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M11 White Balance

  
 
ksrhee2405
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · M11 White Balance


I have had the M11P for a few weeks, and I noticed that for indoor shootings, it does not get the white balance correctly, and I have to adjust it constantly. I don't see the same issue with my Q3. Of course, I have always adjusted settings when using other cameras (Nikon, Fuji, etc.), but the amount of correction seems rather excessive. I was curious if others experienced the same. I need to do more testing to figure out what's going on, but I thought I would ask in the forum.


Apr 13, 2024 at 05:27 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · M11 White Balance


ksrhee2405 wrote:
I have had the M11P for a few weeks, and I noticed that for indoor shootings, it does not get the white balance correctly, and I have to adjust it constantly. I don't see the same issue with my Q3. Of course, I have always adjusted settings when using other cameras (Nikon, Fuji, etc.), but the amount of correction seems rather excessive. I was curious if others experienced the same. I need to do more testing to figure out what's going on, but I thought I would ask in the forum.


Referring to AWB? I have not heard inaccuracy with the M11. Can you post an image showing the incorrect WB?



Apr 19, 2024 at 02:29 PM
ksrhee2405
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · M11 White Balance


Fred Miranda wrote:
Referring to AWB? I have not heard inaccuracy with the M11. Can you post an image showing the incorrect WB?


Yes, AWB. Here are two photos. One is my M11, the other is Q3. As you can see same setting but different results. All using AWB and 28mm lens.

The Q3 file is much more accurate to what the colors should have been.






M11 AWB







Q3 AWB




Apr 20, 2024 at 05:39 PM
1bwana1
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · M11 White Balance


here is an interesting video by Sean Tucker on a unique approach to white balance. I am giving it a try since anything can be corrected in post in case I don't like it.




Apr 20, 2024 at 05:43 PM
ksrhee2405
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · M11 White Balance


One more thing. When I use the gray card to create the custom WB, the M11 returned the photo that is close to the one taken by the Q3.


Apr 20, 2024 at 05:45 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · M11 White Balance


ksrhee2405 wrote:
One more thing. When I use the gray card to create the custom WB, the M11 returned the photo that is close to the one taken by the Q3.


A helpful feature found in some cameras, like Fujifilm models, is AWB Shift, which lets users adjust the output of automatic white balance. Introducing this feature to Leica cameras would be a great addition. It could help address the ongoing discussion about the M11's magenta shift and inaccurate WB, as mentioned above.







Apr 20, 2024 at 05:58 PM
ksrhee2405
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · M11 White Balance


1bwana1 wrote:
here is an interesting video by Sean Tucker on a unique approach to white balance. I am giving it a try since anything can be corrected in post in case I don't like it.



Thanks for sharing. Very interesting approach. I tend to use AWB and then adjust if I want to adjust since most cameras seem to get it "right" with AWB. Of course, I found the M11 is an exception. In fact, the M11 thought I was taking the picture in daylight instead of the Tungsten light. Perhaps the M11 programmer saw this video and decided to implemented it - ha. ha.



Apr 20, 2024 at 07:22 PM
ksrhee2405
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · M11 White Balance


Fred Miranda wrote:
A helpful feature found in some cameras, like Fujifilm models, is AWB Shift, which lets users adjust the output of automatic white balance. Introducing this feature to Leica cameras would be a great addition. It could help address the ongoing discussion about the M11's magenta shift and inaccurate WB, as mentioned above.


Thanks, Fred. Yes, I found that to be helpful in my Fuji XT-5. What is annoying is that if Leica can get the AWB "right" with the Q3, why couldn't they do the same with the M11



Apr 20, 2024 at 07:23 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · M11 White Balance


What lens was used on the M11-P?

Wondering if the lens (I realize it would seem it shouldn't matter) has an inherent cast that shifts differently (over correction or under correction).

Do you have other comps, in different lighting. Again, "shouldn't matter" but, for troubleshooting purposes ...

Also, what is the exif for the two shots. Exposure seems a bit different, too.

Might try again with the framing (FOV) equalized. In the Q3, the foreground of the counter contributes much more white to the scene. Given that you said it responded similar to the Q3 with gray card ... how does the Q3 respond if you move it in closer, to eliminate the foreground counter (equivalent to other lens FOV)?

Might check to ensure metering modes / profiles are all set the same. I find it interesting that M11P images seems to be warmer overall, but the shadows of the lower cabinet doors seem cooler. That's moving highlights warmer and shadows cooler ... AWB doesnt' really do that. That seems more "profile" oriented. Just brainstorming here ...




Apr 20, 2024 at 08:50 PM
ksrhee2405
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · M11 White Balance


RustyBug wrote:
What lens was used on the M11-P?

Wondering if the lens (I realize it would seem it shouldn't matter) has an inherent cast that shifts differently (over correction or under correction).

Do you have other comps, in different lighting. Again, "shouldn't matter" but, for troubleshooting purposes ...

Also, what is the exif for the two shots. Exposure seems a bit different, too.

Might try again with the framing (FOV) equalized. In the Q3, the foreground of the counter contributes much more white to the scene. Given that you said it responded similar to the Q3 with gray card ... how does the
...Show more

Rusty,

Thanks for your post. Excellent suggestions. Initially, I thought there was a fault with the lens. So, I switch out with several other Leica and Voigtlander lenses to make sure. They all gave consistent results. I then put the camera on manual so that I can shoot with similar ISO, aperture, and shutter speed. Same results. I then tried the same experiment with Fuji XT-5, Nikon D850, Panasonic 4/3, and Ricoh GRIII. Same results. The only outlier was my M11-P. When I created the custom WB using the gray card, everything worked fine with my M11-P.

Upon reexamining raw files, I did discover that the M11 was getting the temperature right but not the tint. When I adjusted the tint, the results matched what I was getting in other cameras.



Apr 21, 2024 at 09:26 AM
 


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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · M11 White Balance


ksrhee2405 wrote:
Rusty,

Thanks for your post. Excellent suggestions. Initially, I thought there was a fault with the lens. So, I switch out with several other Leica and Voigtlander lenses to make sure. They all gave consistent results. I then put the camera on manual so that I can shoot with similar ISO, aperture, and shutter speed. Same results. I then tried the same experiment with Fuji XT-5, Nikon D850, Panasonic 4/3, and Ricoh GRIII. Same results. The only outlier was my M11-P. When I created the custom WB using the gray card, everything worked fine with my M11-P.

Upon reexamining raw files,
...Show more

The common complaint I noticed myself when testing the M11 right after its release is that it often overshot the tint consistently in AWB or any WB presets. Generally, I found that reducing the tint by -10 would produce better results, resulting in less magenta. I'm unsure if that aligns with what you were experiencing.



Apr 21, 2024 at 10:32 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · M11 White Balance


ksrhee2405 wrote:
Rusty,

Thanks for your post. Excellent suggestions. Initially, I thought there was a fault with the lens. So, I switch out with several other Leica and Voigtlander lenses to make sure. They all gave consistent results. I then put the camera on manual so that I can shoot with similar ISO, aperture, and shutter speed. Same results. I then tried the same experiment with Fuji XT-5, Nikon D850, Panasonic 4/3, and Ricoh GRIII. Same results. The only outlier was my M11-P. When I created the custom WB using the gray card, everything worked fine with my M11-P.

Upon reexamining raw files,
...Show more



Gotcha at Tint vs. Temp.



Apr 21, 2024 at 10:35 AM
ksrhee2405
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · M11 White Balance


Fred Miranda wrote:
The common complaint I noticed myself when testing the M11 right after its release is that it often overshot the tint consistently in AWB or any WB presets. Generally, I found that reducing the tint by -10 would produce better results, resulting in less magenta. I'm unsure if that aligns with what you were experiencing.


Thanks. In my case, it seems like +10 the other way. Perhaps it's the impact of the warm LED lights I was using? Regardless, it seems like the M11 is not quite accurate with its WB. Anyway, I appreciate everyone's help in the forum. In my previous cases, I didn't have to pay attention to WB unless it was egregiously incorrect since most of my other cameras do a decent job with AWB, but with the M11-P, I learned I have to pay more attention.



Apr 21, 2024 at 11:01 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · M11 White Balance


ksrhee2405 wrote:
Thanks. In my case, it seems like +10 the other way. Perhaps it's the impact of the warm LED lights I was using? Regardless, it seems like the M11 is not quite accurate with its WB. Anyway, I appreciate everyone's help in the forum. In my previous cases, I didn't have to pay attention to WB unless it was egregiously incorrect since most of my other cameras do a decent job with AWB, but with the M11-P, I learned I have to pay more attention.


I thought it might not be relevant in your situation because the issue with "magenta" overshoot occurs even when using custom gray card readings.



Apr 21, 2024 at 11:12 AM
ksrhee2405
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · M11 White Balance


Fred Miranda wrote:
I thought it might not be relevant in your situation because the issue with "magenta" overshoot occurs even when using custom gray card readings.


Now you mention it, I noticed the same thing when I used the custom gray card; it had a slight magenta overcast. I ignored it since it was improved from my previous shoot.



Apr 21, 2024 at 11:24 AM
1bwana1
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · M11 White Balance


Am I correct in assuming that everyone here has downloaded and are using the Leica M11 Profile when importing into LightRoom and not the Adobe profiles?


Apr 24, 2024 at 12:34 PM
Michael H
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · M11 White Balance


1bwana1 wrote:
here is an interesting video by Sean Tucker on a unique approach to white balance. I am giving it a try since anything can be corrected in post in case I don't like it.



This is a really well done video. Love the live examples as he describes the method and reasoning



Apr 24, 2024 at 12:36 PM
mard22
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · M11 White Balance


1bwana1 wrote:
Am I correct in assuming that everyone here has downloaded and are using the Leica M11 Profile when importing into LightRoom and not the Adobe profiles?


Can you link to this M11 profile you're speaking about?



Apr 24, 2024 at 11:35 PM
Paul.S
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · M11 White Balance


I like old mates theory, but I'd give it a go on your camera before using it.

It didn't turn out how I thought on my m11. AWB worked inside under led lights(maybe around 5000 k) better than anything else I tried, 46k to 6k and cloud and sunlight?? Go figure?

But, outside was different.

In general I find the tint leans towards magneta in the 20s, I find it too high and back it down from 0-10 depending on scene.
In winter time when we get pastel sky's I find it to be accurate.



Apr 25, 2024 at 07:17 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · M11 White Balance


mard22 wrote:
Can you link to this M11 profile you're speaking about?


I believe Steve is referring to the default LR profile for the M11, which is automatically available as a profile option when loading M11 DNG files. However, the magenta tint still persists, and I find the colors to be a bit off in my opinion.



Apr 25, 2024 at 11:21 AM
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