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Second Shooting questions about contract, scope, insurance, photo rights

static age
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Second Shooting questions about contract, scope, insurance, photo rights

So I've never second shot a wedding before (under a true contract), and this one has been a bit sketched out.

I feel like a lot of the contact is making more out to be having the responsibilities of what would be the main photographer. I'm not under their insurance or liability, I have to invoice them to get paid (only after I upload my images to their cloud service).

They pay is crap ($30/hour) but I wanted it for more portfolio building and experience. However, it looks like I can't use the images without expressed written consent.

Please tell me if I'm overreacting? I've been waiting for this contract for a month now. I got it this morning, and the wedding is on Saturday.

● Directing Scenes: Actively directing subjects and guests to capture dynamic, emotionally resonant scenes. This involves suggesting specific actions, movements, or expressions to enhance the narrative and visual appeal of the photographs.
● Posing Guidance: Offering guidance on posing to ensure that each shot is composed in a manner that is both flattering for the subjects and cohesive with the overall aesthetic vision of the project.

The Contractor’s directorial approach should aim to create a relaxed and enjoyable atmosphere for the subjects, thereby facilitating natural, authentic interactions that translate into compelling photographic content. By skillfully directing the shoot, the Contractor plays a crucial role in realizing the vision of the
Client and delivering photographic content that meets or exceeds the established technical and aesthetic standards.

Liability and Insurance
The Contractor is solely responsible for the safeguarding of their equipment and materials during the execution of services under this Agreement. Additionally, the Contractor bears full liability for any damage or harm that may be caused in the process of providing photography services. Both parties have the option to insure their respective liabilities subject to mutual agreement. This clause ensures that any potential risks associated with the provision of services, including but not limited to, damage to equipment, loss of materials, or any harm caused to third parties, are managed responsibly by the Contractor. The Contractor's obligation to maintain their equipment and assume liability for damages underscores the importance of professional conduct and adherence to safety standards
throughout the service delivery process. Insurance coverage is encouraged as a means to mitigate the financial impact of unforeseen events that may occur during the performance of the Contractor’s duties. Should either party decide to undertake insurance coverage for their respective liabilities, the terms and extent of such insurance shall be discussed and agreed upon by both parties, ensuring that both the Contractor and the Client are adequately protected against potential risks. This provision is intended to promote a culture of responsibility and risk management, ensuring that all aspects of the service provision are conducted with the utmost care and regard for safety and quality standards.

Jul 11, 2024 at 07:52 AM

static age
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Second Shooting questions about contract, scope, insurance, photo rights

I can send the full contract to people if it may help.

Jul 11, 2024 at 07:54 AM

LeeSimms
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Second Shooting questions about contract, scope, insurance, photo rights

We pay our seconds 65usd/hr and welcome them to use images for portfolio use — we ask them not to use the clients name or the venue name online.

I wouldn't sign this.

Jul 11, 2024 at 08:36 AM

static age
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Second Shooting questions about contract, scope, insurance, photo rights

LeeSimms wrote:
We pay our seconds 65usd/hr and welcome them to use images for portfolio use — we ask them not to use the clients name or the venue name online.

I wouldn't sign this.

Can I send you the contract? He is very adamant that this is a standard industry contact.

Jul 11, 2024 at 10:17 AM

johnld
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Second Shooting questions about contract, scope, insurance, photo rights

Usually the venue requires liability ins. from the photographer to cover the venue. I would assume if you're a second shooter then you're covered under the primary photographer, but apparently he wants to be covered too. At some point, join an organization like the PPA and get equipment coverage and the option of liability ins. when you you become the primary photographer. $30/hr. is not very generous, but it's probably dependent on the overall budget of the couple and your experience with weddings. As a second, I would imagine your shooting from various angles during the ceremony, cocktails, and reception, so don't need to direct or pose so much. Family, bridal and sunsets are most likely handled by the primary who should know how to pose and direct the couple. However, learning to pose and direct large groups, couples and intimates does take some experience and I encourage learning those skills too.

Jul 11, 2024 at 01:18 PM

LeeSimms
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Second Shooting questions about contract, scope, insurance, photo rights

> Can I send you the contract? He is very adamant that this is a standard industry contact.

I'm not an attorney and shouldn't be reviewing contracts. FWIW, there is no 'standard' for associate shooters / 2nd photographers. If there was, he'd be paying more.

Just tell him your not comfortable with the rate or the mother-may-I stance with the using the work for portfolio — plus, you don't have liability insurance at the moment.

I know it sucks, but sometimes business opportunities really aren't.

Jul 11, 2024 at 03:08 PM

static age
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Second Shooting questions about contract, scope, insurance, photo rights

LeeSimms wrote:
> Can I send you the contract? He is very adamant that this is a standard industry contact.

I'm not an attorney and shouldn't be reviewing contracts. FWIW, there is no 'standard' for associate shooters / 2nd photographers. If there was, he'd be paying more.

Just tell him your not comfortable with the rate or the mother-may-I stance with the using the work for portfolio — plus, you don't have liability insurance at the moment.

I know it sucks, but sometimes business opportunities really aren't.

I just wanted you to see if it's similar to what you use that's all. As I've never had a contract like this before. I didn't want you to pick it apart line by line. Just like a "yeah it's similar to what I've used / seen" or "no that's a lot more stipulations."

If you don't want to, that's fine and understandable.

Or if you're willing, would you share your contract with me and I'll make the comparisons?

Jul 11, 2024 at 07:13 PM

RickPJ
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Second Shooting questions about contract, scope, insurance, photo rights

I claim no particular expertise in this but I would be reluctant to do the event under the conditions of the contract. I completely agree with LeeSimms.

Your reason for doing it, building your portfolio, will not be served anyway. You may learn something from the first shooter but you may not.

Another thing comes to mind. You got this contract on Thursday and the most important event of the customer's life so far is on Saturday. There has, presumably, been no planning session with the primary. He/she has not explained what, where and who you are supposed to shoot. You have not seen the venue and will not see it until you are in the fray, so to speak. At least in this regard, what you are likely to learn is how to shoot a wedding unprepared. I know some don't do it but I would not undertake even the work of a second shooter if I had not had the opportunity to stake out the venue or, at least, received a list of the specific shots the primary wants me to get. This could be done by arriving very early and preparing yourself.

The no insurance thing is a bit of a big deal. I think that ought to be on the primary shooter to get. It costs very little to add a second shooter to the primary's one-event insurance and I would assume it is baked in to his/her permanent policy. It would be foolish for them to not have protection for seconds. One policy that covers most risks for a single event costs less than $100.00 and the second shooter can be added for $15.00. Permanent policies probably cost even less. Going without is not a wise choice IMO.

Maybe this is not the opportunity you are looking for. Surely, if you look around in the Raleigh area, you will find someone to mentor you. I would pass on this one.

Jul 11, 2024 at 09:45 PM

johnld
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Second Shooting questions about contract, scope, insurance, photo rights

I would just go and shoot the wedding and use the experience and knowledge gained for the next one. As you get more experience, you can negotiate a better rate. As mentioned, most seconds are shooting different angles of the same scene as the primary until reception where you can have a more relaxed style. Often times, when the primary is shooting family, formals, etc. The second is shooting candids at cocktail hour, but if not, shoot different angles of the family, bridal party, etc. and learn from the primary photographer.

Jul 12, 2024 at 09:38 AM

ronchau
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Second Shooting questions about contract, scope, insurance, photo rights

I am a new wedding photographer. Been doing 2nd shooting for a little over a year. Work mostly with large national companies.

The rate is the rate. I assume you knew the rate when you agreed to do the shoot, before the formal contract arrived ?

All the items you listed are in the contracts with the companies I have worked with. Written consent to use images, required to have my own insurance, etc..

I know photographers that have used images w/o written permission and had no repercussions. I have my own insurance, but have not been asked to provide a coi.

I would discuss your concerns with the primary. Leaving them to find a 2nd shooter on such short notice, will put them in a difficult situation.

Jul 12, 2024 at 04:14 PM

static age
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Second Shooting questions about contract, scope, insurance, photo rights

ronchau wrote:
I am a new wedding photographer. Been doing 2nd shooting for a little over a year. Work mostly with large national companies.

The rate is the rate. I assume you knew the rate when you agreed to do the shoot, before the formal contract arrived ?

All the items you listed are in the contracts with the companies I have worked with. Written consent to use images, required to have my own insurance, etc..

I know photographers that have used images w/o written permission and had no repercussions. I have my own insurance, but have not been asked to provide a coi.

I...Show more →

It's not my fault it took him weeks to send me a contract. For how low the pay was, I was willing to do it for the use of the pictures. This didn't come out until I saw the contract yesterday. This main / owner shouldn't have been so late with providing anything. It took him weeks to get back to me to say he would want me. It took him weeks to get me the contract. I had to ask for it, and it still took him weeks to get it to me. As far as insurance, the other people I've talked to said they added their second shooter to their policy for the event.

Jul 12, 2024 at 05:51 PM

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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Second Shooting questions about contract, scope, insurance, photo rights

johnld wrote:
I would just go and shoot the wedding and use the experience and knowledge gained for the next one. As you get more experience, you can negotiate a better rate. As mentioned, most seconds are shooting different angles of the same scene as the primary until reception where you can have a more relaxed style. Often times, when the primary is shooting family, formals, etc. The second is shooting candids at cocktail hour, but if not, shoot different angles of the family, bridal party, etc. and learn from the primary photographer.

I'm not worried necessarily about the experience. I've shot a wedding by myself, and a couple as either second shooter, or unofficial when the one photographer they had was having trouble. I need the pictures for my portfolio so I can attract more clients for secondary work. If I can't use the photos, the event is meaningless to me. I don't want to risk $10k worth of camera equipment for $180 and no dinner.

Jul 12, 2024 at 05:56 PM

ronchau
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Second Shooting questions about contract, scope, insurance, photo rights

static age wrote:
It's not my fault it took him weeks to send me a contract. For how low the pay was, I was willing to do it for the use of the pictures. This didn't come out until I saw the contract yesterday. This main / owner shouldn't have been so late with providing anything. It took him weeks to get back to me to say he would want me. It took him weeks to get me the contract. I had to ask for it, and it still took him weeks to get it to me. As far as insurance, the...Show more →

I am not saying it is your fault. The terms listed are the same I have seen in my contracts with several different national companies. I am suggesting you talk with the primary to discuss options and not just flat decline. Give them the opportunity to add you to their insurance and discuss usage.

It is typical to have strict terms in contracts. Companies can enforce as needed. If you use the photos and it causes no harm, many companies look the other way. If you use the photos and it does cause a problem, they can fall back on the contract and say they never gave you written permission.

Jul 13, 2024 at 01:23 AM

ACHILLEAS-V
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Second Shooting questions about contract, scope, insurance, photo rights

If you are already a freelancer and pay taxes why take this job? never do that. Their demands are insane. You have to own exactly what the do and you will be judged for that. You have to do exactly what they do and you will be judged for that. You get paid much less than them. What do you gain? Portfolio is a poor excuse. Do it alone.

Jul 13, 2024 at 02:16 AM

RickPJ
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Second Shooting questions about contract, scope, insurance, photo rights

ronchau wrote:
I am not saying it is your fault. The terms listed are the same I have seen in my contracts with several different national companies. I am suggesting you talk with the primary to discuss options and not just flat decline. Give them the opportunity to add you to their insurance and discuss usage.

It is typical to have strict terms in contracts. Companies can enforce as needed. If you use the photos and it causes no harm, many companies look the other way. If you use the photos and it does cause a problem, they can fall back on the...Show more →

This cavalier attitude toward copyright and use of someone's image without permission is fraught with danger in my opinion. Why put yourself in the position of having your reputation tarnished at best and getting sued at worst, for the sake of your portfolio? If push comes to shove you can do a couple of free or cheap weddings to build your portfolio. Or work with someone who will have your best interests in mind.

Nothing ever goes wrong until it does. If that guy who didn't prepare for this wedding (it appears) botches up the job, or if you have a bridezilla on your hands, all of the bets are off. Nothing goes wrong until a battery falls out of your pocket and someone trips on it. Then out comes this contract and, at the very best, you have a lawyer bill.

By the time this is posted you will have done the wedding, or not, I suppose. Please don't leave us hanging and tell us what you decided and what your experience of the event was. Best of luck either way.

Jul 13, 2024 at 08:46 AM

johnld
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Second Shooting questions about contract, scope, insurance, photo rights

static age wrote:
I'm not worried necessarily about the experience. I've shot a wedding by myself, and a couple as either second shooter, or unofficial when the one photographer they had was having trouble. I need the pictures for my portfolio so I can attract more clients for secondary work. If I can't use the photos, the event is meaningless to me. I don't want to risk $10k worth of camera equipment for $180 and no dinner.

If you were going to do this for free for your portfolio then it's no use complaining about the rate. If you can't use the photos for your portfolio, then there's no reason to take on the job.

Jul 13, 2024 at 08:48 AM

ronchau
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Second Shooting questions about contract, scope, insurance, photo rights

RickPJ wrote:
This cavalier attitude toward copyright and use of someone's image without permission is fraught with danger in my opinion. Why put yourself in the position of having your reputation tarnished at best and getting sued at worst, for the sake of your portfolio? If push comes to shove you can do a couple of free or cheap weddings to build your portfolio. Or work with someone who will have your best interests in mind.

Nothing ever goes wrong until it does. If that guy who didn't prepare for this wedding (it appears) botches up the job, or if you have a...Show more →

The OP stated written consent is required. Why is this so bad ? All the national companies I work for have this in the contract. Wait xxx number of days, no listing of names or locations, promotional use only, written consent required. You ask for consent, perhaps the company or primary would like to check to see how you will use and consent is given or not. If the company or primary thinks the use is appropriate and wants to work with you again, they will give consent.

I understand we all want contract terms to be in our favor, but terms that are fair to both parties is more realistic.

Jul 13, 2024 at 10:31 AM

RickPJ
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Second Shooting questions about contract, scope, insurance, photo rights

ronchau wrote:
The OP stated written consent is required. Why is this so bad ? All the national companies I work for have this in the contract. Wait xxx number of days, no listing of names or locations, promotional use only, written consent required. You ask for consent, perhaps the company or primary would like to check to see how you will use and consent is given or not. If the company or primary thinks the use is appropriate and wants to work with you again, they will give consent.

I understand we all want contract terms to be in our favor,...Show more →

I don't think consent is bad. I think it is good. And I think it should be agreed upon up front. It has not been. So the net result is that this second shooter is to be working for a pittance, without insurance or any indication that he will be allowed to use any of his work. So by the time he buys a one day policy, which he most surely ought to have and is required to have by contract, he is working for nearly nothing. It simply does not serve his purposes.

Jul 13, 2024 at 10:53 AM

ronchau
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Second Shooting questions about contract, scope, insurance, photo rights

RickPJ wrote:
I don't think consent is bad. I think it is good. And I think it should be agreed upon up front. It has not been. So the net result is that this second shooter is to be working for a pittance, without insurance or any indication that he will be allowed to use any of his work. So by the time he buys a one day policy, which he most surely ought to have and is required to have by contract, he is working for nearly nothing. It simply does not serve his purposes.

This is true assuming the OP discussed it with the primary and was denied. We don't know if the OP asked or not.

Curious, what kind of consent and pay is given to photographers with little experience you never worked with before ? What kind of experience and how many weddings do you expect your 2nd photographer to have ? Is showing your work privately the same as showing on a public website ?

I hear and agree with all the comments everyone is saying, but as a new wedding photographer myself (1yr experience, 20 weddings), getting hired is not easy. The national companies, with the same terms the OP has listed, has been the best way to build my portfolio and gain experience.

Jul 13, 2024 at 09:08 PM

RickPJ
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Second Shooting questions about contract, scope, insurance, photo rights

Tell us how it went.

Jul 15, 2024 at 08:49 AM

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