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Ditching M11, getting M10-R?

  
 
johnvanr
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Ditching M11, getting M10-R?


During the last firmware update my M11 completely locked up. And I mean completely. Taking the battery in and out, leaving it out for a day, using different cards, nothing makes a difference. The camera doesn't turn on. Leica Amsterdam says it needs to be sent in and it will take months.

I will call Leica Germany and ask them if there's a quicker solution, but quite frankly it's just p*ssing me off that anything could take that long. At the same time, I want to stick with the rangefinder experience.

So, I'm thinking of sending the M11 in and having it fixed and then selling it. In the meantime, I'd get a M10-R, which as far as I know doesn't suffer from those software glitches and offers plenty of resolution.

I have the Visoflex, but don't really use it. I don't need the triple resolution choices. I like the bottom plate of the M11, but can live without it.

What else would I miss? Is the M10-R actually a more reliable choice?

And finally, there's one for sale in the country I'm currently in, but it has a 64000 shutter count. That feels uncomfortably high for me. Is it?

And, really finally, how close could we be to an EVF camera that accepts the M-mount and offers a superior MF functionality (no peaking or magnifying option, but something like the Nikon Zf?).



Jun 10, 2024 at 03:42 AM
markhout
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Ditching M11, getting M10-R?


Sorry to hear about your M11. Another sign of Leica suffering from QA issues and also very poor Customer support.

I just acquired a used M10-R last week. First impression is that it is a nice camera, but the functionality is different from M240/M9 and the older digital M cameras. Strange behaviors around user profiles en lens coding. Had the first freeze coming from trying out the wifi and the leica fotos app. Could well be rookie user errors, but to me the M10-R is not the smooth sailing that I expected coming from the M240.

DR and high-ISO are indeed a great step forwards. But expectations must be kept in check.

By the way, your Leica customer experience mirrors mine. I ordered the used M10-R online and thought that it would be nice to pick up the camera in person from the Leica store. They could not be more haughty ('oh, a used sale'), did not bother to unbox and show / demo the camera and did not have an extra battery available for sale. I was in and out of the store within 3 mins, with my most expensive photo investment ever, by far. Just disappointing.

This is very likely my last Leica camera, given the overall lack of customer recognition vs cash spent.



Jun 10, 2024 at 04:55 AM
1bwana1
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Ditching M11, getting M10-R?


johnvanr wrote:
During the last firmware update my M11 completely locked up. And I mean completely. Taking the battery in and out, leaving it out for a day, using different cards, nothing makes a difference. The camera doesn't turn on. Leica Amsterdam says it needs to be sent in and it will take months.

I will call Leica Germany and ask them if there's a quicker solution, but quite frankly it's just p*ssing me off that anything could take that long. At the same time, I want to stick with the rangefinder experience.

So, I'm thinking of sending the M11 in and
...Show more

Stories like these is why I haven't sold my M10-P. Keeping it for backup.

If I were as close as you I would probably just go to Wetzlar and see what could be done. I will be there on Thursday and Friday this week.

I cannot believe that a simple reflash of the camera firmware can take months. It is not like hard to find parts need to be swapped out or rare technician skill is needed. It is probably a half hour job at most.

Leica charges a premium price they should provide a premium owner experience. Not having enough staff to do this is unjustified in my opinion.


Edited on Jun 10, 2024 at 06:15 AM · View previous versions



Jun 10, 2024 at 05:30 AM
311erin
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Ditching M11, getting M10-R?


Absolutely unacceptable! The M11 has certainly given Leica a bad reputation. However, I bought a used M11 in April and took it to Kauai, and it performed flawlessly. I've owned the 10R before and never considered the M11, but now I can't imagine going back. I suggest finding a reliable M11 or seeking a replacement from Leica if yours is problematic. When the M11 works, as it does for me, it's an incredible camera!


Jun 10, 2024 at 06:10 AM
johnvanr
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Ditching M11, getting M10-R?


1bwana1 wrote:
Stories like these is why I haven't sold my M10-P. Keeping it for backup.

If I were as close as you I would probably just go to Wetzlar and see what could be done. I will be there on Thursday and Friday this week.

I cannot believe that a simple reflash of the camera firmware can take months. It is not like hard to find parts need to be swapped out or rare technician skill is needed. It is probably a half hour job at most.

Leica charges a premium price they should provide a premium owner experience. Not having enough staff to
...Show more

Iíve been thinking about going to Wetzlar, esp. since itís on my upcoming drive from Holland to Vienna.

Irony: my Alfa Romeo is also giving me trouble because of software issues that in the past would have been addressed by a quick mechanical fixÖ



Jun 10, 2024 at 06:32 AM
retrofocus
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Ditching M11, getting M10-R?


I mentioned it earlier here in posts - I believe the M11 is plagued by issues which we often see in electronics in general with early post-pandemic production runs. Inconsistent chip supply and of other electronic components, many left Leica in Germany at the time, too - and software design was not a strength of Leica at the time either.

The M10-R on the other hand came was made just before the pandemic started and released in July 2020. I never owned and used this camera model, but from all I read it would be my first choice currently independent on its still high pricing. High prices for used M10-R relates to obviously still high demand for it - especially since many shine away from the M11.



Jun 10, 2024 at 07:09 AM
johnvanr
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Ditching M11, getting M10-R?


Yes, the M10-R is pretty hard to come by.

Just spoke with Leica Wetzlar and they actually called back with more info. They suggest that since I'll be in the area anyway, I'll make an appointment to drop by so they can have a look at it. If it's a software issue, they can fix it probably right there and then. If hardware (e.g. the circuit board) is damaged, it'll take at least four weeks.

I can also ship it to them, but then it takes about a week to one and a half weeks before they even look at the camera to see what's wrong with it.

They were very apologetic about their long turnaround times, but then you would expect them to be.



Jun 10, 2024 at 07:45 AM
retrofocus
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Ditching M11, getting M10-R?


johnvanr wrote:
Yes, the M10-R is pretty hard to come by.

Just spoke with Leica Wetzlar and they actually called back with more info. They suggest that since I'll be in the area anyway, I'll make an appointment to drop by so they can have a look at it. If it's a software issue, they can fix it probably right there and then. If hardware (e.g. the circuit board) is damaged, it'll take at least four weeks.

I can also ship it to them, but then it takes about a week to one and a half weeks before they even look at
...Show more

One thing is for sure - meanwhile they must have a good routine to check malfunctioning M11s and how to repair them....



Jun 10, 2024 at 08:41 AM
wolfloid
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Ditching M11, getting M10-R?


They could not be more haughty ('oh, a used sale'),

This repulsive snobbery at Leica stores is not at all unusual. Not all staff, of course, but certainly some. Iíve encountered it in Germany and in the UK.



Jun 10, 2024 at 09:38 AM
1bwana1
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Ditching M11, getting M10-R?


wolfloid wrote:
This repulsive snobbery at Leica stores is not at all unusual. Not all staff, of course, but certainly some. Iíve encountered it in Germany and in the UK.


The only Leica stores I have been to was in Los Angeles and Florence Italy. Both were staffed by very friendly, helpful people. I have also bee to two Leica Boutiques inside general camera stores. They are the same as the rest of the store.



Jun 10, 2024 at 09:49 AM
 


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johnvanr
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Ditching M11, getting M10-R?


1bwana1 wrote:
The only Leica stores I have been to was in Los Angeles and Florence Italy. Both were staffed by very friendly, helpful people. I have also bee to two Leica Boutiques inside general camera stores. They are the same as the rest of the store.


My first experience was in Amsterdam and the guy didnít seem to have much of a clue. His colleague was busy helping another customer.

I did ask Leica Wetzlar if the stores could address my issue and they said probably not. They also said their Dutch repair partner could probably not fix it.

Maybe Leicaís real margins arenít as healthy as their prices lead us to believe, because youíd expect them to address these delays. Or maybe theyíre just completely overwhelmed by the drop in quality combined with their two-year warranty and sales success.



Jun 10, 2024 at 10:00 AM
johnvanr
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Ditching M11, getting M10-R?


wolfloid wrote:
This repulsive snobbery at Leica stores is not at all unusual. Not all staff, of course, but certainly some. Iíve encountered it in Germany and in the UK.


Canít speak for Leica, but itís that kind of attitude that often keeps me from going into posh brand stores, despite the fact that I can afford their stuff. This fake aura around what in the end is just stuff.



Jun 10, 2024 at 10:05 AM
retrofocus
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Ditching M11, getting M10-R?


1bwana1 wrote:
The only Leica stores I have been to was in Los Angeles and Florence Italy. Both were staffed by very friendly, helpful people. I have also bee to two Leica Boutiques inside general camera stores. They are the same as the rest of the store.


I second this experience with 4 Leica stores I have been - the two in NYC, one in Montreal, and the new one in Heidelberg, Germany. In all of them I was treated very friendly and nobody pushed me to do anything. I purposely kept my Leica gear inside my bag and didn't disclose if I was a Leica user or not when entering the stores. When I didn't show too much interest of potentially purchasing something I was never offered a coffee or other drink either. This is okay with me - they have to conduct a business. I enjoyed mostly the art galleries in the stores and screening photo books they had.



Jun 10, 2024 at 10:32 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Ditching M11, getting M10-R?


Ditching M11, getting M10-R?

That's what I did, and I've been happy with my decision. However, I had bad experiences with a few M11 bodies early on, so I decided I didn't need the aggravation.

I've shot with a few M10-R versions, including the black, silver, and BP. I had an issue with a black M10-R where the shutter had to be replaced, but my current one has been flawless since day one. These cameras are well-made but can be prone to problems, so I prefer to get one with mature firmware and several production years to iron out any issues.



Jun 10, 2024 at 10:36 AM
RustyRus
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Ditching M11, getting M10-R?


johnvanr wrote:
During the last firmware update my M11 completely locked up. And I mean completely. Taking the battery in and out, leaving it out for a day, using different cards, nothing makes a difference. The camera doesn't turn on. Leica Amsterdam says it needs to be sent in and it will take months.

I will call Leica Germany and ask them if there's a quicker solution, but quite frankly it's just p*ssing me off that anything could take that long. At the same time, I want to stick with the rangefinder experience.

So, I'm thinking of sending the M11 in and
...Show more

Im not siding with Leica here at all but I think you should call out that you interrupted the firmware update- This firmware update took much longer than normal and you said in your last post about this you got impatient.








Jun 10, 2024 at 10:38 AM
1bwana1
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Ditching M11, getting M10-R?


johnvanr wrote:
Yes, the M10-R is pretty hard to come by.

Just spoke with Leica Wetzlar and they actually called back with more info. They suggest that since I'll be in the area anyway, I'll make an appointment to drop by so they can have a look at it. If it's a software issue, they can fix it probably right there and then. If hardware (e.g. the circuit board) is damaged, it'll take at least four weeks.

I can also ship it to them, but then it takes about a week to one and a half weeks before they even look at
...Show more

I figured that the camera re-flash in itself would be trivial while you wait kind of thing if you could get to a place that was capable. Glad that it looks like it is working out for you.



Jun 10, 2024 at 10:48 AM
ZdevilH1
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Ditching M11, getting M10-R?


That's a bummer, the M11's continue to suffer which is a shame. That is the main reason I am skipping this generation and waiting to see what the future M12 may bring. Hope you get yours sorted out.


Jun 10, 2024 at 11:29 AM
1bwana1
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Ditching M11, getting M10-R?




ZdevilH1 wrote:
That's a bummer, the M11's continue to suffer which is a shame. That is the main reason I am skipping this generation and waiting to see what the future M12 may bring. Hope you get yours sorted out.


Thus problem appears to be user error, not a manufacturer fault. The most recent firmware update took a long time to reboot and he appears to have interrupted the process. From everything I have seen the majority of the M11s are now stable and operating properly.



Jun 10, 2024 at 11:51 AM
ZdevilH1
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Ditching M11, getting M10-R?


1bwana1 wrote:
Thus problem appears to be user error, not a manufacturer fault. The most recent firmware update took a long time to reboot and he appears to have interrupted the process. From everything I have seen the majority of the M11s are now stable and operating properly.


Understood, thanks for the clarification.



Jun 10, 2024 at 12:04 PM
Andrew CD
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Ditching M11, getting M10-R?


wolfloid wrote:
This repulsive snobbery at Leica stores is not at all unusual. Not all staff, of course, but certainly some. Iíve encountered it in Germany and in the UK.


I am not surprised to hear this.

I called the London Leica store to enquire about having three middle-aged (and not purchased from them) Leica lenses 6-bit coded. As I result, I will be having them coded by Skyllaney. I will not be contacting the London store again.



Jun 10, 2024 at 01:14 PM
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