF lenses. It's just more practical/versatile. Even if Nikon or Canon comes out with a true advanced hobbyist/or pro-level crop bodies, which I hope they will, I'll doubt I'd ever buy an APS-C lens unless it has a unique feature over my FF lenses. For example Fuji's 150-600 is the .5lb heavier and 1 stop slower than RF 100-500. So if Fuji's lens was available in a RF mount why would I buy that over the RF 100-500. It would make zero sense even if I only shot on crop bodies.

Sep 11, 2024 at 08:28 AM

alundeb
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Canon aps-c roll out a joke!!

Rest assured, if Canon announced those serious RF-S lenses today, we would have threads about how insanely overpriced they are (think Sigma 18-50 + 50% minimum) and how you wouldn't buy them.

Sep 11, 2024 at 11:01 AM

gdanmitchell
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Canon aps-c roll out a joke!!

To be blunt, Canon is simply not going to roll out a bunch of "pro" level lenses specifically designed for their APS-C cameras. At this point, the market for them would be minuscule.

Where is that market for the most part? A few places:

1. Folks who feel that they prefer APS-C for its greater "reach." (I'll not go into the issues of that here.) But these folks are often wildlife photographers who can work very well with the full frame lenses with the focal lengths they want. Canon isn't going to produce lenses equal to their FF options here that only work on APS-C — there simply isn't enough of a market.

2. Folks who want a smaller camera system for things like travel. (These are the people who used to switch to something like the SL2 for travel — a great option back in the day.) There is a market for this, but there's no consistency about a large demand for high end lenses just for these cameras.

3. Folks looking for low-cost cameras and lenses for relatively "informal" photography — family, vacations, etc. Most of these people are simply sharing electronic images or (rarely, but possibly) making small prints no larger than letter size. The inexpensive, versatile lenses currently available are fine for them.

As mentioned above, if having a full line of very high quality (arguable "professional," to use the common shorthand) lenses for an APS-C system is critical to you, your best options will not be Canon. I use a Fujifilm APS-C system in conjunction with the Canon FF system, and this works our really well.

Edited on Sep 11, 2024 at 04:47 PM · View previous versions

Sep 11, 2024 at 01:19 PM

AmbientMike
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Canon aps-c roll out a joke!!

I'll try to get back to this later, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Fuji has 12.6 oz bodies these days unless X-E series is still going. Canon does

The difference between "pro" and non pro lenses is largely artificial. I haven't used the EF-S 24/2.8, probably pretty good, very compact, 18-55's might not be perfect but I suppose 24-105's (for one) aren't, either. I have yet to see 50/1.8 , even from the 60's, that is bad, they've been light, too, need to be stopped down in general, though

Sep 11, 2024 at 02:07 PM

Pixelpuffin
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Canon aps-c roll out a joke!!

gdanmitchell wrote:
To be blunt, Canon is simply not going to roll out a bunch of "pro" level lenses specifically designed for their APS-C cameras. At this point, the market for them would be minuscule.

Where I that market for the most part? A few places:

1. Folks who feel that they prefer APS-C for its greater "reach." (I'll not go into the issues of that here.) But these folks are often wildlife photographers who can work very well with the full frame lenses with the focal lengths they want. Canon isn't going to produce lenses equal to their FF options here that only...Show more →

The M series was canons biggest seller
The scope and potential to appeal to non photographers was phenomenal, people like me who are still really interested in taking pictures but not interested enough to blow £6K+ or haul a bag of FF glass all day but who want better than what our phones offer.
I really mourn the loss of the M line, for me it was exciting. I loved the smaller form factor along with the 3 primes 22, 28 and 32mm. A fast 56 and fast 90 would have been amazing. Sigma stepped in with the 56. But the real cherry on top was being able to mount virtually any lens via adapter, for those moments when you wanted to get serious, otherwise a M200 & 22mm is the perfect take anywhere camera.

Canon made a very stupid mistake. Future M buyers will now opt for Fuji, Olympus, Sony etc etc.

Sep 11, 2024 at 02:26 PM

Mike_5D
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Canon aps-c roll out a joke!!

The M series was popular in Japan. Japan is a very unique market from all I've heard. If they were selling well globally, they'd still be making them.

Sep 11, 2024 at 03:26 PM

AmbientMike
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Canon aps-c roll out a joke!!

Sep 11, 2024 at 03:26 PM

chez
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Canon aps-c roll out a joke!!

Pixelpuffin wrote:
The M series was canons biggest seller
The scope and potential to appeal to non photographers was phenomenal, people like me who are still really interested in taking pictures but not interested enough to blow £6K+ or haul a bag of FF glass all day but who want better than what our phones offer.
I really mourn the loss of the M line, for me it was exciting. I loved the smaller form factor along with the 3 primes 22, 28 and 32mm. A fast 56 and fast 90 would have been amazing. Sigma stepped in with the 56. But the real...Show more →

Don’t know where you get your numbers from, but if they are really true, Canon would still be making the M line. Given Canon has cancelled the M line only tells me your numbers are wrong.

With phones taking out the low end, the only place for camera manufactures is to look up.

Sep 11, 2024 at 04:16 PM

Pixelpuffin
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Canon aps-c roll out a joke!!

chez wrote:
Don’t know where you get your numbers from, but if they are really true, Canon would still be making the M line. Given Canon has cancelled the M line only tells me your numbers are wrong.

With phones taking out the low end, the only place for camera manufactures is to look up.
Nonsense
It’s widely known that throughout Asia the M series was canons biggest seller, as I understand it, it wasn’t as big in the US.

Many say Canon couldn’t run two separate systems and that’s why the M line was discontinued to make way for the RF-s. Problem is buyers who were attracted to the M series are not attracted to the new RF-s series.

Sep 11, 2024 at 04:26 PM

chez
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Canon aps-c roll out a joke!!

Sep 11, 2024 at 04:44 PM

Mike_5D
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Canon aps-c roll out a joke!!

chez wrote:
When you say biggest seller…where are you getting these numbers from? Biggest in number of units? Revenue? Profit? Etc…

Again, if the M was Canon’s “biggest seller”, we’d still be able to buy one. Obviously either Canon’s numbers were wrong or your numbers are wrong.

Biggest seller*

*In Japan, MSRP under $1000, among Japanese APS-C MILC available in white

Sep 11, 2024 at 05:29 PM

chez
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Canon aps-c roll out a joke!!

Mike_5D wrote:
Biggest seller*

*In Japan, MSRP under $1000, among Japanese APS-C MILC available in white

Japan accounts for about 8% of Canon’s imaging revenue.

Sep 11, 2024 at 07:01 PM

Mongrel
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Canon aps-c roll out a joke!!

Pixelpuffin wrote:
Nonsense
It’s widely known that throughout Asia the M series was canons biggest seller, as I understand it, it wasn’t as big in the US.

Many say Canon couldn’t run two separate systems and that’s why the M line was discontinued to make way for the RF-s. Problem is buyers who were attracted to the M series are not attracted to the new RF-s series.

Some perspective…

Former M system owner: M50, Ef to M adapter, EF-M 22, EF-M 32, EF-M 15-45, EF-M 18-55.

I had a decision to make. Dive deeper into the M system or turn to the R, RF system.

The M system went out the door and an R6 and R100 with three RF lenses were welcomed in.

While the M system held some attraction because of it’s petite size, it just wasn’t small enough or good enough to make a big enough difference over the R system to hang onto it-for me.

So, no, not *all* M owners feel the way you do.

Honestly, if I need to go “small” today, it would be with a large sensor, compact Canon or Sony offering.

Sep 11, 2024 at 07:49 PM

mawz
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Canon aps-c roll out a joke!!

Pixelpuffin wrote:
The M series was canons biggest seller
The scope and potential to appeal to non photographers was phenomenal, people like me who are still really interested in taking pictures but not interested enough to blow £6K+ or haul a bag of FF glass all day but who want better than what our phones offer.
I really mourn the loss of the M line, for me it was exciting. I loved the smaller form factor along with the 3 primes 22, 28 and 32mm. A fast 56 and fast 90 would have been amazing. Sigma stepped in with the 56. But the real...Show more →

But what was actually moving in the M system?

Hint - except for maybe the 22/2, it was the kit lenses. M was not selling gangbusters to serious photographers, it was moving boxes to consumers.

At this point the top-selling M gear is largely duplicated in RF-S, except the two EVF-less bodies.

Sep 12, 2024 at 08:44 AM

IlyaSnopchenko
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Canon aps-c roll out a joke!!

I think that technically, the Canon M system was the most half-hearted attempt at a camera system this side of Pentax Q. It sold well not due to how it was, but in spite of it.

Still feels bad to see these prime designs (and the 11-22) sink to the bottom of the ocean of oblivion with that hapless system... at least so far.

Sep 12, 2024 at 09:11 AM

mawz
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Canon aps-c roll out a joke!!

IlyaSnopchenko wrote:
I think that technically, the Canon M system was the most half-hearted attempt at a camera system this side of Pentax Q. It sold well not due to how it was, but in spite of it.

Still feels bad to see these prime designs (and the 11-22) sink to the bottom of the ocean of oblivion with that hapless system... at least so far.

M was a triumph of usability over technical specifications. In no way class leading in spec, but the cameras worked well for the users they were targeted at, at a time where nobody offered anything better, or even as well sorted for those uses.

Sep 12, 2024 at 11:50 AM

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