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Does a "no frills" travel camera exist, Canon or otherwise?

  
 
moondigger
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · Does a "no frills" travel camera exist, Canon or otherwise?


gdanmitchell wrote:
Even those who say that they don’t want frills have different ideas of what is a frill and one is a requirement. One person will say, “Just give me a fully automated camera that doesn’t require me to read a manual or make decisions,” while another will say that frill-free is a fully manual camera with only simple, basic controls.


This is a good point. The OP has stated what he considers "frills," and they're basically those features which might appeal more to a beginner. I suspect many of the folks participating in this discussion would agree that "starry night portrait mode" or "dramatic tone" art filter or "grainy film" simulations are frills we pretty much ignore, or try out once and then never use again.

However, I remember when my sister got her first decent digital camera, she had it parked in 'green' (Full Auto) mode, and learned how to activate the 'flower' (macro) and 'sunset' (landscape) scene modes. She called the other modes (Av, Tv, and M) "extra features" she would never use. So for her, the modes we think of as basic and essential are frills, and the ones we consider superfluous are essential features.



Aug 29, 2024 at 10:57 AM
OregonSun
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · Does a "no frills" travel camera exist, Canon or otherwise?


My favorite "no frills" travel camera is my Original Olympus Pen, circa 1959.

No meter
No battery
Scale focus only
B, 1/25, 1/50, 1/100, 1/200 shutter speeds only




Aug 29, 2024 at 12:57 PM
Mongrel
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · Does a "no frills" travel camera exist, Canon or otherwise?


moondigger wrote

Mongrel wrote
:
I find myself with similar thoughts as the OP, and the R100 for $240 refurbished answered the call and has not disappointed.

Nope. It has ten "scene" shooting modes under the "SCN" position on the dial.




Well, in my defense...(lol)...I did use "trigger", "OCD" and "intentionally" to try and cushion the fact that it does indeed still have the cursed 'scene mode', and went out of my way not to mention that it also has filters (*gasp!*) and a movie camera icon on the mode dial.

The obvious answer being some black fingernail polish to cover the three aforementioned icons. An "out of sight, out of mind" approach being the path of least resistance. How can you access them if they are not there and all...

lol





Aug 29, 2024 at 01:03 PM
moondigger
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · Does a "no frills" travel camera exist, Canon or otherwise?


Mongrel wrote:
The obvious answer being some black fingernail polish to cover the three aforementioned icons. An "out of sight, out of mind" approach being the path of least resistance. How can you access them if they are not there and all...


Yeah, I know and I agree. Nobody uses 100% of the features on any modern camera; we just ignore the ones we don't use. But the OP says he can't do that...



Aug 29, 2024 at 01:08 PM
Mongrel
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · Does a "no frills" travel camera exist, Canon or otherwise?


moondigger wrote:
Yeah, I know and I agree. Nobody uses 100% of the features on any modern camera; we just ignore the ones we don't use. But the OP says he can't do that...


All good...just some friendly busting back and forth.

I can't remember ever even using a scene mode. I had to look at the mode dial before I posted just to refresh my memory. lol

I go from manual to TV to AV and back again unless I give the camera to a family member to play with.



Aug 29, 2024 at 01:18 PM
RoamingScott
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · Does a "no frills" travel camera exist, Canon or otherwise?


This thread is a perfect example of overthinking into a position of paralysis. Get a Ricoh GR and just. go. shoot.


Aug 29, 2024 at 01:20 PM
moondigger
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · Does a "no frills" travel camera exist, Canon or otherwise?


RoamingScott wrote:
This thread is a perfect example of overthinking into a position of paralysis. Get a Ricoh GR and just. go. shoot.


The paralysis is due to the OP's stated requirements.

Ricoh calls their frill modes "Image Atmospheres," which include "Bleach Bypass" and "Retro" (just to pick two examples).



Aug 29, 2024 at 01:29 PM
RoamingScott
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · Does a "no frills" travel camera exist, Canon or otherwise?


moondigger wrote:
The paralysis is due to the OP's stated requirements.

Ricoh calls their frill modes "Image Atmospheres," which include "Bleach Bypass" and "Retro" (just to pick two examples).


If you can't manage to just throw a camera into a mode and not every fiddle with it again, that's not the camera's problem.



Aug 29, 2024 at 01:32 PM
moondigger
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · Does a "no frills" travel camera exist, Canon or otherwise?


RoamingScott wrote:
If you can't manage to just throw a camera into a mode and not every fiddle with it again, that's not the camera's problem.


I agree.



Aug 29, 2024 at 01:34 PM
alundeb
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · Does a "no frills" travel camera exist, Canon or otherwise?


It will work out finding a travel camera, once it is established that the answer to the question is 'No', I think.


Aug 29, 2024 at 02:29 PM
 


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John Power
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · Does a "no frills" travel camera exist, Canon or otherwise?


OK. Thanks to all for their ideas. Just a few closing comments. As to what I refer to as "frills" yes I can just ignore them but I prefer that they not be there to begin with.

As to expense i.e. the Leica option, there are no financial issues for me. I can buy what I want when I want. However, since guitar is far more important to me than photography, with the price I would pay for a Leica and a few lenses I could buy a Gibson L5. There is a nice one for about 9k on Ebay. And I would use it for an hour or two everyday. So I can't justify the price for a Leica.

I have always been focused on quality and simplicity. I loved my Canon 1DMKIIN but sizewise you know the deal.

It appears to me that I will not find exactly what I am looking for so let me ask this. Which lightweight on the small side "travel" cameras that are reasonably priced (2K or less) provide the the best IQ since that probably my first priority.

Or maybe I should just slap a 50mm on my 5D4 (no IQ issue with that camera) and deal with the extra size and weight.

By the way, I am asking this question because after 43 years of practicing law I am scaling way back and intend to basically move from vacation to vacation so I am looking for a good choice of camera to take with me. My G5X is OK but it is about 10 years old and a lot has happened in the "travel" camera since then.

And no, I do not want to take the smart phone route. I want a dedicated camera.



Aug 30, 2024 at 09:15 AM
moondigger
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · Does a "no frills" travel camera exist, Canon or otherwise?


John Power wrote:
It appears to me that I will not find exactly what I am looking for so let me ask this. Which lightweight on the small side "travel" cameras that are reasonably priced (2K or less) provide the the best IQ since that probably my first priority.


You're probably going to need a small set of primes for maximum quality. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, the Canon EF-M 32 f/1.4 is the best normal lens I've used on any lens mount. The Canon 22 f/2 is excellent, as is the Sigma 56 f/1.4. I still think an M50 (or M6 Mark II, if you want more megapixels) with those lenses would provide fantastic IQ overall.

There are similar options from other brands. But my experience with the Canon EF-M system leads me to recommend it despite it being discontinued.

Or maybe I should just slap a 50mm on my 5D4 (no IQ issue with that camera) and deal with the extra size and weight.

There's no normal lens (45-55 mm) available for the EF mount that's as good as the EF-M 32 f/1.4. The Sigma Art 50 is good, though the Art 40 is much better. That said, I find the 40 to be a little too wide to serve as a proper normal lens. I owned the Tamron 45 for a while, and it's also excellent, though I would still say the Canon EF-M 32 f/1.4 is better. (Keeping in mind that a 32 mm lens on APS-C sensor will not match a 50 on a full-frame sensor in terms of shallow depth-of-field. The 50 on full frame will provide shallower depth of field at equivalent apertures.)

I suppose if you want something truly wide and high IQ with the EF-M system, you'll have to weigh the pros and cons of these three options:

1. Canon EF-M 11-22 f/4-5.6 zoom. Pros: Small, high IQ for a zoom, and a nice range of focal lengths. Cons: Not a very fast lens, so not a great choice for low light.

2. Rokinon 12 f/2 NCS CS. Pros: Wide (19 mm full frame equivalent), high IQ, fairly wide aperture. Cons: Manual operation only; you may have to buy and return a few times to get one that isn't decentered.

3. Sigma 16 f/1.4. Pros: Excellent IQ, fast aperture. Cons: Not as wide as either of the other options, with a ~26 mm full-frame equivalent field of view. Bulkier than any of the other lenses mentioned previously. Doesn't really 'blend' with the rest of the lenses, which are all admirably compact.



Aug 30, 2024 at 09:36 AM
reefroamer
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · Does a "no frills" travel camera exist, Canon or otherwise?


My inclusive travel kit, under 4lbs, is an R10, RFS 18-150, RF 100-400 and the tiny RFS 10-18. Sometimes, it’s just the R10 and 18-150 (equivalent of about 28-240 FF), which is good for most things for me. I found the 18-150 and 100-400 were all I really needed on safari, with the 100-400 giving me the FF equivalent of 640mm reach. This R10 and lens trio is very compact, fitting easily into a pretty small backpack with plenty of room for other personal/travel items (chargers, cables, batteries, meds, headphones, rain jacket, etc). It works great for me.


Aug 30, 2024 at 10:21 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · Does a "no frills" travel camera exist, Canon or otherwise?


John Power wrote:
Which lightweight on the small side "travel" cameras that are reasonably priced (2K or less) provide the the best IQ since that probably my first priority.


Let's unpack this a bit, especially the "best IQ" part.

I'm going to start with the presumption (which is widely held by those who use such cameras) that "the best IQ" in isolation may not be the right question to start with.

First of all, it is important to ask what you'll do with the photographs, and even how you'll make them. If you will regularly be shooting from the tripod and producing (what I'll call for convenience) "gallery quality" prints at very large sizes (say 30" x 40") and larger, "the best IQ" becomes a more significant issue.

At the other extreme, if one is going to share the photos with friends and family on social media and in emails and similar, "good IQ" (or even "good enough IQ") is more meaningful standard. Let's say you took images from one of those all-in-one 1" sensor cameras and from a 100MP 33x44 "digital medium format" camera on social media or in email. Generally speaking there will be no significant (and likely no visible) difference between them, even to people who know what to look for. And getting the very big and high-end system for that may well reduce the number and quality of photographs you make since you'll likely tire of carting the big system around while traveling.

On the other hand, if you are making those high-end 30" x 40" prints and your practice is to work very carefully from the tripod, that larger sensor, high end “best IQ” system might produce some useful benefits.

Bottom line, depending on what and how you will photograph and what you'll do with the photographs, there will be a huge range of cameras and lenses that will give you more than enough performance, so limiting to the "best IQ" camera cuts down your options and probably won't make any photographic difference.

As to the "frills," you can just ignore them. That's what all of us do on today's advanced cameras, virtually all of which come with features we don't use. Most of them don't get in your way at all, and there are many that you'll never even be aware of. (For example, I can manually alter the color balance on the raw files in my Fujifilm APS-C camera. That's a frill I don't use. I ignore it.)

I'll stop there for now.

Edited on Aug 30, 2024 at 06:33 PM · View previous versions



Aug 30, 2024 at 12:32 PM
RustyRus
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · Does a "no frills" travel camera exist, Canon or otherwise?


John Power wrote:
Is it possible to buy a travel camera that doesn't have million choices for things I NEVER use? I don't care about "scenes" or fish eye lens effects or toy effects or miniature effects, or taking "star" portraits. It goes on ad nauseam.....

How about one that lets me shoot in auto, aperture, shutter speed and manual modes.

Video capabilities would be nice but I have no intention of trying to re-shoot Gone with the Wind.

My G5x manual is 217 pages!!! For a camera I bring along to take photos of cathedrals; monuments; open air farmer's markets, interesting people and other
...Show more

Check out this thread maybe-

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1859302/7/#lastmessage



Aug 30, 2024 at 12:55 PM
John Power
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · Does a "no frills" travel camera exist, Canon or otherwise?


gdanmitchell wrote:
Let's unpack this a bit, especially the "best IQ" part.

I'm going to start with the presumption (which is widely held by those who use such cameras) that "the best IQ" in isolation may not be the right question to start with.

First of all, it is important to ask what you'll do with the photographs, and even how you'll make them. If you will regularly be shooting from the tripod and producing (what I'll call for convenience) "gallery quality" prints at very large sizes (say 30" x 40") and larger, "the best IQ" becomes a more significant issue.

At the other extreme,
...Show more

Thanks Gdan. I always appreciate your well thought out contributions. Like I said, this is a camera that would be used for taking typical tourist type "vacation" pictures not really intended for print.



Aug 30, 2024 at 04:09 PM
melcat
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · Does a "no frills" travel camera exist, Canon or otherwise?


gdanmitchell wrote:
Let's say you took images from one of those all-in-one 1" sensor cameras and from a 100MP 33x44 "digital medium format" camera on social media or in email. Generally speaking there will be no significant (and likely no visible) difference between them, even to people who know what to look for.


I disagree with this claim. Although the smaller sensor may have enough pixels, it will have a smaller dynamic range, and this will be visible even on recent iPhones, which have very nice screens with a good black point (and a wide gamut too).

As it happens, in the last week I’ve been reprocessing a lot of my images from ten years ago, with photos from the Canon 5D, 1D Mk III and 1Ds Mk III, and the Sony RX10 mixed in together, and the ones from the RX10 leap out as looking “flat”. (The RX10 is the “1-inch” sensor camera I referred to in an earlier post.) It’s long enough ago that I don’t immediately remember what was taken with what camera, so a decent test, All the other cameras are clustered together with similar quality.

Maybe you wouldn’t notice if you haven’t adapted your shooting style from the days of Velvia, and carefully control the scene dynamic range by choosing your time of day and using graduated filters. And maybe you universally process for a low-contrast look anyway if your end product is print.

One might blame the zoom lens on the RX10, despite “Zeiss” being written on the side, but I’ve often seen similar but less extreme “flatness” in micro 4/3 images shot by others, which suggests it is indeed sensor size. That’s consistent with the physics and widely-held and often-stated beliefs among phootgraphers.



Aug 30, 2024 at 08:15 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · Does a "no frills" travel camera exist, Canon or otherwise?


melcat wrote:
I disagree with this claim. Although the smaller sensor may have enough pixels, it will have a smaller dynamic range, and this will be visible even on recent iPhones, which have very nice screens with a good black point (and a wide gamut too).

As it happens, in the last week I’ve been reprocessing a lot of my images from ten years ago, with photos from the Canon 5D, 1D Mk III and 1Ds Mk III, and the Sony RX10 mixed in together, and the ones from the RX10 leap out as looking “flat”. (The RX10 is the “1-inch” sensor camera
...Show more

Think about how that smaller dynamic range plays out. It isn’t that you can’t see things at the dark end of the range, it is that noise becomes a problem sooner. And when you display your images on social media and in email as jpg images you are not getting that full range anyway – that file format has less dynamic range than the raw files from your camera.

And, to take advantage of that extra large dynamic range you’ll need to post process that raw file extensively to bring those shadows back up. Basically those very large DR capabilities don’t map to SOOC images — they preserve image data that you can manipulate in post.

So, back to my primary point, it comes down to how the photographer is going to photograph and what they will do with the images. If someone is doing extensive full-on post processing from raw files, then the higher end camera might make a difference. If one is going to shoot handheld and pump out unprocessed or minimally processed jpgs of their vacation photographs for sharing on the web and in emai on computer monitors, you’ll never see the potential of those higher quality images.

And, again, my main point was that “best IQ” is not the primary requirement for the sort of thing our OP is after. Good IQ is, and there are lots of cameras that will provide that.

I use a high MP FF body for my tripod based work that is intended to be printable at largest sizes on my P9000. But when I travel I leaves, in nearly every case I leave that system behind and take a smaller APS-C system that produces excellent image quality, including reliable 20” x 30” prints and licensable images.

Is it the “best IQ” system. Indeed, it is not. Does it produce excellent IQ? Yes, it does.

BTW, I’ve had prints in shows alongside work done on a range of systems, from BW film to to MFT to APS-C to full frame to MF digital. I’m 100% certain that even with very close inspection almost no one could correctly identify the source of the images. I’ve been fooled myself, including one memorable example where I was impressed to find that the print came from MFT.



Aug 30, 2024 at 11:25 PM
AmbientMike
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · Does a "no frills" travel camera exist, Canon or otherwise?


It's interesting how most film cameras would fit these criteria, but pretty much no digital cameras. Pentax made a lot of different models having Av, M, other brands made a lot, too.

If the op doesn't mind his 5D4 just use the Rebel SL2. People apparently complained about the relative complexity of the Rebel XT even, it didn't make much sense then imo but it does now. Personally I usually use Av (often M for flash) center af point I'm not sure if I ever used the creative modes intentionally since 2005



Aug 30, 2024 at 11:53 PM
melcat
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · Does a "no frills" travel camera exist, Canon or otherwise?


gdanmitchell wrote:
Think about how that smaller dynamic range plays out. It isn’t that you can’t see things at the dark end of the range, it is that noise becomes a problem sooner.


Yes, I assume the noise in the shadows is what causes the perception of “flatness”, as it is usually described, perhaps because it’s effectively dithering.

And when you display your images on social media and in email as jpg images you are not getting that full range anyway – that file format has less dynamic range than the raw files from your camera.

No it doesn’t. The dynamic range is retained, by transforming according to a log curve (hence “gamma”, the log base, and “linear” as in “linear DNG”, the untransformed curve). This does cause a loss of gradation between adjacent brightness values, but the log curve means that the gradation loss is concentrated in brightness values that humans find hard to distinguish anyway.



Aug 31, 2024 at 12:26 AM
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