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Complement to M11M?

  
 
torifile
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Complement to M11M?


I fought and fought the urge to get a monochrom but in the end the draw was too strong. I donít need to 2 M11 series cameras so Iím looking to move to another body. The most obvious option would be an SL series camera so I could use my M mount lenses but I want to make sure Iím not missing anything.

If Iím to change camera bodies, I guess autofocus would be nice. Iím nearly out of the soccer-game-shooting phase so I donít need the crazy AF performance of the A9 or anything. But good autofocus would be a ďnice to haveĒ. My daughter is a dancer and I think I would love to have a camera that could shoot her performances in a dark theater.

I am leaning toward the SL2-S or SL2 but other camera systems are possibilities too. Any good suggestions for a complement to my M11M?



Apr 20, 2024 at 10:21 PM
ottokbre
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Complement to M11M?


Do you want to share lenses between the systems?
Is size a concern? The M system is pretty small.
Do you want to carry both simultaneously or are you a person that sets out with a single camera and the mission to shoot that style?



Apr 20, 2024 at 10:37 PM
torifile
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Complement to M11M?


I really love my M lenses so, yes, Iíd like to be able to share them.

Size is a bit of a concern but it will not be a deciding factor for me. The reason I lift weights is so I can carry a lot without complaint.

Do I go out with a particular style in mind? Yes, i do. But Iím not against carrying 2 cameras if the situation is 50/50.

ottokbre wrote:
Do you want to share lenses between the systems?
Is size a concern? The M system is pretty small.
Do you want to carry both simultaneously or are you a person that sets out with a single camera and the mission to shoot that style?




Apr 20, 2024 at 10:50 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Complement to M11M?


I just picked up the SL2-S.

Similarly, I'm not looking for "insane AF" capability. Just was looking for something reasonable "for those times, when". I picked up the little Panny 85/1.8 and it seems plenty quick enough. Tested the Sigma 150-600 in the store, again ... quick enough, just not lighting quick.


Now, for the good stuff ... put my M glass on it.


While the SL body is certainly larger / heavier than my M's ... it ergonomically carries well (imo). On paper, my Hassy X2D II is smaller / lighter than the SL. The grip of the Hassy is "more comfortable" ... and yet, I can one hand carry the SL better with less fatigue. Of course, that might be due to the fact that I'm mounting light lenses onto the body, compared to the mass of glass on the X1D II.

I've only had my SL2-S for a week now, and I've only mounted up my 40 Cron and 75/2.4 Elmarit for just a few shots ... but the pairing of the M glass on the SL series is off to a really good start. For reasons yet (no formal comps) unknown (maybe better critical focus), my little 40 Cron "seems" sharper on the SL2-S than on my M10R. Placebo effect probably, but I was expecting some disappointment going from 40MP > 24MP, and am pleased with the initial take away out of camera. One day I'll pixel peep the diff's, but not feeling compelled to do so right now.

That said, for a focusing perspective ... AF is good, MF is really good. Not quite the same as manually focusing on ground glass in the SLR Film era, but nice.

My .02 is that for "speed focusing" MF lenses, the rangefinder is supreme. For precision focusing, the SL is an excellent / preferred tool. "Punching in / out" of precision focus is well implemented via the joystick.

One thing I like about the SL2 (which I can do with the M, but it seems far better integrated on the SL), is to use precision focus to set the distance / aperture I want for my zone on my M lenses. Then, the M lens stays parked in the zone, and I'm golden for zone focusing. Whereas when using AF lenses (and fly by wire) without distance scales, it is more difficult to set / keep a zone.

I can do the same on the M, via the LCD, but through the viewfinder is a plus (imo). One other thing, is that the SL can "gain up" the viewfinder in extreme low light (but, not gain up the image) for the viewfinder as a focusing aid. RF focusing in uber-dim lighting has it's challenges ... and when the patch is hard to see (subject / light challenges) ... coming out of the viewfinder to recheck the LCD takes you "out of the moment", for a moment. Keeping it in the viewfinder is nice. I've not tested it in extreme, real world application yet (i.e. no club shots with it), but my testing lends good expectations.


My .02 is that AF glass is only a complement to my M glass, not a replacement. And, looking at the number of options into the L system, the choices of good, great, amazing glass is a la carte. I'll probably keep my M lens investment as my preferred lineup.
Case in point, I've got the M 75/2.4 and the L 85/1.8 ... the AF for "those times" when I want to shoot portraiture and eye focus might come in handy, etc. Otherwise, I'll likely just use M glass. Time will tell.


Short answer, the integration / implementation of M lenses on the SL is a winner, imo.



Unless you want to abandon the M, I don't see much reason to look anywhere else ... UNLESS ... you look at the APS-C Leica CL or TL2 (I've had both). They are both pocket rockets, with the CL having the EVF that implements well with M glass, too.

Anyway, my .02 ... SL2-S is off to a good start.


HTH






Apr 21, 2024 at 10:48 AM
torifile
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Complement to M11M?


This is incredibly helpful. Thanks! I was thinking of picking up the SL2 or SL2-S already and this is tipping me in that direction. Iíll keep my eyes peeled for one.

RustyBug wrote:
I just picked up the SL2-S.

Similarly, I'm not looking for "insane AF" capability. Just was looking for something reasonable "for those times, when". I picked up the little Panny 85/1.8 and it seems plenty quick enough. Tested the Sigma 150-600 in the store, again ... quick enough, just not lighting quick.

Now, for the good stuff ... put my M glass on it.

While the SL body is certainly larger / heavier than my M's ... it ergonomically carries well (imo). On paper, my Hassy X2D II is smaller / lighter than the SL. The grip of the Hassy is "more
...Show more



Apr 21, 2024 at 12:25 PM
ottokbre
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Complement to M11M?


I would think the SL2 would be great. I don't have any experience with them though. But the EVF, sensor compatibility with M lenses, and convenient push in focusing should all make for a great experience.

If budget and or size is a concern I think the Nikon Z is pretty solid for M glass too.



Apr 21, 2024 at 05:56 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Complement to M11M?


ottokbre wrote:
I would think the SL2 would be great. I don't have any experience with them though. But the EVF, sensor compatibility with M lenses, and convenient push in focusing should all make for a great experience.

If budget and or size is a concern I think the Nikon Z is pretty solid for M glass too.


Do adapted lenses to the Z (or other) platform carry over the communication of exif information from (coded) M lenses / profiles, etc.? Just curious.



Apr 21, 2024 at 07:33 PM
goodbokeh
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Complement to M11M?


torifile wrote:
I fought and fought the urge to get a monochrom but in the end the draw was too strong. I donít need to 2 M11 series cameras so Iím looking to move to another body. The most obvious option would be an SL series camera so I could use my M mount lenses but I want to make sure Iím not missing anything.

If Iím to change camera bodies, I guess autofocus would be nice. Iím nearly out of the soccer-game-shooting phase so I donít need the crazy AF performance of the A9 or anything. But good autofocus would be
...Show more

Torifile, because you would sometimes be using the camera in a dark theater at higher shutter speeds with fast action, the SL2-S is better adapted for that role. Even with just CDAF, if used with a recent Panasonic S prime or the Leica SL 35 & 50 Asphs (not the slower focusing APOs) it should work adequately with AFc, although I'd still use AFs myself.

I really enjoy my SL2 but in your theater use the 47MP maximum resolution would be lost above 1600 ISO because of sensor noise. The same resolution/ISO lid holds true for my other high MP color (Bayer) bodies, the (50MP) Sony A1, (60MP) Sony A7R5, and (102MP) Fuji 100S.

Another option to closely match your M11M would be the new 60MP SL3. For that dark theater there may be some noise/DR benefit to running the SL3 at the medium 36MP or small 18MP sensor settings. I recall hearing of a Red Dot (Leica Miami) test saying the SL3 resolution step down matched the SL2-S in low noise/high ISO. But I can't find that YouTube video and I'm skeptical.

BTW, Reid Reviews, $40/year pay wall (well worth it) has in-depth reviews of the SL3, SL2 & SL2-S.

https://www.reidreviews.com/

Edited on Apr 22, 2024 at 01:31 PM · View previous versions



Apr 22, 2024 at 01:08 PM
retrofocus
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Complement to M11M?


RustyBug wrote:
Do adapted lenses to the Z (or other) platform carry over the communication of exif information from (coded) M lenses / profiles, etc.? Just curious.


They can't - no other brand has the 6-bit readout which is located at the M-mount. Not sure if the M/L adapter carries this information to the SL camera either. The other EXIF based data with M cameras drive from estimates like the shown aperture.



Apr 22, 2024 at 01:18 PM
 


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retrofocus
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Complement to M11M?


ottokbre wrote:
I would think the SL2 would be great. I don't have any experience with them though. But the EVF, sensor compatibility with M lenses, and convenient push in focusing should all make for a great experience.

If budget and or size is a concern I think the Nikon Z is pretty solid for M glass too.


+1. If I needed an EVF-based camera in combination with my M and LTM lenses, I would currently opt for the Z instead of the SL series. Better price/quality ratio. I turned off the automatic lens recognition on my M 240 cameras, too - so if this doesn't work on a third party camera, it is of no issue for my usage.



Apr 22, 2024 at 01:23 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Complement to M11M?


retrofocus wrote:
They can't - no other brand has the 6-bit readout which is located at the M-mount. Not sure if the M/L adapter carries this information to the SL camera either. The other EXIF based data with M cameras drive from estimates like the shown aperture.


The aperture is still a "guess" since the aperture is physical / manual (vs. electronic). But, the lens info that is coded will transfer via the M/L adapter to the exif on the L bodies.



Apr 22, 2024 at 07:54 PM
oscartb
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Complement to M11M?


I pair my M system with a Nikon Z body. The techart M to Z autofocus adapter lets me use all my M glass with autofocus for the situations where using an M is difficult (longer lenses, shooting one handed, IBIS needed, etc). The only native Z lenses I use are the 40mm f/2 and the 105 macro, for everything else I use my M glass with AF.


Apr 22, 2024 at 08:44 PM
psyclism
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Complement to M11M?


I'm in exactly the same boat as you. I succumbed to the siren song of the M10M, and as a result, no longer can justify keeping my M10R around for the occasional color shots. Couple that with the fact that I'm frequently being asked to photograph my daughter and her friends at her *obnoxiously frequent* dance events, and I decided that a color camera with decent auto focus was the logical next step.

So with that, I decided to give the Nikon Zf a try. It's relatively inexpensive, and is getting mostly glowing reviews. I purchased the TTArtisans 6 bit M to Z adapter, which enables focus confirmation and even "trap focus" (ie hold down shutter, rotate focus ring and camera will fire when focus is reached) when using the MF glass. The camera and adapter have worked out fairly well so far, but the EVF in this camera still isn't quite as sharp as I'd like for critical focus. The 50mm f/.95 TTArtisans lens I use for most portraits (in addition to the CV 75 f/1.5) are difficult to get "just right" on this camera. However, I also bought a used copy of the Nikon 24-70 f/4 zoom, and the camera has done a remarkable job of autofocus in less than ideal lighting thus far. 3D tracking is very cool, but does sometimes decide to arbitrarily switch subjects.

The one major complaint I have about the Zf is that the menu system is a nightmare. There are just. so. many. options, many of them iterative, and it's very difficult to get things configured properly. I had to watch a 1.5 hour YouTube video in order to finally understand how to configure focus confirmation and 3d tracking/focus trapping with the 6-bit MF adapter ring. Oh, and the shutter button is very quick to action.. there is almost no difference between half press and shutter actuation.

I'd love to try the SL2-S as well to compare, but haven't been able to find a good used copy posted recently.



Apr 23, 2024 at 11:45 AM
ottokbre
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Complement to M11M?


RustyBug wrote:
Do adapted lenses to the Z (or other) platform carry over the communication of exif information from (coded) M lenses / profiles, etc.? Just curious.


I never looked TBH. I'm guessing there is no provision for that since with Nikon F DSLR you had to program in manual lenses ID and jog through a menu or assign a func-button which I always do.

Last year I did some testing with a Sony A7C and Nikon Z6 with some more challenging CV M-mount lenses and the Nikon faired better on the sensor.



Apr 23, 2024 at 07:07 PM
tzhang4284
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Complement to M11M?


psyclism wrote:
I'm in exactly the same boat as you. I succumbed to the siren song of the M10M, and as a result, no longer can justify keeping my M10R around for the occasional color shots. Couple that with the fact that I'm frequently being asked to photograph my daughter and her friends at her *obnoxiously frequent* dance events, and I decided that a color camera with decent auto focus was the logical next step.

So with that, I decided to give the Nikon Zf a try. It's relatively inexpensive, and is getting mostly glowing reviews. I purchased the TTArtisans 6 bit M
...Show more

How does the color output from the Nikon ZF compare to the M10R with Leica lenses out of curiosity? Most of the output I've seen from the ZF seem to have a different color rendition.



Apr 23, 2024 at 07:19 PM
torifile
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Complement to M11M?


I think Iím settled on the zf, too, given its autofocus and low light performance and downright cheap price (coming from only shooting Leica the past 5 years).

I am waiting for the ttartisans adapter before I open the package though. Hoping a good used copy turns up here before then. Iím a little allergic to paying retail.

psyclism wrote:
I'm in exactly the same boat as you. I succumbed to the siren song of the M10M, and as a result, no longer can justify keeping my M10R around for the occasional color shots. Couple that with the fact that I'm frequently being asked to photograph my daughter and her friends at her *obnoxiously frequent* dance events, and I decided that a color camera with decent auto focus was the logical next step.

So with that, I decided to give the Nikon Zf a try. It's relatively inexpensive, and is getting mostly glowing reviews. I purchased the TTArtisans 6 bit M
...Show more



Apr 23, 2024 at 07:40 PM
psyclism
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Complement to M11M?


I feel like the raw images are colder and more sterile straight out of camera compared to the M10R. But tweaking in LR solves that for the most part.

tzhang4284 wrote:
How does the color output from the Nikon ZF compare to the M10R with Leica lenses out of curiosity? Most of the output I've seen from the ZF seem to have a different color rendition.




Apr 23, 2024 at 09:21 PM
psyclism
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Complement to M11M?


The TTArtisans 6 bit M to Z adapter transmits lens data to the camera. No aperture info of course, but focal length and model. Or with uncoded lenses thereís a selector dial that lets you set focal length along with a reset button to transmit updated data to the camera if you swap out lenses in one session.

RustyBug wrote:
Do adapted lenses to the Z (or other) platform carry over the communication of exif information from (coded) M lenses / profiles, etc.? Just curious.




Apr 23, 2024 at 09:31 PM







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