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Vishnu-Somnath Temple (Goa) & Questions regarding AI

  
 
Rajan Parrikar
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Vishnu-Somnath Temple (Goa) & Questions regarding AI


Vishnu-Somnath Temple on a morning pregnant with thick monsoon air in Khandepar village, Goa.

Both the images below derive from the same exposure. The second image shows what my eyes and the lens saw. As a result of ongoing construction a temporary fence had been placed around the temple perimeter. Using AI Generative fill, I cleaned it up and the result of that operation is seen in the first image.

Photographers routinely clone out distractions in images such as power lines, a strewn soda can, an intruding twig, and so on. So long as one is not fundamentally misrepresenting the extant scene, not disclosing these minor touch-ups is a long standing practice.

What about the current scene? Where do the limits lie? Nothing fundamental has been altered but the AI makes guesses in its fill. Should the photographer come clean in this instance and be upfront with the viewer?

From my latest blog post.







Vishnu-Somnath Temple, AI modified - Khandepar, Goa

  Canon EOS 5DS    EF24-70mm f/2.8L II USM lens    59mm    f/7.1    1/160s    250 ISO    -0.3 EV  







Vishnu-Somnath Temple, original scene - Khandepar, Goa

  Canon EOS 5DS    EF24-70mm f/2.8L II USM lens    59mm    f/7.1    1/160s    250 ISO    -0.3 EV  




Aug 06, 2024 at 10:42 PM
dakel
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Vishnu-Somnath Temple (Goa) & Questions regarding AI


For my work I want to be authentic to myself, which to me means being honest and up front about the use of AI to add or remove content. If other photographers want to do differently that's entirely their prerogative.

However if I were to purchase a print from a photographer, I would want to know that AI was not used to add/remove content. In your example, if I loved the scene or had an emotional attachment to that temple, I would want to buy the one with the fence showing but I would ask if you could desaturate the reds and reduce the brightness slightly, to make the fence less distracting. It's a fine line, I know!




Aug 06, 2024 at 11:30 PM
Rajan Parrikar
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Vishnu-Somnath Temple (Goa) & Questions regarding AI


dakel wrote:
For my work I want to be authentic to myself, which to me means being honest and up front about the use of AI to add or remove content. If other photographers want to do differently that's entirely their prerogative.

However if I were to purchase a print from a photographer, I would want to know that AI was not used to add/remove content. In your example, if I loved the scene or had an emotional attachment to that temple, I would want to buy the one with the fence showing but I would ask if you could desaturate the
...Show more

Derrick,

Thank you for your thoughts on this topic and for the tip on desaturating the red fence.

I should have been more clear - digital art is a valid genre and there one can exercise full freedom in how AI is used. In the current discussion I meant using AI in the context of what we have come to regard conventionally as photographs (as opposed to digital fantasy art).

Even here, as we all know, there is some latitude granted and exercised, such as cloning OUT distractions. The knotty question is, with the new AI tools, how much of generating IN is acceptable before a photograph is no longer a photograph.




Aug 07, 2024 at 12:10 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Vishnu-Somnath Temple (Goa) & Questions regarding AI


At a fundamental level, the image is drawn onto the capture medium by the energy of light transmitted onto it.

This is true whether it is digital, film or otherwise. After that ... the manipulations begin. That ranges from exposure and tonal adjustments to WB and saturation adjustments, those mostly covering the HSL (Hue, Saturation, Luminance) aspects of the image. In that regard, those are adjustments ... neither additions to, nor subtractions from the material construct.

Going back to the PROCESS of film, (et al), the capture is of a set amount onto the negative. The process of making a print, involves a host of different choices regarding how to present (beginning with film stock > chemistry > paper > exposure > D&B > masking > etc. the aesthetic of the capture, that was drawn by the light on to the medium.

At that point, the retention of what was drawn by light for the construction of the image remains essentially intact.

Now, enter the photographer and the (temporary) pimple. At this point, alterations (i.e. different from adjustments) to the image drawn by the light are effecting the material construction of the image. This now is the (imo) turning point at which the "ethical" aspects of the manipulative finishing aspects of the process begin.

The tools for manipulating the material construct of the image have evolved from manual efforts in the darkroom via multiple exposures (thinking of Adolf Fassbender) to produce images from a series of photographs ... to where we know have automated computer generated additions / subtractions of material construction.

The array of directions / perspectives that the subject embarks on can be vast ... and I certainly have my own opinions on what constitutes propriety. This takes me back to when I was being taught about how Ansel Adams used D&B techniques to achieve is imagery. My exclamation to my instructor was "HE CHEATS !!!", as I was an ardent chrome shooter (who had been futile in my attempts to emulate Adams style in camera).

It took me a long time to come to understand the difference between the capture and the print. I was a "late student", my formal studies brought me to the concept of "image making" ... whether that image be via a pencil, brush or lens. In the end, we are creating an image ... of our own choosing. Our tools are different (and evolving), but at the end of the day, we are still crafting our image, to convey what it is we want to convey.

As to the ethics of whether or not the presented image is materially the same construct as the capture (or as seen), that has been going on for a long time. Imo, things like PJ, sports, events, forensics harken to retention of the material construct as captured. At the end of the day, we put our name on our work ... the images we created. The tools and methods we choose to employ / deploy to arrive at our crafted image remain in our arsenal of choices. The decision to work like a magician and "never divulge" vs. like an "accountant" and always divulge ... that's a personal choice, where folks draw the line.

A magician, deceives for entertainment, while deception from an accountant is not perceived nearly so well.

As we create our images through the process of light > lens > finishing, I think the ethics of it lay in the realm of whether we ascribing to entertain through our creative processes or be factual (as possible) to the original, optical projection.

I didn't answer the question, directly ... but, I think the answer lies in the intent (and the harm / not) that comes from divulging / not divulging to tools involved, particularly as that pertains to ones own credibility.

Just some .02 on a perpetual matter that exists in our beloved craft. It's an age old question, that will always be with us as we are make images originating from the "drawn with light" photographic process. The AI additions available to the process ... remind me of shooting monochrome, and then hand tinting the print with paint. Meaning, we can do whatever we want in the realm of image making.

How far we extend beyond the "drawn with light" of a single capture ... that's a personal, artistic, creative (i.e. we are creating something) decision. The more we "create" of the image, the farther we extend from the origins of "drawn with light" ... to "drawn with light", plus other stuff.

Yeah, it's a question that's been with us for a long while, with each iterative, technological advancement and application as an adjunct to the origins of "drawn with light". And, it's gonna be around for a while, yet to come.




Aug 07, 2024 at 07:59 AM
Bill Gass
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Vishnu-Somnath Temple (Goa) & Questions regarding AI


I love AI, especially for skies...
I think it's good most of the time to say you used AI.
I think the 2nd image looks great in my opinion.



Aug 07, 2024 at 10:09 AM
junglialoh
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Vishnu-Somnath Temple (Goa) & Questions regarding AI


Beautiful contrast images - well done



Aug 07, 2024 at 05:15 PM
gmansam
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Vishnu-Somnath Temple (Goa) & Questions regarding AI


Beautiful image! I am traveling to Japan soon and hoping to get photos like this of the shrines there!


Aug 07, 2024 at 06:55 PM
Rajan Parrikar
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Vishnu-Somnath Temple (Goa) & Questions regarding AI


Rusty, Bill, Jung, Grant - thank you, all.


Aug 08, 2024 at 10:59 PM
Danpbphoto
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Vishnu-Somnath Temple (Goa) & Questions regarding AI


I love both.
A great discussion on "photographic ethics".

I would want the photographer to advise me if AI was used in any portion of an image.

Personally, if it were my image, I would have used Ps and cloned out the red fence. I would have presented the image in its edited form and probably not divulged that I used the "clone" or "eraser tool" to edit the image.
The fence is an obstruction to my view....removes some of the beauty of the lushness of the jungle and the starkness of the temple. Makes the subject more "private&remote" versus modern and needs work!.

Great work amigo!
Dan



Aug 09, 2024 at 09:15 AM
Rajan Parrikar
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Vishnu-Somnath Temple (Goa) & Questions regarding AI


Danpbphoto wrote:
I love both.
A great discussion on "photographic ethics".

I would want the photographer to advise me if AI was used in any portion of an image.

Personally, if it were my image, I would have used Ps and cloned out the red fence. I would have presented the image in its edited form and probably not divulged that I used the "clone" or "eraser tool" to edit the image.
The fence is an obstruction to my view....removes some of the beauty of the lushness of the jungle and the starkness of the temple. Makes the subject more "private&remote" versus modern and needs
...Show more

Thank you, amigo Dan, for your considered thoughts.



Aug 09, 2024 at 09:25 AM
 


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Danpbphoto
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Vishnu-Somnath Temple (Goa) & Questions regarding AI


Rajan Parrikar wrote:
Thank you, amigo Dan, for your considered thoughts.

You must give me a tutorial on how to use "AI" amigo! I had a bit more of a different idea on AI and how it is used.
Personally I would not consider the image altered or created enough to say anything is "artificial".
Thanks again!
Dan




Aug 09, 2024 at 09:31 AM
Rajan Parrikar
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Vishnu-Somnath Temple (Goa) & Questions regarding AI


Danpbphoto wrote:
You must give me a tutorial on how to use "AI" amigo! I had a bit more of a different idea on AI and how it is used.
Personally I would not consider the image altered or created enough to say anything is "artificial".
Thanks again!
Dan




There's really nothing to it. You can watch the first 4 mins of this video and you'll be up to speed -




This video was made when the Generative Fill feature was in Photoshop Beta. Now it is in Photoshop proper.




Aug 09, 2024 at 09:38 AM
chez
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Vishnu-Somnath Temple (Goa) & Questions regarding AI



Danpbphoto wrote:
I love both.
A great discussion on "photographic ethics".

I would want the photographer to advise me if AI was used in any portion of an image.

Personally, if it were my image, I would have used Ps and cloned out the red fence. I would have presented the image in its edited form and probably not divulged that I used the "clone" or "eraser tool" to edit the image.
The fence is an obstruction to my view....removes some of the beauty of the lushness of the jungle and the starkness of the temple. Makes the subject more "private&remote" versus modern and needs
...Show more

I personally don’t see a difference in using AI tools to remove the fencing versus manually cloning out the fence…both result with that temporary fence being removed from the image.

As far as the photographer disclosing this, I don’t think that is necessary as much of the post processing work changes the image from what is really there. If the processing results in an image that doesn’t look realistic, then I just move along. If the image shows realism, then I really don’t care how the artist got there.



Aug 09, 2024 at 10:34 AM
Danpbphoto
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Vishnu-Somnath Temple (Goa) & Questions regarding AI


chez wrote:
I personally don’t see a difference in using AI tools to remove the fencing versus manually cloning out the fence…both result with that temporary fence being removed from the image.

As far as the photographer disclosing this, I don’t think that is necessary as much of the post processing work changes the image from what is really there. If the processing results in an image that doesn’t look realistic, then I just move along. If the image shows realism, then I really don’t care how the artist got there.


Yeah I agree ..sort of like the old Civil War political character less the politics.... called a "Mugwump". But if the image is radically transposed or created, I might wish to know that.









Aug 09, 2024 at 10:52 AM
Danpbphoto
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Vishnu-Somnath Temple (Goa) & Questions regarding AI


Rajan Parrikar wrote:
There's really nothing to it. You can watch the first 4 mins of this video and you'll be up to speed -



This video was made when the Generative Fill feature was in Photoshop Beta. Now it is in Photoshop proper.



Thanks amigo! Just what I needed.



Aug 09, 2024 at 11:01 AM
Rajan Parrikar
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Vishnu-Somnath Temple (Goa) & Questions regarding AI


chez wrote:
I personally don’t see a difference in using AI tools to remove the fencing versus manually cloning out the fence…both result with that temporary fence being removed from the image.

As far as the photographer disclosing this, I don’t think that is necessary as much of the post processing work changes the image from what is really there. If the processing results in an image that doesn’t look realistic, then I just move along. If the image shows realism, then I really don’t care how the artist got there.


Harry, thanks for your perspective.




Aug 09, 2024 at 10:18 PM
KLaban
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Vishnu-Somnath Temple (Goa) & Questions regarding AI


Hi Rajan, I'm comfortable cloning out small imperfections and details but I'm not at all comfortable using automated programs.

The former is using my own retouching skills, the latter isn't.



Aug 10, 2024 at 06:36 AM
Rajan Parrikar
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Vishnu-Somnath Temple (Goa) & Questions regarding AI


KLaban wrote:
Hi Rajan, I'm comfortable cloning out small imperfections and details but I'm not at all comfortable using automated programs.

The former is using my own retouching skills, the latter isn't.


Keith, good that you have placed here your point of view.



Aug 10, 2024 at 10:06 AM
Jim Dockery
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Vishnu-Somnath Temple (Goa) & Questions regarding AI


In this example I prefer the fenceless version, but the original is fine too. I'm with the group that feels "significant" alteration should be disclosed, but then the question is what is significant? Twig or trash removal? Hair color change? (I've changed my ski partners coats to make them stand out more). Adding elements, such as sky replacement, takes it to the disclosure point IMO. I've recently been moving some birds from one part of a picture to another, or copying a better wing position from a sequence and pasting it over the same bird's picture with a better background later in the sequence. Even though this seems minor, on our forums here I disclose the manipulation.


Aug 10, 2024 at 11:34 AM
Rajan Parrikar
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Vishnu-Somnath Temple (Goa) & Questions regarding AI


Jim Dockery wrote:
In this example I prefer the fenceless version, but the original is fine too. I'm with the group that feels "significant" alteration should be disclosed, but then the question is what is significant? Twig or trash removal? Hair color change? (I've changed my ski partners coats to make them stand out more). Adding elements, such as sky replacement, takes it to the disclosure point IMO. I've recently been moving some birds from one part of a picture to another, or copying a better wing position from a sequence and pasting it over the same bird's picture with a better
...Show more

Thank you, Jim, for dropping your thoughts. Yes, no easy to clear-cut answers (in the marginal cases), each one of us has to make a personal call.



Aug 12, 2024 at 01:27 AM







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