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First M12 Rumors (Leicarumors.com)

  
 
Fred Miranda
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · First M12 Rumors (Leicarumors.com)


BPsmith511 wrote:
Yeah, the digital-film aspect really appeals to me. Honestly I'd grab an M3 or M6 or something but at this point in life the film workflow is not for me. But seeing at it's my first Leica I don't think going all in with an M-D is my brightest idea. That's why the regular 262 interested me, no live-view so more minimal but a screen there if you need to review/change setting.


I choose to shoot film primarily because I enjoy developing it myself. Otherwise, I'd likely rely on my M10-R as my main camera, with the M-D serving as a backup. I agree that the M262 is quite minimalistic as well, particularly if you train yourself not to chimp all the time.



May 11, 2024 at 08:57 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · First M12 Rumors (Leicarumors.com)


flash wrote:
The shutter mech is in front of the sensor so I don't see how that would help/ An M-D style camera would. Or they could just push the lens mount ring out a few mm and keep the body the same.

Gordon


I was thinking of space on the side of the sensor where the gears that operate the shutter blades would be removed.

Image from: https://www.overgaard.dk/leica-M11-digital-rangefinder-camera.html








May 11, 2024 at 10:33 PM
Thury
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · First M12 Rumors (Leicarumors.com)


There are some things in the physical world that no amount of wishful thinking will ever change and technology will only change slowly at best.

In a current M body, going from the front to the back, you have :
- 1 - the lens mount flange is the 0 point from which we measure. The thickness of this flange will be within the flange-focal distance.
- 2 - the flange focal distance between the lens mount flange and the sensor (film or digital). Everything like rangefinder or shutter mechanisms are located on the sides within this distance so taking them out will not change this. Nothing will change this except changing the lens mount.
- 3 - the sensor has a non zero thickness.
- 4 - maybe some sort of metal wall to enclose the body and make it light, dust and water tight. One might dispense with it if the rear screen assembly is up to the task.
- 5 - a rear screen.

If you want IBIS, you have to add some space for it between 3 - the sensor and 4 - the rear wall. You will gain some space by integrating the sensor within this space so it might be just changing "3 - sensor thickness" into "3' - IBIS thickness including the sensor". Anyhow, this will be thicker than just the sensor and this is where you get a fatter body.

You also get a bigger power requirement.

Fat body and big battery: back to the future of the M240.



May 12, 2024 at 12:09 AM
SNJOps
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · First M12 Rumors (Leicarumors.com)


Want I hope Leica does is keep the traditional optical rangefinder for M12 but then release an ďE12Ē alongside it that has an EVF so people can make a choice.


May 12, 2024 at 03:25 AM
brick33308
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · First M12 Rumors (Leicarumors.com)


Fred Miranda wrote:
I choose to shoot film primarily because I enjoy developing it myself. Otherwise, I'd likely rely on my M10-R as my main camera, with the M-D serving as a backup. I agree that the M262 is quite minimalistic as well, particularly if you train yourself not to chimp all the time.


are you developing color film? Years back I processed Tri-X, no problem, but stayed away from color developing because I was told the fumes are toxic. Maybe not so much anymore?



May 12, 2024 at 09:54 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · First M12 Rumors (Leicarumors.com)


brick33308 wrote:
are you developing color film? Years back I processed Tri-X, no problem, but stayed away from color developing because I was told the fumes are toxic. Maybe not so much anymore?


Yes, so far I've developed 10 color rolls and 1 black and white roll. Developing the B&W is easier, but both only take about 20 minutes. I've tried doing 2 rolls at a time. Started about 6 months ago: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1825676/24#16395730

Here are some samples from my first rolls using the Leica M2 and MP:










































May 12, 2024 at 10:43 AM
brick33308
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · First M12 Rumors (Leicarumors.com)


Fred Miranda wrote:
Yes, so far I've developed 10 color rolls and 1 black and white roll. Developing the B&W is easier, but both only take about 20 minutes. I've tried doing 2 rolls at a time. Started about 6 months ago: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1825676/24#16395730

Here are some samples from my first rolls using the Leica M2 and MP:


those are all great - there's just something about the look that differs from digital that's so appealing. Do you use a hand meter or just rely on rules like the sunny 16 rule that I seem to remember? or is film more forgiving in terms of not blowing highlights?

Here's an interesting video I saw yesterday for Leica film shooters. Warning: don't watch it if you've already blown your photography budget




May 13, 2024 at 06:31 AM
retrofocus
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · First M12 Rumors (Leicarumors.com)


Fred Miranda wrote:
It appears that the rumored Leica M12 is shifting towards a more computerized and touchscreen-driven direction, possibly at the expense of the classic German engineering and mechanical feel. Traditional Leica fans might stick with film or current models, but these options could become rarer as Leica tries to attract a broader, younger audience.


Finally! Even I still believe that Leica will not depart from the rangefinder M system but will have either full EVF- or hybrid based focusing systems offered as camera in parallel. Sounds like the "EVF M" might become reality!



May 13, 2024 at 10:43 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · First M12 Rumors (Leicarumors.com)


highdesertmesa wrote:
There certainly is a vocal portion of the M user base that agrees with you. But it might also be a minority of M users. Many use M cameras only because it's the native mount for M lenses, and it's relatively small.

Regardless, I have to think Leica finally developed a hybrid rangefinder that still provides a rangefinder-like OVF experience. Perhaps it will be a "rangefinder by wire" system that communicates the lens cam movement to a digital overlay on the OVF


Leica could try releasing the M12 in two versions: one with a rangefinder and another with an EVF. They could see which one sells better to figure out if rangefinder shooting is essential for their customers. Many might even buy both!
On the other hand, if they can make a hybrid camera that does both well, it could be a big hit. Fuji has tried something similar with the X100 and XPro lines, but imo, it falls short of delivering the authentic rangefinder experience.



May 13, 2024 at 11:02 AM
RustyRus
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · First M12 Rumors (Leicarumors.com)


Fred Miranda wrote:
Leica could try releasing the M12 in two versions: one with a rangefinder and another with an EVF. They could see which one sells better to figure out if rangefinder shooting is essential for their customers. Many might even buy both!
On the other hand, if they can make a hybrid camera that does both well, it could be a big hit. Fuji has tried something similar with the X100 and XPro lines, but imo, it falls short of delivering the authentic rangefinder experience.


Shooting a Rangefinder is so much better than EVF IMO in its current state-

If Leica did try and do a hybrid or EVF only- I hope they focus on the UX and how to obtain focus- For example what has been done with Eye AF for Nikon and MF lenses.

The current Contrast Detect Focus peaking with magnfication isn't fast enough for moving subjects or quick focus- I don't know what the answer is but this needs to be the key to there success. Putting an EVF on won't be great, thinking through the process of an EVF and capturing focus as quickly as the RF would be ideal.

We will see what happens.



May 13, 2024 at 11:10 AM
 


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retrofocus
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · First M12 Rumors (Leicarumors.com)


Fred Miranda wrote:
Leica could try releasing the M12 in two versions: one with a rangefinder and another with an EVF. They could see which one sells better to figure out if rangefinder shooting is essential for their customers. Many might even buy both!
On the other hand, if they can make a hybrid camera that does both well, it could be a big hit. Fuji has tried something similar with the X100 and XPro lines, but imo, it falls short of delivering the authentic rangefinder experience.


A well made hybrid with rangefinder and EVF would combine best of two worlds when it's made right. I often find myself in the middle of the road here between OVF and EVF - it is purely situation specific where I prefer one or the other. Repeating patterns as a pain to focus with rangefinder for example whereas it is much better for low light focusing than EVF.

The only problem I see coming no matter if hybrid or two version camera approach: the sales price.



May 13, 2024 at 12:09 PM
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · First M12 Rumors (Leicarumors.com)


RustyRus wrote:
Shooting a Rangefinder is so much better than EVF IMO in its current state-

If Leica did try and do a hybrid or EVF only- I hope they focus on the UX and how to obtain focus- For example what has been done with Eye AF for Nikon and MF lenses.

The current Contrast Detect Focus peaking with magnfication isn't fast enough for moving subjects or quick focus- I don't know what the answer is but this needs to be the key to there success. Putting an EVF on won't be great, thinking through the process of an EVF and capturing
...Show more

I agree. Using focus magnification slows me down more than relying on the rangefinder patch alone. While peaking without magnification is acceptable, its accuracy varies depending on the scene contrast.



May 13, 2024 at 12:30 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · First M12 Rumors (Leicarumors.com)


retrofocus wrote:
A well made hybrid with rangefinder and EVF would combine best of two worlds when it's made right. I often find myself in the middle of the road here between OVF and EVF - it is purely situation specific where I prefer one or the other. Repeating patterns as a pain to focus with rangefinder for example whereas it is much better for low light focusing than EVF.

The only problem I see coming no matter if hybrid or two version camera approach: the sales price.


Have you tried shooting with the X-Pro3 or X100 series cameras? They offer both EVF and OVF, and while it's okay, many would argue that the Leica rangefinder patch provides a much better experience.

A well made hybrid with rangefinder and EVF...

That's the crucial question: What defines a well-made hybrid viewfinder? Is it inferior to the rangefinder system we currently have? If the answer is yes, it would be a significant disappointment. Therefore, if Leica cannot integrate both systems without noticeably compromising the rangefinder experience, the alternative might be to offer two separate cameras without compromises. Allow their customer base to determine which viewfinder system should receive continued investment in R&D for future models...The rangefinder system reached its zenith long ago.



May 13, 2024 at 12:37 PM
johnvanr
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · First M12 Rumors (Leicarumors.com)


Fred Miranda wrote:
I agree. Using focus magnification slows me down more than relying on the rangefinder patch alone. While peaking without magnification is acceptable, its accuracy varies depending on the scene contrast.


Agreed. The only MF experiences that are okay in modern cameras, to me, are Nikonís implementation in the Zf and Canonís with EF and RF mount lenses in the R series (at least the cameras I know). I donít fully trust focus peaking and focus magnification is horribly slow.



May 13, 2024 at 12:38 PM
formula4speed
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · First M12 Rumors (Leicarumors.com)


Aside from the focusing differences, wouldn't you also lose the ability to use frame lines if the EVF is reading off the sensor? I.E. you couldn't see outside the field of view of your lens?


May 13, 2024 at 02:18 PM
johnvanr
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · First M12 Rumors (Leicarumors.com)


formula4speed wrote:
Aside from the focusing differences, wouldn't you also lose the ability to use frame lines if the EVF is reading off the sensor? I.E. you couldn't see outside the field of view of your lens?


Probably.

Personally, Iíve never cared about that and find it overhyped. A lot of street shooters shoot at 28mm, which is the edge of the rangefinder window anyway.

You get a bit of space at 35mm and quite a bit at 50mm, so maybe itís handy for the 50mm-shooters.



May 13, 2024 at 02:28 PM
retrofocus
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · First M12 Rumors (Leicarumors.com)


Fred Miranda wrote:
Have you tried shooting with the X-Pro3 or X100 series cameras? They offer both EVF and OVF, and while it's okay, many would argue that the Leica rangefinder patch provides a much better experience.

That's the crucial question: What defines a well-made hybrid viewfinder? Is it inferior to the rangefinder system we currently have? If the answer is yes, it would be a significant disappointment. Therefore, if Leica cannot integrate both systems without noticeably compromising the rangefinder experience, the alternative might be to offer two separate cameras without compromises. Allow their customer base to determine which viewfinder system should receive
...Show more

I have no experience with any of the Fuji-based MLC offerings. I don't like the APS-C based sensor size and therefore excluded Fuji for me since my preference is full-frame. IMO the most likely scenario is a separate Leica EVF-M based camera in parallel to the traditional rangefinder M12.



May 13, 2024 at 02:54 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · First M12 Rumors (Leicarumors.com)


Fred Miranda wrote:
I agree. Using focus magnification slows me down more than relying on the rangefinder patch alone. While peaking without magnification is acceptable, its accuracy varies depending on the scene contrast.


Not only that, but finding the sharpest area of focus via magnification in the EVF* is nearly impossible when stopped down. Lenses like the 28 Summaron with its maximum aperture of f/5.6 depend on the rangefinder, otherwise we're left with just the DOF scale.

*At least for the 5M dot EVFs I've tried. I've not tried the 9M dot EVFs.

---------------------------------------------

johnvanr wrote:
Probably.

Personally, Iíve never cared about that and find it overhyped. A lot of street shooters shoot at 28mm, which is the edge of the rangefinder window anyway.

You get a bit of space at 35mm and quite a bit at 50mm, so maybe itís handy for the 50mm-shooters.


If one has a deeper set eye socket or wears glasses, seeing the all the edges of the 28mm frame at the same time isn't possible anyway. The OVF as a "what's about to walk into view" tool is indeed limited, IMO.



May 13, 2024 at 02:58 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · First M12 Rumors (Leicarumors.com)


highdesertmesa wrote:
Not only that, but finding the sharpest area of focus via magnification in the EVF* is nearly impossible when stopped down. Lenses like the 28 Summaron with its maximum aperture of f/5.6 depend on the rangefinder, otherwise we're left with just the DOF scale.

*At least for the 5M dot EVFs I've tried. I've not tried the 9M dot EVFs.

---------------------------------------------

If one has a deeper set eye socket or wears glasses, seeing the all the edges of the 28mm frame at the same time isn't possible anyway. The OVF as a "what's about to walk into view" tool is indeed limited, IMO.


Yes, that's a valid point when using slower lenses or fast ones stopped down. That's where relying solely on magnification might be the best approach, trusting our eyes.



May 13, 2024 at 04:01 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · First M12 Rumors (Leicarumors.com)



Fred Miranda wrote:
Yes, that's a valid point when using slower lenses or fast ones stopped down. That's where relying solely on magnification might be the best approach, trusting our eyes.


Oh, I meant I need the rangefinder most for that. With the magnified EVF, itís really hard to see exactly if I nailed focus. Example would be at f/5.6 and a subject at middle distance. In such a scenario, I have to hunt for focus when using the EVF. The EVF resolution just isnít high enough to discern focus unless Iím using a much wider aperture. Even at f/5.6, missing focus slightly is noticeable at 1:1 on 60mp.



May 13, 2024 at 05:25 PM
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