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Are On-line Stores a Step Backwards?

  
 
Forum GAS
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Are On-line Stores a Step Backwards?


It amazes me all the questions on brand forums about should I buy this camera or another camera. Sometimes it is about different brands. You ask a bunch of brand fanboys, what do you expect? I wonder if we went to a camera store and talked to a sales rep, would we get better advice? I realize, some salesmen are better than others. But in a store, you can actually see, hold, and operate a camera and its lenses. I used to sell retail. Recently, a poster asked whether he should buy camera a, b, or c from different brands. He gave limited information on his background. From that, I provided my opinion. But realistically, I could have asked a lot more questions to get a really good feel of whether the specialized type of camera was a good fit for him. But I’m not getting paid for all this expertise I could provide. I’m not going to spend maybe 30-60 minutes probing this guy. Compounding the issues are: actual stores are disappearing, stock is low, not all cameras are easily viewable in person. But for the vast majority of buyers, is this really an issue? Can a store still provide a better answer for a buyer?


Jun 17, 2024 at 12:20 AM
sjms
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Are On-line Stores a Step Backwards?


the variables are infinite to even attempt to give a reasonable answer. just another churn.




Jun 17, 2024 at 09:46 PM
Choderboy
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Are On-line Stores a Step Backwards?


Absolutely not.
My first DSLR purchase was a Pentax *1st DS. Good camera, but what a ridiculous name!

So the full of himself social reject at the shop's first words to me involved him ridiculing my pronunciation of *1st DS. I resisted giving him a heart felt response.
He proceeded to ask me if I knew about the 1.6 crop factor. Again, I resisted informing him that he was wrong and that the crop factor was 1.5 and he was probably confused with Canon.
I wanted the camera, so that probably helped me tolerate this fool.

All I could think was shut up, hand me a box with the camera inside and I'll hand my credit card over.
His total contribution was wasting my time, insulting me, giving me wrong information.

That was about 2005.

More recently, in a shop, I asked if they had any wired remotes. "Why not use your phone?" was the response. "I really don't want to use a phone" I explained and he decided it was worthwhile debating the logic of my choice.
So I'm supposed to educate him on the meaning of the word tactile? And delay?

Between those two events, I bought a Canon 1DXII from a shop I had a history of spending.
At the time, the promotion was a bonus 680EXII flash. Getting home I realised they had given me a 680EX flash. Checking my receipt, the Serial number on the flash did not match.
Going back to the shop the next day, they accused me of trying to scam them by bringing back a different flash.

I could go on. You may have guessed, I have no problems with the loss of the brick and mortar.







Jun 18, 2024 at 07:10 AM
sjms
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Are On-line Stores a Step Backwards?


today some of the better "on-line" stores are well backed up by the brick-and-mortar base stores
examples (one i have dealt with):
B&H
Adorama
Unique
District Camera (3 locations)
Pictureline
just come to mind

going online extends their reach





Jun 18, 2024 at 08:04 AM
Geoffrey Ngai
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Are On-line Stores a Step Backwards?


B&H has implemented a video chat feature not too long ago. You can use this feature to chat with a product professional and they can show you features of the camera(s). You don't need a camera or a microphone to use this feature although it would be easier to communicate with the product specialist if you had a mic. It's not the same as handling the product in person but we feel it's a good alternative.

Most product specialists at B&H are experts in their fields are aspiring professionals so you can feel confident that the right solution would be recommended.

~Geoffrey Ngai
B&H Photo-Video



Jun 18, 2024 at 10:37 AM
CanadaMark
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Are On-line Stores a Step Backwards?


Forum GAS wrote:
It amazes me all the questions on brand forums about should I buy this camera or another camera. Sometimes it is about different brands. You ask a bunch of brand fanboys, what do you expect? I wonder if we went to a camera store and talked to a sales rep, would we get better advice? I realize, some salesmen are better than others. But in a store, you can actually see, hold, and operate a camera and its lenses. I used to sell retail. Recently, a poster asked whether he should buy camera a, b, or c from different
...Show more

I find you get the exact same "fanboy" (or biased, whatever you want to call it) advice in the stores, often lots of misinformation, and while there are lots of incredibly nice and helpful people, I have never been in a camera store in my life where the staff knew half as much as many folks who participate on forums. In their defense, I also think the average customer probably doesn't care about the granular details, and the staff are usually required to cover many brands, but I also feel like the knowledge should be there to guide their recommendations. They will still be partial to the brand(s) they shoot and they will especially be partial to the brands/models with the highest margins or kickbacks. Most camera store staff are on commission (or bonus structure), which all but guarantees they are not working in your best interest, similar to a realtor, electronics, or car sales person. Customers ask them questions and generally they regurgitate press release bullet points or whatever the brand rep told them. Some stores are certainly better than others though.

I've never fully been able to wrap my head around how bad the 'fanboyism' is with camera brands in general. I feel like it didn't used to be this bad but maybe it has. The amount of effort some people put into convincing themselves their choices are the best is frankly astonishing, especially when they aren't on the company's payroll haha - if you're going to spend all your time white knighting for a brand, at least get paid for it! In the beginning, I never would have guessed it was something people cared so much about but it's really quite something.

The biggest value the physical stores offer in my opinion is being able to see/touch gear before you buy, being able to get things instantly (if in stock), and ease of returns without having to worry about shipping damage or anything like that. Especially things like camera bags which are hard to buy sight unseen, you can just bring your gear to a store and see if it fits. In my case I almost always know what I want before going in, so I'm an easy customer, but I still reward the local store(s) and salespeople that treat me well with my business rather than buying online. I never buy expensive camera gear online anyway due to the abuse they can end up taking in the shipping process.

To you second point, I think it's reasonable to put as much effort into your reply as the person asking puts into their question. If someone is expecting thoughtful, lengthy replies from a question with zero context, they probably aren't going to get it. It's not your job to probe for information when half the time they just disappear anyway. I find a lot of the time people asking one line questions like that only signed up to do so, and they are often gone shortly after without ever replying. I personally enjoy helping folks out where I can, but I'm much more likely to do so if it's a thoughtfully written question or a question from a well known member who makes plenty of their own valuable contributions.



Jun 18, 2024 at 12:03 PM
RoamingScott
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Are On-line Stores a Step Backwards?


Fun fact: when I worked retail electronics 20+ years ago, we'd push the products that earned us the biggest SPIFFs, not the products that were best for the consumer. It wasn't even fanboyism...I sold a ton of Apple products because it paid my bills, not because I liked them or felt like they were the best solution for the customer.

Like Mark said, the real value is simply getting things in hand. When the Z line first came out, I swung by a best buy and held the Z6 and found I really disliked it. That was valuable vs buying online, trying, having to return, maybe getting hit with restocking, etc.



Jun 18, 2024 at 12:07 PM
sjms
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Are On-line Stores a Step Backwards?


and that's why there are regional shows at various shops supported by the reps/companies.

the store nearest me "unique" does it twice a year just before summer and before Christmas. a timely manner one could say. being there shows it works quite well.



Jun 18, 2024 at 12:21 PM
chez
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Are On-line Stores a Step Backwards?


It really depends what type of relationship one has with the brick and mortar store. I've been dealing with this one store for many years and have got to know the people that run it. Yes, some of these guys are just there as a job to sell stuff...others are there because photography is their passion. The guys with passion are a wealth of knowledge and have helped me out many times. One big benefit of really knowing the store is that I get free access to rental equipment if it's not already booked. Not only can i go in and hold a camera at the counter, I can go in and pick up a camera / lens etc... and give it a try for a day or two.

I know many here use online stores for this purpose...buy, try and then send back, but my ethics as well as the extra hassle of doing this stops me.

My suggestion is if you have a close by store, reach out and establish a relationship with the store...there are definitely long term benefits that an online store cannot touch.



Jun 18, 2024 at 12:25 PM
Gregory Edge
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Are On-line Stores a Step Backwards?


I am fortunate enough to live within driving distance of BH and Adorama. If I want a camera bag or something that needs to be tried out first I make the trip. I have bought bags online and once I have gotten them they disappoint.

I will not buy anything of value from Amazon. They sold me a couple counterfeit cards in the past so I do not trust them. Their co-mingling warehouse process allows for you to get knock offs even if buying from Amazon.



Jun 27, 2024 at 09:54 AM
 


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rscheffler
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Are On-line Stores a Step Backwards?


Forum GAS wrote:
It amazes me all the questions on brand forums about should I buy this camera or another camera. Sometimes it is about different brands. You ask a bunch of brand fanboys, what do you expect? I wonder if we went to a camera store and talked to a sales rep, would we get better advice?


You will still get biased advice. The particular rep you interact with might have a personal brand bias. There might be sales incentives, such as spiffs or kickbacks, that pay the reps for sales of a specific brand or model, if on commission. They may also be more inclined to sell what they have in stock.

I worked in a camera store at the dawn of the internet as we know it now. At that time, we reps indeed had access to more information in one place than the average consumer walking into the store - we had all the brochures and when new models were released, the manufacturers' sales reps would visit to brief us about the new features. And yes, we were all biased, including me. But if a customer was pretty adamant about a specific brand, we'd still help them or let the 'brand expert' help them (we weren't on commission). Back then a lot of customers indeed came to the store to get our advice about what they should buy for their intended end uses.

Nowadays there's so much information available online that it's much easier to research and at least have a pretty high level understanding about the differences between brands and models before even stepping in a store. But at least for me, my research is mostly based on manufacturer spec sheets and a handful of 'trustable' review sites, such as DPR. Plus decades of photography experience and I think I can read between the lines when necessary. Influencer videos I generally ignore. With such self-education, it's pretty easy to know when participants in a forum thread or a sales rep in a store is spewing BS or trying to push you to something you probably don't want. At least for me, the physical store is there often just to pick up what I already know I want. I usually don't want their advice. But I buy there because I have a long-time relationship with them and know I can get the necessary support if there is an immediate fault or defect with what I just bought, should I need it.



Jun 27, 2024 at 04:51 PM
nmerc_photos
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Are On-line Stores a Step Backwards?


I personally hate in person stores. I will do everything I can to avoid them. I find it's a pretty common thought process with people in my generation.

I also would never trust a salesperson for anything. Car, camera gear, mattress. I'd much rather get information from random users on the internet, than from someone who has a vested interest in selling me a product.

I'm surprised there are as many brick and mortar physical stores that still exist.

If I want to test something, I buy it outright and resell it if I don't like it. It has always been cheaper than renting for me, and gives me an unlimited amount of time to check stuff out. I've never been a fan of the thinking that you can "test a camera" (or lens) in a store before purchasing. The time window is too short. You feel pressured. You're not using it in the real world scenario you would once you buy it.



Jul 01, 2024 at 11:00 PM
retrofocus
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Are On-line Stores a Step Backwards?


My experience is to be always better off by informing myself about products of interest first online on multiple sites and using the sales representative as last resort if actually purchasing in-store. Similar to PPE (personal protective equipment): last line of defense and do everything possible first to avoid that PPE has to actually be used! PPE here in this comparison is the sales representative.

Couple of years ago I ventured into the B&H store in NYC to look at used Leica M lens gear. One copy of the Leitz 50/2 Summicron-DR hit my eye. I asked the sales clerk to hand it to me to have a closer look at. I didn't inform myself ahead of time about the mechanic functionality of this lens - it came without goggles, and at the time I had no idea that this was needed to move the focus ring into close-focus range. The clerk wasn't helpful at all here - just said it takes experience to use it. Needless to say I handed it back to him and didn't buy anything there this day. I bought the lens with goggles at an online store a couple years later. If he showed me how it works and applied the goggles, I might have bought it just there in the store!

Another one: looked at the used SLR lens gear in a brick and mortar store which no longer exists. The clerk gave me the Minolta 35/2.8 SLR lens in EX condition for $20 and told me that not many actually buy this old gear. I mentioned that I can nicely adapt it to my mirrorless camera (MLC) - he was confused, and I could tell he never heard about this before. This happened at the height of MLCs hitting the market. Nevertheless I got a very good deal with this lens.




Jul 02, 2024 at 10:12 AM
retrofocus
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Are On-line Stores a Step Backwards?


nmerc_photos wrote:
I'm surprised there are as many brick and mortar physical stores that still exist.


Many of them mostly survive and keep in existence due to their rental business. I often see customers coming in and out the store to rent or bring back photo gear needed to do weddings, photo events etc. This seems quite profitable. I rarely see people buying new cameras in a store though. Some stores also learned to make good money by buying and selling vintage camera gear especially with revamped interest in film photography. This seems to work especially well when the store is close to colleges with fine art programs and photography classes.



Jul 02, 2024 at 10:18 AM
chez
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Are On-line Stores a Step Backwards?




retrofocus wrote:
Many of them mostly survive and keep in existence due to their rental business. I often see customers coming in and out the store to rent or bring back photo gear needed to do weddings, photo events etc. This seems quite profitable. I rarely see people buying new cameras in a store though. Some stores also learned to make good money by buying and selling vintage camera gear especially with revamped interest in film photography. This seems to work especially well when the store is close to colleges with fine art programs and photography classes.


Many of these b&m stores also have an online outlet where I would think more of their sales come from.



Jul 02, 2024 at 10:43 AM
Jman13
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Are On-line Stores a Step Backwards?




Choderboy wrote:
Absolutely not.
My first DSLR purchase was a Pentax *1st DS. Good camera, but what a ridiculous name!

So the full of himself social reject at the shop's first words to me involved him ridiculing my pronunciation of *1st DS. I resisted giving him a heart felt response.


To be fair, perhaps the salesperson knew that the model in question was the “*ist D” and not the “*1st D” as you mention.



I think a lot of this depends on the store, though. I have two excellent brick and mortar stores in my city and both have staff that know me and are wonderful to deal with. I buy from either of them if at all possible and only get stuff online if there are stock delays.



Jul 13, 2024 at 06:53 AM
Pixelpuffin
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Are On-line Stores a Step Backwards?


My experience with camera stores started almost 40yrs ago and abruptly ended 20yrs after. For me they just seemed to push whatever lines they had in stock or gave them best profits.
I really doubt they have your best interest at heart, they are there to sell you stuff and make money.

Hence I can’t remember the last time I purchased anything from a high street shop.

I get the feeling now regardless what shop I visit I’m being ripped off. So almost all my purchases are now through auction sites or charity shops. I simply hate lining peoples pockets…HATE IT!!….So don’t 😎

Edit:-
I do think the single biggest problem today for any hobby is online forums. Regardless what hobby you’re into, the forum always always has gear heads who create gear envy. There’s little wonder why manufacturers stopped the free brochures we all used to collect years ago, they don’t need to, online forums are the perfect sales pitch. Manufacturers must be laughing all the way to the bank at the number of lemmings throwing themselves off the cliff into the chasms of debt as the fuel their need to own the very latest and then proudly go online to tell everyone else they must be really good as they too have just bought the latest greatest and if you don’t own the latest greatest then clearly you’re not good enough!!

Edited on Jul 28, 2024 at 07:50 AM · View previous versions



Jul 28, 2024 at 07:38 AM
sjms
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Are On-line Stores a Step Backwards?


nothing like doing your due diligence and making up your own mind. that way you either pat yourself on your own back when you're feeling right or looking in the unhappy mirror when it goes the other way. and that's where ever you procure it


I do think the single biggest problem today for any hobby is online forums. Regardless what hobby you’re into, the forum always always has gear heads who create gear envy.

Absolutely but, they can't create "gear envy" if you educate yourself and use common sense (hoping that works)



Jul 28, 2024 at 07:44 AM
Choderboy
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Are On-line Stores a Step Backwards?


I probably said 1stD above as that's the way I think of the camera.
Actually, I said DS, but that's the 2nd, cheaper model.
I bought the *istD.
The salesman was a tool. What I can't type is his tone and attitude.
Stuck up snobby and arrogant would be a reasonable description.
He did not include the "*" in his description. I did not correct him on that.

Can you think of a more stupid named camera?
I think it's reasonable to expect some lattitude when saying this stupid name.

Then he continued his smarmy way when informing me about the 1.6 crop.
Flat out wrong!
Anyone can make a mistake but his manner, IMHO, would be unacceptable even if he could get everything correct.

Alternative response to my method of naming the camera would be "(chuckle..) Yes, what a stupid name. But a good camera. Are you aware of the 1.5 crop?"




Jman13 wrote:
To be fair, perhaps the salesperson knew that the model in question was the “*ist D” and not the “*1st D” as you mention.



I think a lot of this depends on the store, though. I have two excellent brick and mortar stores in my city and both have staff that know me and are wonderful to deal with. I buy from either of them if at all possible and only get stuff online if there are stock delays.




Jul 30, 2024 at 07:40 PM
sjms
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Are On-line Stores a Step Backwards?


Remember, and I have said it before, we are all bozos on this bus.

No one can sell you something you know is not for you. That then puts the blame squarely where it belongs.



Jul 31, 2024 at 08:43 AM
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