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New Pixii camera launch

  
 
Fred Miranda
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p.6 #1 · p.6 #1 · New Pixii camera launch


If itís indeed 1/15, I donít think itís adequate. Iím not a fan of electronic shutters, so this isn't for me. This could be why they initially chose the APS-C sensor, as its read-out speed is typically twice as fast, and the camera was designed without a mechanical shutter.

However, we still need the official technical specs to confirm this. The camera might have an option for faster read-outs at lower bit depths.


highdesertmesa wrote:
The majority of cameras also have mechanical shutters, which this one does not. And this camera is reported to have a 1/15 sec. scan speed, not 1/30 sec. Itís not the slowest scan speed out there, but I feel like 1/15 sec. with no mechanical shutter to fall back on is a limitation the buyer/shooter has to be very aware of.




Jul 06, 2024 at 05:55 AM
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p.6 #2 · p.6 #2 · New Pixii camera launch


I'm happy for a new contender in the FF Rangefinder space. This wasn't anticipated as I thought PIXII was too afraid to go against with Leica FF. Others also thought against the move but I believe it's the right direction for PIXII as it's the major market for photographers.
I hope the best for PIXII as much as I was against them going aspc at the start. The price of a new FF Leica M is too high for my blood these days especially for non US countries
If ever PIXII wishes to innovate I recommend them enter in the L mount alliance and move into a L mount rangefinder with AF capabilities in the future. Their hybrid philosophy goes hand in hand with going AF



Jul 06, 2024 at 07:01 AM
ISO1600
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p.6 #3 · p.6 #3 · New Pixii camera launch


If it is indeed using the FP sensor with no changes to readout speed, that is disappointing. MOST of the time, it was not an issue, but handheld video would get wobbly, and I would often get banding under artificial light that could get pretty ugly. I don't like having to work around those kind of limitations, especially on a not-insignificantly priced camera.


Jul 08, 2024 at 11:25 PM
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p.6 #4 · p.6 #4 · New Pixii camera launch


ISO1600 wrote:
If it is indeed using the FP sensor with no changes to readout speed, that is disappointing. MOST of the time, it was not an issue, but handheld video would get wobbly, and I would often get banding under artificial light that could get pretty ugly. I don't like having to work around those kind of limitations, especially on a not-insignificantly priced camera.


So, it was not an issue for photography, but it was for video?

Are you planning to do video with the pixii?



Jul 09, 2024 at 03:11 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.6 #5 · p.6 #5 · New Pixii camera launch


The PixII is not a video camera though. However I agree that slow sensor readout restricts the usability of the camera.

ISO1600 wrote:
If it is indeed using the FP sensor with no changes to readout speed, that is disappointing. MOST of the time, it was not an issue, but handheld video would get wobbly, and I would often get banding under artificial light that could get pretty ugly. I don't like having to work around those kind of limitations, especially on a not-insignificantly priced camera.




Jul 09, 2024 at 08:28 AM
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p.6 #6 · p.6 #6 · New Pixii camera launch


ISO1600 wrote:
If it is indeed using the FP sensor with no changes to readout speed, that is disappointing. MOST of the time, it was not an issue, but handheld video would get wobbly, and I would often get banding under artificial light that could get pretty ugly. I don't like having to work around those kind of limitations, especially on a not-insignificantly priced camera.

Malabito wrote:
So, it was not an issue for photography, but it was for video?

Are you planning to do video with the pixii?


Please note ISO1600's point about two distinct effects that result from the slow sensor scan speeds. There is the rolling shutter 'jello' effect that is getting most of the attention, but also banding under artificial lighting that can become very noticeable and impossible to ignore.

Rolling shutter distortion will be more prevalent the lower the sensor scan speed but is often disguised in a given image unless there are other images from a sequence as points of reference. And what is video other than high frame rate stills sequences?

I don't usually see rolling shutter effects in stills from my Canon cameras with 1/60 sensor scan speeds. But it becomes more noticeable when culling sports sequences shot at 20 or 40 fps. For example, if a running athlete suddenly changed direction during a sequence, rolling shutter distortion on parts of their body is noticeable when compared against other images in the sequence. However, this distortion usually isn't obvious when viewing the stills in isolation. That's at 1/60. Drop to 1/15 and IMO rolling shutter distortion will become more noticeable in standalone images when content is moving in such a manner that it's 'out of sync' with the e-shutter, for lack of a better description. For example, a certain kind of rapid movement might result in more visible distortion in a vertical photo than horizontal because the sensor scans in a specific direction that might be 'blind' to the movement in one orientation but not the other.

Regarding banding - in one of my Canon cameras there is a 'high speed flicker compensation' setting where the camera analyzes the cycle rate of the light source and recommends a custom shutter speed to eliminate the banding. It actually works really well, for example fixing banding of LED display boards, LED theatrical lighting and video projection systems. But it can only fix one cycle rate if there is more than one in the scene. It also appears to only work with cycle rates higher than typical 50/60Hz alternating current cycle rates used by many common light sources.

We should ask Juha about his day to day experiences using the Sigma fp while wandering the streets of Tokyo. It's probably a use case shared by many interested in this camera.



Jul 09, 2024 at 09:24 AM
highdesertmesa
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p.6 #7 · p.6 #7 · New Pixii camera launch




rscheffler wrote:
Please note ISO1600's point about two distinct effects that result from the slow sensor scan speeds. There is the rolling shutter 'jello' effect that is getting most of the attention, but also banding under artificial lighting that can become very noticeable and impossible to ignore.

Rolling shutter distortion will be more prevalent the lower the sensor scan speed but is often disguised in a given image unless there are other images from a sequence as points of reference. And what is video other than high frame rate stills sequences?

I don't usually see rolling shutter effects in stills from my
...Show more

Good points. I could observe the same thing with the R5 on sequenced bursts where every fourth or fifth shot would have the entire image ever so slightly warped+skewed in a flying flag manner. But if that image was pulled from the sequence, it was not readily apparent the image was warped. Iíd be willing to bet that Sigma fp users are getting the warped images every so often but donít even know it unless they shoot several shots in a row in a continuous shooting mode and review the images one after the other in quick succession on the LCD or flipping through them in Lightroom.



Jul 09, 2024 at 10:19 AM
highdesertmesa
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p.6 #8 · p.6 #8 · New Pixii camera launch


Fred Miranda wrote:
If itís indeed 1/15, I donít think itís adequate. Iím not a fan of electronic shutters, so this isn't for me. This could be why they initially chose the APS-C sensor, as its read-out speed is typically twice as fast, and the camera was designed without a mechanical shutter.

However, we still need the official technical specs to confirm this. The camera might have an option for faster read-outs at lower bit depths.



Agreed, though having to shoot in 12-bit mode to avoid rolling shutter feels like it defeats the purpose of a $4K full frame camera. But to play the devilís advocate, most of what I shoot is fine for a slow electronic shutter. My M11M electronic readout is even slower, and thereís the crazy slow readout of the GFX 100S in 16-bit mode. I just sat real still for what seemed like an entire second with the GFX until I could hear the electronic shutter buzzing noise stop!



Jul 09, 2024 at 10:27 AM
ISO1600
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p.6 #9 · p.6 #9 · New Pixii camera launch


Yes, I was making two different points.

I shot the FP in similar situations to Juha as I live in Okinawa and travel around Asia. I got banding very often, as I like to shoot wide open therefore my shutter speeds will be too fast to allow for the cycling of artificial light to disappear into the image. Any time cycling light sources were the main light in a scene, this HAS to be taken into account, as the FP has no compensation method, other than manually adjusting your shutter speed to something lower than might be ideal, if you don't have ND filters on hand, and want to shoot with a fast lens.

Regarding video, I shoot a lot of handheld video. With a non-stabilized lens/sensor combo, you want a faster readout to avoid rolling shutter jello.
I don't even know if the pixii can shoot video, and I don't have any plan to buy a pixii (just not in the cards at the moment), but the slow readout sensor is a non starter personally on a camera this expensive.

Canon (and other) cameras can do the banding compensation by using a mix of electronic and mech shutter. I don't think you can do banding comp with a purely electronic shutter. It works great on my Canon cameras.



Jul 09, 2024 at 05:22 PM
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p.6 #10 · p.6 #10 · New Pixii camera launch


The fact that Leica sensors are even slower readout blows my mind. Is this true?


Jul 09, 2024 at 05:24 PM
 


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thrice
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p.6 #11 · p.6 #11 · New Pixii camera launch


ISO1600 wrote:
The fact that Leica sensors are even slower readout blows my mind. Is this true?


No.

Their peripheral software and hardware, or which readout mode they put the Sony IMX455ALK-C sensor in the M11M into would be the cause.
Readout speed can be faster than 1/20s (50ms) in full resolution with a 1.5 stop DR penalty.

The Visoflex 2 is 3.7 megapixel, if they put the sensor in readout mode 7B and bin the resolution 2x they could happily get a 60fps feed from the sensor into the EVF. 120fps would require a drop to 2.89 megapixel. Both these modes use line-skipping.

Leica do not publish the refresh rate of the Visoflex 2 as far as I know, so it would be safe to assume it is 60fps maximum.



Jul 09, 2024 at 05:50 PM
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p.6 #12 · p.6 #12 · New Pixii camera launch


Yes for e-shutter as Leica started to use 61MP Sony sensor with SL3/M11/Q3. The e-shutter/rolling shutter speeds of different cameras:

https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/

ISO1600 wrote:
The fact that Leica sensors are even slower readout blows my mind. Is this true?





Jul 09, 2024 at 06:05 PM
rscheffler
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p.6 #13 · p.6 #13 · New Pixii camera launch


ISO1600 wrote:
Canon (and other) cameras can do the banding compensation by using a mix of electronic and mech shutter. I don't think you can do banding comp with a purely electronic shutter. It works great on my Canon cameras.


Canon's high speed flicker compensation works in all shutter modes - mechanical, EFCS and e-shutter, as stated in my camera's manual.

There was some discussion about how this works in the rolling shutter database thread here on FM at this post. See also this post on the next page for a more visual example.

The basic gist of this feature is that it allows tweaking of the shutter speed so that each pixel row sees the light cycle on/off the same number of times as all other pixel rows. Therefore they all receive an equal amount of cycles. Banding is the result of pixel rows seeing unequal numbers of light cycles.

My takeaway from reading this is that high speed flicker compensation should be independent of sensor scan speed and is instead a function of timing the duration the pixels are on and recording light to be an even division of the light source's frequency so that all pixel rows see an equal number of the light's on/off cycles. Therefore it should be possible to have this in a camera like the Pixii. How it would be implemented without an LCD display from which to monitor the set up of the camera for this feature makes it more complicated.




Jul 09, 2024 at 07:48 PM
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p.6 #14 · p.6 #14 · New Pixii camera launch


rscheffler wrote:
Canon's high speed flicker compensation works in all shutter modes - mechanical, EFCS and e-shutter, as stated in my camera's manual.


I understand the theory behind the compensation, but on the R8 if you go into silent shutter/full electronic mode, it locks out banding comp... is that a uniquely R8 problem? Pretty sure on the XE4 i had it was the same way. I don't have my new cameras (R7/R50) in-hand yet to verify, but if that's just an R8 issue, then that's another strike against that camera lol.



Jul 09, 2024 at 09:00 PM
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p.6 #15 · p.6 #15 · New Pixii camera launch


ISO1600 wrote:
Canon (and other) cameras can do the banding compensation by using a mix of electronic and mech shutter. I don't think you can do banding comp with a purely electronic shutter. It works great on my Canon cameras.

rscheffler wrote:
Canon's high speed flicker compensation works in all shutter modes - mechanical, EFCS and e-shutter, as stated in my camera's manual.

ISO1600 wrote:
I understand the theory behind the compensation, but on the R8 if you go into silent shutter/full electronic mode, it locks out banding comp... is that a uniquely R8 problem? Pretty sure on the XE4 i had it was the same way. I don't have my new cameras (R7/R50) in-hand yet to verify, but if that's just an R8 issue, then that's another strike against that camera lol.


Some Canon cameras have two forms of flicker compensation, including the R8. There's the 'normal' option called Anti-Flicker Shooting and the newer option in some of their more recent mirrorless cameras called High-Frequency Anti-Flicker Shooting. The first version does not work in e-shutter and times the opening of the mechanical shutter for the peak output of the light source as it cycles on from off at the frequency of the AC electrical system. This feature was also available in some later DSLRs starting around 2016 with the 1DXII, IIRC. This is the option to use when shooting in typical indoor lighting that cycles at the AC frequency but requires use of the mechanical shutter.

https://cam.start.canon/en/C013/manual/html/UG-04_Shooting-1_0150.html
https://cam.start.canon/en/C013/manual/html/UG-04_Shooting-1_0160.html



Jul 09, 2024 at 11:56 PM
thrice
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p.6 #16 · p.6 #16 · New Pixii camera launch


serhan_ wrote:
Yes for e-shutter as Leica started to use 61MP Sony sensor with SL3/M11/Q3. The e-shutter/rolling shutter speeds of different cameras:

https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/



Looks like the Leica M11 has exactly the same readout as the Sony cameras with the same sensor.



Jul 10, 2024 at 02:48 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.6 #17 · p.6 #17 · New Pixii camera launch


thrice wrote:
Looks like the Leica M11 has exactly the same readout as the Sony cameras with the same sensor.


Yes, with the M11 series, Leica chose to prioritize megapixels over fast read-out speeds. While the high megapixel count is nice, it posed a challenge because many rangefinder shooters prefer a resolution between ~24-40MP. To address this, Leica introduced the triple resolution feature, calling it a benefit. However, the low read-out scan at ~1/10 only works with static subjects.

In my opinion, if Leica is encouraging shooters to use Live View (with their new close MFD M-mount lenses) and the electronic shutter, they should have used a stacked sensor instead. This would allow shooting with the electronic shutter without any rolling shutter artifacts and simplify the camera by having just one resolution. For this reason, I would prefer if they used the Sony A1 50MP stacked sensor instead of the 61MP Sony A7R IV sensor. Maybe this will happen with the M12, and they will completely remove the mechanical shutter (which I would dislike and would give me a reason to stick with my M10-R ).



Jul 10, 2024 at 04:53 AM
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p.6 #18 · p.6 #18 · New Pixii camera launch


Fred Miranda wrote:
In my opinion, if Leica is encouraging shooters to use Live View (with their new close MFD M-mount lenses) and the electronic shutter, they should have used a stacked sensor instead. This would allow shooting with the electronic shutter without any rolling shutter artifacts and simplify the camera by having just one resolution. For this reason, I would prefer if they used the Sony A1 50MP stacked sensor instead of the 61MP Sony A7R IV sensor. Maybe this will happen with the M12, and they will completely remove the mechanical shutter (which I would dislike and would give me
...Show more

It comes back what T. Overgaard already clearly mentioned in one of his previous videos about the M11 where I fully agree with: the current M11 is simply a stepping stone and prototype to a EVF-based successor model in the same format (call it EVF-M for example). The mentioned experience and also that the novel external EVF for the M11 fits in size perfectly inside the M11's rangefinder patch it might replace are clear indications.



Jul 10, 2024 at 09:47 AM
thrice
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p.6 #19 · p.6 #19 · New Pixii camera launch


Fred Miranda wrote:
Yes, with the M11 series, Leica chose to prioritize megapixels over fast read-out speeds. While the high megapixel count is nice, it posed a challenge because many rangefinder shooters prefer a resolution between ~24-40MP. To address this, Leica introduced the triple resolution feature, calling it a benefit. However, the low read-out scan at ~1/10 only works with static subjects.

In my opinion, if Leica is encouraging shooters to use Live View (with their new close MFD M-mount lenses) and the electronic shutter, they should have used a stacked sensor instead. This would allow shooting with the electronic shutter without any
...Show more

How good is the M10-R though



Jul 11, 2024 at 01:57 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.6 #20 · p.6 #20 · New Pixii camera launch


thrice wrote:
How good is the M10-R though


It's actually more than enough camera for me. It does everything I need in a rangefinder, matches the dynamic range and resolution of most of my other cameras, and never freezes while shooting.



Jul 11, 2024 at 02:06 AM
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