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FPS / Burst / Cards in Electronic R5

Scott Stoness
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · FPS / Burst / Cards in Electronic R5

I am way slow to the game, because I am not a bird shooter, and this has likely been covered. However even after 2 years, it's still a new issue to me.

I have been shooting grizzlies lots lately, and have employed the electronic mode on my R5 because i) its silent and does not annoy the grizzlies as much, ii) it gets me high fps (20) that capture standing behaviour that happens infrequently and ends quickly. I have long known that this drops me down from 14 bit to 12 bit (mechanical vs electronic) but I have also read that 12bit is pretty even with 14 bit at high iso's and the grizzlies are only worthwhile (dark on black dynamic range) in dusk and dawn anyway requiring high iso's. Further 20fps is too fast really for bears and requires too much culling - 12fps would be adequate, but the speed mode only controls how many shots in quick shutter stab, the R5 remains at 20fps in electronic.

On a couple of occasions I have encountered stutters and 3s lock outs - because my buffer is full. I have a Delkin 128gb Power (rated at 850 sustained write) and a Delkin Black 150gb (rated at 1480 sustained write). I have also filled the card and flipped over to my Kingston 128gb Canvas react plus SD card (100 sustained write). And I was wondering whether I should buy a Angelbird AV PRO CFexpress SX 160GB ($180cdn). The Ordinary film maker, has tested Anglebird AV Pro CFExpress SX and concluded:
- Specifies that it meets 1480 sustained write
- On EFCS (12fps / 12 bit) it shoots continuously forever. Good for less culling but worse on camera wear.
- In electronic it shoots about 300 stills (10s) before hitting buffer and then clears after 1s or so [I must have mixed up EFCS and electronic - my tests show ~130/4.5s stills/clear not 300/1 in electronic. 300/1 might be possible at 12fps EFCS.]

https:

My Delkin Black, in theory has the same same sustained write about 1500 (as the Angelbird sx). I tested it and only got about 87 pictures before the buffer interfered with my shooting. There were some really brief pauses about 65 but it was okay to 87 - and they the buffer took 5 s to clear. My Power (800 sustained rating) got about 85 before really slowing down after hitting buffer and recovered in about 5s). ] My observations were that the Black was better but only modestly so even though it was way higher sustain write rated. My Kingston 128 (rated 100) got about the same(not stuttering too badly) 85pictures but took 10s to clear. My Kingston 128 Canvas sd got about 170 before the buffer was annoying in craw. So I am not really seeing big benefit in better cards other than buffer clear differences between sd and cfexpress.

[The above was in good light. Kingston Canvas SD got 50 and cleared in 8s in lower light. Delkin Power got 64 before any stutter at all and was in and out continuously thereafter (still useful but lessor fps), and cleared in 4s. Delkin Black got 68 before any stutter at all and was useful thereafter, and cleared in about 4s - and ~118 before stutter in craw but then took its time for buffer clear. Marginal differences except for buffer clear between SD and CfExpress]

The 2nd thing I wonder about is whether I should switch to efcs 12fps for 14bit and less culling. Bears don't move that much. But EFCS wears the shutter and its noisy. So I prefer electronic (12 bit).

My questions are:

1) Anyone have the Anglebird AV Pro CFexpress 160gb SX?
2) Does it really get to 300ish before stuttering?[ I am not keen if its just another 85 shot card because R5 is limiting not card and I should spend my money on a 512gb slower card because the buffer performance increase is not significant] [see below answer is NO its ~80]
3) Does it really clear in ~1second? [ see below answer is NO its 4.5s]
4) Any better strategies to get slower fps / bigger buffer? Craw got me to 160shots before stuttering in good light, but then required a longer buffer clear. Is the CRAW (compression) / electronic 12 bit combination, a 'does not matter' item at higher ISO's. [ see below answer is - likely does not matter at iso 6400, but it might at iso 400 for the sake of 130 minus 80 frames. So the answer is if you want to have higher dynamic range at iso 400 or so, don't go craw]
5) Anyone disagree with 12bit (electronic) at high iso does not matter? [answer below no above iso 800 which I am rarely below with wildlife ]
[ grand answer - get the SE 512 Anglebird over the Sx 160gb because the R5 is not capable of taking advantage of Sx, they are similarly priced, and 512gb is better than 160gb. Delkin Black and Power are just as good, ignoring price and GB. The posted write speeds of other manufacturers are instantaneous - don't buy a card unless you see test results. Although the R5/Angelbirds sx [Delkin Black can too] can do 300 frames or longer in EFCS, I don't want to use EFCS [12fps] for noise and camera wear. I could solve this challenge (noise, buffer, not missing a shot] by using pre capture burst on my R8 at 40fps but 24mpx does not leave much for cropping and I am typically reach limited even at 800mm. ]

Your comments would be appreciated.

Scott

My Pursuit - only looking the right direction with the right expression - 12k ISO

Another Pursuit - happens quickly and not for long - 10k ISO

Edited on Jul 10, 2024 at 01:25 AM · View previous versions

Jul 07, 2024 at 01:45 PM

rscheffler
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · FPS / Burst / Cards in Electronic R5

A lot of this I can't comment on because I don't use the R5.

For some of my sports coverage with the R6II, it's constrained by a small buffer. If I want to shoot RAW at high fps, I basically have to use CRAW to roughly double the number of frames I am able shoot before the buffer fills. This is particularly valuable to me if I want to shoot at 40fps.

I have not noticed any obvious image quality tradeoffs by combining 12-bit capture with lossy RAW in general (other than 12 bits clips faster than 14 bits at low ISO and high dynamic range situations) and nothing noticeable at high ISOs. Indeed, dynamic range above ISO ~1600 will be minimal between EFCS and e-shutter. I also run these files through Adobe's Denoise which would offset visually perceivable issues, if you like the way Denoise processes images.

At this point, you have to decide what is more important: ultimate image quality or ability to keep on the subject for longer periods and the chance of capturing more images of key moments. For me with sports, I always pick the latter because the image quality tradeoff is generally difficult to perceive in normal viewing situations.

Jul 07, 2024 at 05:47 PM

Scott Stoness
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · FPS / Burst / Cards in Electronic R5

rscheffler wrote:
A lot of this I can't comment on because I don't use the R5.

For some of my sports coverage with the R6II, it's constrained by a small buffer. If I want to shoot RAW at high fps, I basically have to use CRAW to roughly double the number of frames I am able shoot before the buffer fills. This is particularly valuable to me if I want to shoot at 40fps.

I have not noticed any obvious image quality tradeoffs by combining 12-bit capture with lossy RAW in general (other than 12 bits clips faster than 14 bits at low...Show more →

Thanks rscheffler. it's helpful to me to have your confirmation that 12 bit is an okay choice. I appreciate the advice.

I would rather have the chance of capturing more images at key moments. Which makes me inclined to buy the Angelbird sx if it actually delivers a gain in buffer. But based on my SD and two CFe cards, it does not seem likely that the angel birds will outperform the Delkin Blacks, based on specifications. But the reviewer (Ordinary filmmaker ) says that I could achieve 300frames as compared to my 150 that the Delkin Black is giving me.

So if anyone has an Angelbird or other card that enables 200 frames in 10s with 1s to clear buffer, in electronic, I would appreciate the confirmation or contrary view.

Jul 08, 2024 at 01:12 AM

koenkooi
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · FPS / Burst / Cards in Electronic R5

On my R5 I could only spot a difference between RAW and CRAW for extreme low light shots (ISO 25600, 1/80s) and running them through DxO for noise reduction. The shadows were crushed a bit more in CRAW. Outside that scenario, I have found no differences when doing side-by-side comparisons. So for me, it's CRAW all the way, unless I set up a camera trap in my garden at night.

As for the write speeds, the R5 can't (or won't) write faster than approximately 500MByte/s, so swapping cards to go from 800MB/s to 1400MB/s won't have as much of an impact as you would expect.
It will come down to which card handles the way Canon writes data to disk better, and that can only be tested on the camera itself. Formatting the cards before each outing also helps, on my 128G Sony Tough CFe card that added about 10 extra shots. I hadn't formatted that card in months, so YMMV.

For the 14-bit vs 12-bit crossover, photons-to-photos shows that the R5 reaches that point around ISO800, the R6II/R8 around ISO3200. So if you're above ISO800 on the R5, you're not missing out on bits/DR, only on rolling shutter when using ES. And for slow moving things, rolling shutter tends to be a non-issue on the R5.

Jul 08, 2024 at 04:23 AM

Scott Stoness
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · FPS / Burst / Cards in Electronic R5

review angle bird 160 sx
4.5s buffer clear
~80 before stutter in raw
~127 before stutter in craw
way better than Sandisk that he tested as reference which had heat or queue slowdowns

His results are consistent with my tests above.

Which suggests

- sx (1400 sustained write) is not that helpful because of the limitations of the R5. The Delkin Power 128 (800 sustained write) basically achieved the same amount (80frames, 4.5s clear). And the big gain is not more shots before buffer fill, but in time to clear buffer (4.5s CFExpress vs 10s on Kingston canvas sd).

- The angle bird sx (1400 sustained write) is likely a good card. The price is good (could be cheaper than Delkin Black or Power) and the sustained write speed is likely good. And if R5ii does better on buffer, maybe it might reach its potential. [Eg r5ii with better buffer might get to a much higher sustained number of stills at 20fps.] But remember that 160gb when you are shooting if you get 200 shots in a 10s burst is going to fill pretty quickly. And you will likely want 512gb. So I would say, my gut feel is that its a great card for the price and performance, but only for someone that is sticking with R5 for a significant time or infrequently shoots long 20fps bursts without 4k video (both will fill pretty quick) or someone who stretches $ to get an R5 (or R5II) and needs a card to get by with (provided that Delkin Black or Power does just as well and so its about the price).

[- I need to re-look at the ordinary film maker video. I thought he said 1s buffer clear and 300 frames in 10s but maybe he has a different definitions (eg craw performance or stuttering performance or clear before full). I suspect his testing was at 12fps efcs where the R5 is not at its limits]

Edited on Jul 08, 2024 at 11:29 AM · View previous versions

Jul 08, 2024 at 09:56 AM

Abbott Schindl
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · FPS / Burst / Cards in Electronic R5

One thing: read the card specs carefully. Manufacturers tend to spec R/W as "up to", or "maximum", and some also provide "sustained". I got burned by a 128GB ProGrade CFexpress Type B card that, like other cards I have, is spec'd "Maximum Write 1400 MB/s; Minimum: 140 MB/s (guaranteed)". I was never able to get more than 170 MB/s Write and 686 MB/s Read in my fastest card reader.

OTOH, my 512GB Delkin Green cards are spec'd as Write Speed: Maximum: 1700 MB/s; Sustained: 805 MB/s. I measured ~860 MB/s Write and ~920 MB/s Read.

These are on an OWC Thunderbolt 4 card reader connected to a TB4 port on a M2 MBP. Note that although my measured values are significantly lower than the max spec, they definitely meet the "up to" and "minimum" specs.

A while back I read an article about 128 GB cards having half the number of chips that ≥256 GB cards use, which in turn results in about half the R/W performance. I'd already started buying 512 GB Delkin cards by then and have seen the huge performance difference between that old (now gifted) ProGrade card and my Delkins. It's further supported by my own data where a 1 TB ProGrade Gold has 590 MB/s W and 720 MB/s R performance, again in the OWC TB4 reader.

At this point I wouldn't consider any CFe card smaller than 256 GB (all of my cards are ≥512 GB), even though I've never come close to filling one with my R5.

Jul 08, 2024 at 10:43 AM

Scott Stoness
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · FPS / Burst / Cards in Electronic R5

- Compares Anglebird sx 128, se 512, and pro 1tb

- All around 4s buffer clear but se (surprise) fastests by 0.5s

- Se and Sx and pro pretty much at 80. Sx slightly bigger by one frame (surprise so close).

- In craw, they are all pretty close but again se is slightly bigger 134 vs 125 ish vs 120 ish - pretty close

- All se, sx, pro pretty good on hot performance

- Anglebird has fantastic customer service, recovery, and transparency

- Ony people needing sx or Pro are those with a "flagship" camera. He does not define this but from my test R5 is not a "flagship". Maybe the Nikon z9 and the upcoming Canon R1(maybe not at 24mpx?). I wish he would just say Nikon z9, not "flagship".

So my conclusions, for me:

- For the R5 (occasional big burst stills and ~ 2min 4k/60video) , the SE 512gb is better than the sx (160gb). The R5 internal capacity does not make use of the Sx sustained write (79 vs 80frames before stutter). The SE is better on buffer clear by a smidge (4 vs 4.5s). 4k video does not need 1400 sustained - maybe 300 - and SE is just as good on the R5. 512gb provides 25minutes of video vs 8 minutes on Sx 160gb, so the Sx is not as good. The Pro version similarly is only useful if you need 1tb or higher or want to get ready for R5II or R1 but R1 is only 24mpx and R5II is likely to be okay with 800 sustained and SE is $180cdn.

- The Delkin Power or Delkin Black are as good as the Angelbird for R5. So it's all about the GB. I suspect that R5II might do better on the Delkin Black but we won't know this for a month or so.

Edited on Jul 08, 2024 at 10:56 AM · View previous versions

Jul 08, 2024 at 10:53 AM

lighthound
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · FPS / Burst / Cards in Electronic R5

I've recently learned that my wifes bird feed is a lot cheaper than a new CFe card.

ISO 25,600

Edited on Jul 08, 2024 at 10:58 AM · View previous versions

Jul 08, 2024 at 10:54 AM

Scott Stoness
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · FPS / Burst / Cards in Electronic R5

lighthound wrote:
I've recently learned that my wifes bird feed is a lot cheaper than a new CFe card.

Bird feeder on order. I hope the grizzlies don't pull me out of the hot tub in the night.

Edited on Jul 08, 2024 at 11:48 AM · View previous versions

Jul 08, 2024 at 10:57 AM

Scott Stoness
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · FPS / Burst / Cards in Electronic R5

Abbott Schindl wrote:
One thing: read the card specs carefully. Manufacturers tend to spec R/W as "up to", or "maximum", and some also provide "sustained". I got burned by a 128GB ProGrade CFexpress Type B card that, like other cards I have, is spec'd "Maximum Write 1400 MB/s; Minimum: 140 MB/s (guaranteed)". I was never able to get more than 170 MB/s Write and 686 MB/s Read in my fastest card reader.

OTOH, my 512GB Delkin Green cards are spec'd as Write Speed: Maximum: 1700 MB/s; Sustained: 805 MB/s. I measured ~860 MB/s Write and ~920 MB/s Read.

These are on an OWC Thunderbolt...Show more →

Thanks - this is consistent with my tests and the video. On the R5 the Delkin Power or Black (or Angelbird Sx, Se) is pretty good but Black (Sx) sustained speed advantage (beyond 800) does not do any good on R5. GB is more important on R5 beyond ~800 sustained speed. [maybe the R5II will take advantage of Black speeds].

Jul 08, 2024 at 11:02 AM

koenkooi
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · FPS / Burst / Cards in Electronic R5

Scott Stoness wrote:
Thanks - this is consistent with my tests and the video. On the R5 the Delkin Power or Black (or Angelbird Sx, Se) is pretty good but Black (Sx) sustained speed advantage (beyond 800) does not do any good on R5. GB is more important on R5 beyond ~800 sustained speed. [maybe the R5II will take advantage of Black speeds].

I also hope Canon fixes the buffering behaviour, Nikon for example drops down to a lower, but consistent FPS when it runs out of buffer. The Z9 isn't as bottlenecked as the R5, I think it can do 1000+ MB/s to its CFe card.

I'd be extremely happy if the R5II does both: unlock higher write speeds and have a more consistent shooting speed.

Jul 09, 2024 at 04:09 AM

Scott Stoness
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · FPS / Burst / Cards in Electronic R5

koenkooi wrote:
I also hope Canon fixes the buffering behaviour, Nikon for example drops down to a lower, but consistent FPS when it runs out of buffer. The Z9 isn't as bottlenecked as the R5, I think it can do 1000+ MB/s to its CFe card.

I'd be extremely happy if the R5II does both: unlock higher write speeds and have a more consistent shooting speed.

The R5 can run continuously at 12fs efcs 14bit effectively unlimited, with the Delkin Black or Anglebird sx (sustained 1400 speed cards). But I don't like the shutter noise. If they just allowed electronic to run at 12fps 14bit, it would be solved. For me, 12fps is the sweet spot for catching action and not drowning in culling.

I am not familiar with the Z9 - isn't it an action camera more comparable to the R3? I understand that r3 is only 24mpx, but the proper comparison to r5 is the z8?

In reading about the z9, it can only do 1000+ in the equivalent of CRAW (where R5 can do 130 frames before buffer is hit]. I would like way better than what Nikon achieves with the advent of R5II - eg continuous 45mpx 30fps uncompressed 14 bit for >500 pics or so. CFExpress with 1400 sustained write should currently be sufficient. The Nikon Z9 is not sufficiently fast uncompressed - it only gets ~80 uncompressed shots at 45mpx.

I agree - it would be nice if the R5ii can make use of the CFexpress cards, instead of being internally limited.

Edited on Jul 10, 2024 at 01:26 AM · View previous versions

Jul 10, 2024 at 01:01 AM

Scott Stoness
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · FPS / Burst / Cards in Electronic R5

BTW - in my reading about burst speed, I discovered that my R8 can do about 150-200 in pre burst (CRAW 12bit) at 40fps, using a V90 SD (!!!) card. But 24mpx does not leave much to crop, but if you can fill the frame, its great (noting that extraction of pictures is a work flow nightmare).

------------------------ [copied and pasted from another post --------------

The R8,R7,r10 already has a precapture mode. At 40fps electronic on r8, It records 0.5s before full press and then shoots about 150-200 pics 1.45gb, initiated by 1/2 press. It takes about 7s to clear buffer. It puts the 150-200 pictures into a single file and you have to either select the one you want in dpp or in camera to extract it. [I have not used it because I do not like to have to use dpp to extract frames, but it does work]. I suspect that LR will figure out how to extract if it becomes widely used. It also has a very handy metric on screen to show you how close you are coming to full buffer. I note that electronic mode drops down to 12 bit from 14 bit. It also goes off when you shut the camera off and you need to reselect it if you want it again.

[There needs to be some solution to the "resets at off" issues and extraction (must extract before importing) in LR before its useful to me. But as a one-of feature it works.]

I cannot imagine that this or something better than this will not be in R5II.

https://lightroomkillertips.com/importing-canon-raw-burst-mode-files-into-lightroom-classic/

https://helpx.adobe.com/camera-raw/kb/raw-burst-mode.html

[BTW, 40fps, pre burst, ff, 450grams - my r8 is an impressive camera for $1500. Just not great for cropping at 24mpx]

a good review of pre burst on r7 - works well, more work to extract, don't need it on always (birds jumping off perches yes, foxes hunting voles yes, grizzly bears suddenly standing yes from me]

Jul 10, 2024 at 01:15 AM

robinleess
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · FPS / Burst / Cards in Electronic R5

When I purchased my R5 I bought Integral CF Express 128gb card and extremely unhappy with the writing speed. I could not even do 4k 120fps on that card so I returned them for 512gb card. That card has served me 2 years before I decided to go with Angelbird 1tb SE. I got this card because it has pretty good review and given the price vs capacity vs performance, this is one of the best one around. This card could do 8k 30fps without hiccup where the previous 512gb card couldn't. I noticed the buffer clears much quicker than the old card. I beginning to look at only 1tb cards and more in future as I don't fancy swapping cards and backing up after the end of the day.

My hope that R5II will incorporate CFe v4.0.

Jul 10, 2024 at 03:25 AM

koenkooi
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · FPS / Burst / Cards in Electronic R5

Scott Stoness wrote:
[...]I am not familiar with the Z9 - isn't it an action camera more comparable to the R3? I understand that r3 is only 24mpx, but the proper comparison to r5 is the z8? [...]

I used it as an example of a different buffer behaviour, not as an equivalent camera to the R5

The Z8 likely has the same behaviour as the Z9, but I don't know that for sure, so I didn't mention it.

Jul 10, 2024 at 06:35 AM


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