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SL3-S ... Something to watch for ???

  
 
RustyBug
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · SL3-S ... Something to watch for ???


Just wondering if there's any thoughts on an SL3-S coming down the road?

Or, does the "Triple Resolution" of the SL3 make a -S version dead with the SL2-S?



Apr 10, 2024 at 06:27 PM
freaklikeme
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · SL3-S ... Something to watch for ???


My guess is we'll see a FF CL-like camera with the SL2-S's sensor and AF first.


Apr 10, 2024 at 08:11 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · SL3-S ... Something to watch for ???


RustyBug wrote:
Just wondering if there's any thoughts on an SL3-S coming down the road?

Or, does the "Triple Resolution" of the SL3 make a -S version dead with the SL2-S?


Hoping the SL3-S will be a stacked sensor. I don't think Sony or anyone else is making 24mp sensors that would qualify as being better than the SL2-S's sensor otherwise.



Apr 10, 2024 at 10:17 PM
1bwana1
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · SL3-S ... Something to watch for ???


highdesertmesa wrote:
Hoping the SL3-S will be a stacked sensor. I don't think Sony or anyone else is making 24mp sensors that would qualify as being better than the SL2-S's sensor otherwise.


That would be a huge departure for Leica. They have never focused much on performance. Leica is more experience and IQ focused. I would be surprised to see a stacked sensor from leica any time soon. there are so many other paths to valuable improvements for Leica.



Apr 10, 2024 at 10:29 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · SL3-S ... Something to watch for ???


1bwana1 wrote:
That would be a huge departure for Leica. They have never focused much on performance. Leica is more experience and IQ focused. I would be surprised to see a stacked sensor from leica any time soon. there are so many other paths to valuable improvements for Leica.


Just the "performance" of eliminating rolling shutter would be big improvement from both the SL2-S and SL3. They don't have to make it a pro sports body for a stacked sensor to be valuable.



Apr 10, 2024 at 10:38 PM
1bwana1
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · SL3-S ... Something to watch for ???




highdesertmesa wrote:
Just the "performance" of eliminating rolling shutter would be big improvement from both the SL2-S and SL3. They don't have to make it a pro sports body for a stacked sensor to be valuable.


That is true. It could also improve the EVF and strobe experience a great deal.



Apr 10, 2024 at 10:51 PM
flash
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · SL3-S ... Something to watch for ???


highdesertmesa wrote:
Just the "performance" of eliminating rolling shutter would be big improvement from both the SL2-S and SL3. They don't have to make it a pro sports body for a stacked sensor to be valuable.


There are plenty of other brands and options if you don't like the Leica sensors. Personally, I much prefer IQ performance over sensor read speeds. If I need that performance, I pick up my A1. The SL3 is an A7R5 alternative not an A1 alternative. Leica have never chased speed over IQ. I don't get why people don't get that distinction.

Anyhooo. I've just spent today comparing my SL3 and X2D files with a 5 stop underexposure and push. Apart from the pixel count they're closer than they should be. But hey, let's dump the highest IQ 24x36 sensor there is so we can shoot distortion free 30fps shots of our yappy dogs. Performance can be measured in different ways and in the absolute IQ one, the SL3 wins.

Gordon



Apr 11, 2024 at 02:51 AM
highdesertmesa
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · SL3-S ... Something to watch for ???


flash wrote:
There are plenty of other brands and options if you don't like the Leica sensors. Personally, I much prefer IQ performance over sensor read speeds. If I need that performance, I pick up my A1. The SL3 is an A7R5 alternative not an A1 alternative. Leica have never chased speed over IQ. I don't get why people don't get that distinction.

Anyhooo. I've just spent today comparing my SL3 and X2D files with a 5 stop underexposure and push. Apart from the pixel count they're closer than they should be. But hey, let's dump the highest IQ 24x36 sensor there is
...Show more

SL3 images should look as good as your X2D given they share the same pixel density and base sensor tech minus the differences in sensor toppings, which exist mainly to accommodate their respective lens systems. If you adapt the same vintage lens to both systems, the X2D cropped to 35mm size should match the SL3 in many ways.

There definitely is a role for the SL3 or Sony wouldn’t be making the A7R5. But we were talking about what a potential SL3-S might offer. The SL3 is so good, the only thing the S version could offer this time around might be speed of the sensor. It would need to offer something besides a lower res sensor as that is also covered by the SL3’s smaller DNG options.



Apr 11, 2024 at 08:02 AM
tzhang4284
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · SL3-S ... Something to watch for ???


I bet they will just repackage the s5 ii and position it as a video oriented camera. Doesn’t seem like Leica or Panasonic are close to producijgna stacked sensor camera.


Apr 11, 2024 at 09:24 AM
stgrove
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · SL3-S ... Something to watch for ???


flash wrote:
Anyhooo. I've just spent today comparing my SL3 and X2D files with a 5 stop underexposure and push. Apart from the pixel count they're closer than they should be. But hey, let's dump the highest IQ 24x36 sensor there is so we can shoot distortion free 30fps shots of our yappy dogs. Performance can be measured in different ways and in the absolute IQ one, the SL3 wins.

Gordon


That is very interesting to know. I never dreamed the SL3 could compete with a 100MP sensor



Apr 11, 2024 at 07:03 PM
 


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flash
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · SL3-S ... Something to watch for ???


highdesertmesa wrote:
SL3 images should look as good as your X2D given they share the same pixel density and base sensor tech minus the differences in sensor toppings, which exist mainly to accommodate their respective lens systems. If you adapt the same vintage lens to both systems, the X2D cropped to 35mm size should match the SL3 in many ways.

There definitely is a role for the SL3 or Sony wouldn’t be making the A7R5. But we were talking about what a potential SL3-S might offer. The SL3 is so good, the only thing the S version could offer this time around might
...Show more

True and valid points.

The X2D is true 16 bit and the SL3 is 14 bit. I expected more of a difference at the pixel level. The SL3 shares its base silicon with the A7R5 and I can see plainly the SL3 has a small improvement on that camera in usable DR and noise. It's apparent Leica has thrown everything at IQ for the SL3 above all else.

The ultimate solution would be if Leica could negotiate on the 50MP Sony sensor from the A1. As far as I can tell the S5II sensor is still fairly slow, readout wise. Not really any better than using the triple res of the SL3. So they need access to a different sensor than the S5II. *Maybe* the A9II sensor now the III exists. I think even the A74 sensor is too slow.

So far there actually aren't that many sensors fast enough. Basically, just the stacked sensors (A1, Z8/9, R3 and A9II). Nikon and Canon aren't licencing sensor tech. So that leaves two current options. None of the normal BSI sensors really read that fast.

It seems to me, that some people (not referring to you. this is a general comment.) have just moved their SL bashing from autofocus to sensor readout speeds. It's so droll. And boring. The other high res BSI cameras don't get this. I don't see the Canon R5 copping flack for its slow readout speeds. Or the A7R5? The SL3 has many many issues. Not being fast enough isn't one of them.

The real question is, why?

I'm still trying to work out who actually *NEEDS* this tech on a normal day to day basis. Or should most photographers just get better rather than relying on basically shooting 8K video at 30fps and pulling frames? Is it really the read speed stopping them getting sharp photos of their screaming, pooping grandkids or fluffy yapping machine? I didn't seem to have any issues when my kids were small and I used an M8 or an XPan. I shot his rugby with much lesser cameras than the SL3. The SL3 would have been a joy. And yet the photos are all perfectly fine. Managed to pick the right moment without shooting ten thousand frames a game. I get the benefits. I like the tech. I use the tech (I have an A1). But if you shoot birds in flight once a year is it really essential? Maybe, just get better? Exactly how often is 5fps not enough? Or how often is the SL3 shutter too loud? Who actually needs a stacked sensor? Is Leica a brand you should consider if you do *need* a stacked sensor?

So, OK, you shoot birds in flight every day. Your progeny is doing sport at a super high level and you're into cameras. You are the candidate for the SL2-S. The L mount has exactly ONE prime over 150mm. And the 500mm 5.6 isn't super fast (it's absolutely awesome though. I have one and it's sensational). The 3.5 zooms that go over 300mm (Sigma and Leica share optics) aren't exactly fast either at f6.3. The 100-400's are a bit short and the 150-600 is OK but not great. You're basically buying the very good but slow and heavy 60-600 or the 500 and a TC. No 600/800mm prime or longer zoom options at all. So you all want a camera that has essentially few real lens options for and you're bumping a camera shooting in 12 bit (to achieve those speeds) to a really high ISO to freeze the action/wings. Wouldn't you all just buy a Z8 or A1, where several (many even) options are available from brands actively chasing the speed market as well as all the options available for the SL3S (the Sigmas)?

What functional use does this SL3S camera have? Resolution and storage are no longer issues. There's no benefit DR wise to lower MP sensors. If your shooting street at 30 fps I'll argue you're not doing street at all. You're shooting video. Portraits? Good luck getting strobes to keep up. Silent shooting? Fine. But how often is a subject moving fast that needs a silent shutter? Brides don't sprint down the aisle. Maybe that sleeping baby is epileptic? Streets are noisy. No one hears your shutter. Shutter shock? Of course! Shutter shock! Because when you're chasing a kid around the back yard holding the camera out in front of you at ground level, shutter shock will be the IQ issue.... My testing so far shows basically no shutter shock issues with the SL3 and if it does come up at certain speeds, I can just avoid those when using a tripod which is the only place shutter shock really matters. So, no. Not shutter shock.

Really, the only useful thing is video, for many people. Most punters would be better off with an Osmo Action 3 or their phone. The serious ones will have already bought an S5IIX. Same glass. Better functionality. fraction of the price. Heaps of dedicated accessories from third parties that work with the S5 cameras (of fab S1X) already. It has a fan in it, so it won't shut down every three minutes. Or a Blackmagic, who are part of the L mount alliance. Again. Same glass. Better functionality than even the Panasonics. So even if you're dedicated to L mount only. There are cheaper and better options available. If not get the Z8.

So, while I freely admit I'd certainly buy an SL3S that has the A1 sensor in it (but not a 24MP version), I also have to acknowledge that it'd be a daft decision because the A1/Z8 is still a better choice for anything that moves because of the lens options available. An S5IIX or Blackmagic is better for video (Osmo Action in my case). I get the emotional aspect of it. I just don't see a logical reason for it. I suppose my only justification would be I could have it as a backup to my SL3's and for the twice a year I want to point it at a BiF. I could share batteries and I don't have the use case for a 600/4.

Yes, if we got the A1 sensor, it'd kind of be an all in one. But who seriously just has one body if they're serious about the craft? To get those speed performance gains you have to accept IQ performance losses. 12 bit capture and less resolution are noticeable. I see it clearly from the A1 to A7R5 and the SL3 is better again. So it doesn't *replace* the SL3. Basically, it's a box of compromise, like any camera. And you'd likely have more than one. Why not just get a dedicated imaging machine and one for sports? Shoot Leica for everything and have the Z8 with just a 600/4TC on the side? Is it really likely that this camera would have the AF performance of an A9III or even A1??.

I just don't see why any sensible person would want one, apart from it being what the internet says you should have (or if you REALLY shoot sports or wildlife as a passion project). I'm not sensible so I probably would. But I'm assured that most people are.

Mind you if Leica think they can sell enough of them then why not.... Just get ready for the whining when it doesn't have a fan built in and the 8K overheats. That is the Leica way, after all.

Gordon



Apr 11, 2024 at 07:42 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · SL3-S ... Something to watch for ???


flash wrote:
True and valid points.

The X2D is true 16 bit and the SL3 is 14 bit. I expected more of a difference at the pixel level. The SL3 shares its base silicon with the A7R5 and I can see plainly the SL3 has a small improvement on that camera in usable DR and noise. It's apparent Leica has thrown everything at IQ for the SL3 above all else.

The ultimate solution would be if Leica could negotiate on the 50MP Sony sensor from the A1. As far as I can tell the S5II sensor is still fairly slow, readout wise. Not really
...Show more

Good points. Leica probably won't use a stacked sensor until that technology has fully replaced non-stacked and the price has come down. The SL3-S has to maintain a lower price point, so it's more likely as has been mentioned that it will get the S5II sensor minus the AA filter plus a few bonus video features.

I hear that the latest firmware for the S5II/X has really improved the AF to the point where it is closer now to Sony/Canon/Nikon than it was before. That bodes well for trickle-down to the SL3 and future SL3-S.



Apr 11, 2024 at 07:57 PM
flash
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · SL3-S ... Something to watch for ???


stgrove wrote:
That is very interesting to know. I never dreamed the SL3 could compete with a 100MP sensor


Low res versions here.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1853816

same exposure (equalised for true base ISO) and a 4+ stop pull in exposure and push in post. I'll do more over the next few weeks but from a month of shooting side by side it's basically just extra pixels.

Mind you the X2D with an XCD-V lens is lighter and outperforms the SL3 with an equivalent APO Summicron SL, resolution wise. The SL3 combo can be a bit better in the corners wide open with the XCD-V 38 and 55 lenses but not in 80% of the frame and the corners quickly out resolve the SL glass stopped down a bit. But it's very close noise wise at a pixel level and in recovery. If you don't need the 100MP then the SL3 is a viable option IQ wise. Mose so because you have so much more lens flexibility and the camera is significantly faster.

I have the GFX100II and 100S for the zooms. I'm almost certainly retiring that system and replacing it with the SL3 as there's just more lens options. Keeping the X2D (still my favourite camera) with a set of select primes And M11M because it's unique plus the A1 for the once or twice a year I'd want that kind of speed.

And a photo because this thread needs more photos.

Gordon






  LEICA SL3    APO-SUMMICRON-SL 1:2/90 ASPH. lens    90mm    f/5.0    1/160s    6400 ISO    -2.0 EV  




Apr 11, 2024 at 08:05 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · SL3-S ... Something to watch for ???


Hey Gordon ... quite the depth of perspective. I appreciate the amount of info, time & thought involved to contribute that to the discussion.

Since I posted the question, I guess I'm asking a "Devil's Advocate" question of is there a use case scenario where an SL3-S would be a rational preference over the SL3 and Triple Resolution ... particularly thinking about the use case of low-light work vs. say the options of an SL3, X2D, SL3-S options.

Or, does the SL3 represent a truly "swiss army knife" of options for high-res, low light, M lenses, AF ... with PDAF and tilt EVF. What could (not thinking, nor expecting sports / bif superiority) an SLS-3 bring to the table that would make it a viable use case vs. the SL3 (IQ superiority) ? Reduced price potential, notwithstanding.

Although, the SL does bring what I'd call "occassional long glass" into the realm, but as you mention, if dedicated long glass is your thing ... there are better tools in other brands, 16 / 14 / 12 bit variance understood as the sliding scale of IQ vs. speed is quid pro quo.

An SL2-S could serve seemingly fit for a purpose, but the advent of an SL3-S with additional PDAF and tilt EVF might seem nice. Or, does the SL3 already cover the SL2-S and the prospect of an SL3-S is of dubious likelihood, because of how versatile the SL3 inherently is?



Apr 11, 2024 at 09:32 PM
stgrove
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · SL3-S ... Something to watch for ???


SL3+100-400@400 with about a 75% crop. That's good enough for me since I basically do not pixel peep.







Apr 11, 2024 at 09:54 PM
flash
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · SL3-S ... Something to watch for ???


stgrove wrote:
SL3+100-400@400 with about a 75% crop. That's good enough for me since I basically do not pixel peep.


Damn. That's sharp. How are you liking the SL3?

Gordon



Apr 11, 2024 at 11:11 PM
flash
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · SL3-S ... Something to watch for ???


RustyBug wrote:
Hey Gordon ... quite the depth of perspective. I appreciate the amount of info, time & thought involved to contribute that to the discussion.

Since I posted the question, I guess I'm asking a "Devil's Advocate" question of is there a use case scenario where an SL3-S would be a rational preference over the SL3 and Triple Resolution ... particularly thinking about the use case of low-light work vs. say the options of an SL3, X2D, SL3-S options.

Or, does the SL3 represent a truly "swiss army knife" of options for high-res, low light, M lenses, AF ... with PDAF
...Show more

Purely personal opinion bent to my own bias...

If it was substantially smaller and lighter. But that camera could have the 60MP sensor like the A7CR. So, I suppose based on the criteria you listed, no.

With the SL2 and SL2S there were some benefits by having a lower res sensor. File sizes were smaller. Less noise per pixel. Slightly faster shooting speeds. More DR. Better file recovery. They evaporated with the SL3. I'm currently trying to induce shutter shock on the SL3 with the 150-600 and 500 Sigmas, with and without TC's. So far, I'm struggling to see any issues at 700mm. So, the shutter shock thing is a non-event. I'm not personally in a place where I need both a silent shutter and high speed readout. More than 5fps is maybe once or twice a year.

My current thinking is to make a camera like an SL3S viable it'd need to be above the SL3 in the line up. The 50MP A1 sensor with dual processors and no mechanical shutter would do it. *Maybe* the A9II sensor but I think without 8K it's DOA. People will just by the 1/10th of the price S5II. But if you can get that sensor and that performance for video then some people WILL come over just for the user experience and the Leica cine lenses. People buy the SL mostly because they really don't get a buzz using a Sony, Nikon or Canon. So, if you can make a camera like the A1 that's not got shit menus and a lousy joystick you'll get some takers. I'll get one because I have FOMO.

Then all it takes id for Sigma to drop a couple of extra super teles and we're off to the races.

The A9II's, A1's and Z8's of this world get all the press but I really think most people would be better off with an A7R5 or Z7II. In Leica land that's the SL3. It needs some serious firmware work but I think it will be close to the perfect 24x36mm system for me and most others who want to shoot Leica. I think the SL3 is a cross between the SL2 and SL2S. A SL3S will need to be something completely new for Leica.

I'm not selling my X2D's though.

Gordon



Apr 11, 2024 at 11:51 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · SL3-S ... Something to watch for ???


highdesertmesa wrote:
SL3 images should look as good as your X2D given they share the same pixel density and base sensor tech minus the differences in sensor toppings, which exist mainly to accommodate their respective lens systems. If you adapt the same vintage lens to both systems, the X2D cropped to 35mm size should match the SL3 in many ways.

There definitely is a role for the SL3 or Sony wouldn’t be making the A7R5. But we were talking about what a potential SL3-S might offer. The SL3 is so good, the only thing the S version could offer this time around might
...Show more

I agree. The SL3-S would only make sense if it's equipped with a stacked sensor. This could differentiate it from the SL3, which focuses on achieving high image quality.
I don't believe Leica would choose a 24MP option, so would the alternative likely be the 50MP stacked sensor?



Apr 11, 2024 at 11:58 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · SL3-S ... Something to watch for ???




Fred Miranda wrote:
I agree. The SL3-S would only make sense if it's equipped with a stacked sensor. This could differentiate it from the SL3, which focuses on achieving high image quality.
I don't believe Leica would choose a 24MP option, so would the alternative likely be the 50MP stacked sensor?


I guess so, but then I think they should rename it SL3-[?] since it would sit above the SL3 like the A1 sits above the A7R5. The camera above the SL3 will more likely be the redesigned-as-mirrorless S4 medium format. I guess my gut instinct is the SL2-S will sit alongside the M10-R as one hit wonders.



Apr 12, 2024 at 12:38 AM
stgrove
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · SL3-S ... Something to watch for ???


flash wrote:
Damn. That's sharp. How are you liking the SL3?

Gordon


Better believe it. Once they upgrade FW to include multi-shot I will sell my SL2S Reporter.

BTW, I did not sharpen it. Also it was hand held @400mm. SS was high as that's how I shoot any lens, but here could have been 1/1000 or 1/2000.

Edited on Apr 12, 2024 at 12:58 PM · View previous versions



Apr 12, 2024 at 08:34 AM
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