Home · Register · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

       2       end
  

Leica Monochrome decision, need advice

  
 
ATPphoto
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Leica Monochrome decision, need advice


Iím new to Leica, just got a Q3 and really like it, and I want to get a monochrome camera now.
I shoot a lot of street and documentary stuff.
I was about to get a used Q2m, but for the same price I can get a 246 Monochrom with a Zeiss 25/2.8.
Iíve heard great things about both cameras and lenses but Iím hoping some of you can advise on the pros/cons of each.
Megapixels and AF not important. I like that the Q2 and Q3 would share batteries and chargers, less to carry. But hopefully you might know some more important details of each camera.
Thanks in advance.



Apr 03, 2024 at 11:50 PM
johnvanr
Online
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Leica Monochrome decision, need advice


Theyíre very different cameras. The M with its rangefinder and manual focus will give you a shooting experience that canít really be compared directly to the AF mirrorless Q experience. You may hate it or like it, but you should probably try it before you commit to it.

That said, if the price is good, you could just get it and try it. Leica used prices stay fairly stable for a while, so you could resell it and still get the Q.



Apr 04, 2024 at 12:03 AM
ATPphoto
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Leica Monochrome decision, need advice


Thanks, John. I use zone focusing with the Q3 about half the time, so the rf experience shouldnít be too different. Good point about re-sale if I donít like the M.

Is there anything to be said for the two sensors and how they each render black and white? Or is it a very fine, imperceptible difference?



Apr 04, 2024 at 07:03 AM
retrofocus
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Leica Monochrome decision, need advice


Some questions you should ask yourself about personal preferences with each camera system:

+ Are you okay to use 28 mm FL as standard lens or do you prefer to change lenses often?
+ Preference for EVF or rangefinder based focusing/composing?
+ More electronic bells and whistles or standard menus without wireless etc?
+ Is high ISO and high resolution a must or is 24 MP with ISO < 12 000 okay to use?

In case your answers fall more into the first bracket, you might better off with the monochrome Q-system. If you are leaning more towards the second option of each question, the MM 246 might be the better choice.

I am using the MM 246 since almost a year and have no regrets. It is a very powerful monochrome camera and only falling behind newer Leica monochrome systems in the very high ISO range and for higher resolution which I don't really need when using my M system. MM 246 cameras in very good condition go for about $3K these days. Compared to other monochrome camera offerings from Leica, this is the best price/quality ratio to get.




Apr 04, 2024 at 08:04 AM
retrofocus
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Leica Monochrome decision, need advice


Some examples of Photos I have taken with the MM 246:


CV 21/1.8 lens



CV 28/2.0 Version I lens



CV 21/1.8 lens



CV 75/1.5 lens with R72 filter



CV 75/1.5 lens



Apr 04, 2024 at 08:14 AM
ATPphoto
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Leica Monochrome decision, need advice


retrofocus wrote:
Some questions you should ask yourself about personal preferences with each camera system:

+ Are you okay to use 28 mm FL as standard lens or do you prefer to change lenses often?
+ Preference for EVF or rangefinder based focusing/composing?
+ More electronic bells and whistles or standard menus without wireless etc?
+ Is high ISO and high resolution a must or is 24 MP with ISO < 12 000 okay to use?

In case your answers fall more into the first bracket, you might better off with the monochrome Q-system. If you are leaning more towards the second option of each question, the
...Show more

Thanks, rf, and lovely images.
- I've been using a Ricoh GR III system for the past three years and I love the 28mm field of view. So it was an easy decision to get the Q3.
- I would probably use zone focusing most of the time with the M, as it would see mostly street action.
- Don't really need all the features of the Q3, but I do enjoy the image quality and ease of use once I set it up the way I like.
- I've printed large and even produced good-quality photo books using the Ricoh's APS-C 24 MP sensor, so resolution is fine for me. And I don't even mind noise that much, I often add grain in a third-party software.

I appreciate your remarks on your personal experiences. A good friend has remarked in the past that he loves his 246 and would never part with it.



Apr 04, 2024 at 08:29 AM
theHUN
Online
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Leica Monochrome decision, need advice


I had all sorts of reservations about the Q2M, but it performed splendidly on a trip in harsh terrain. Link to thread.


Apr 04, 2024 at 08:59 AM
retrofocus
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Leica Monochrome decision, need advice


ATPphoto wrote:
Thanks, rf, and lovely images.
- I've been using a Ricoh GR III system for the past three years and I love the 28mm field of view. So it was an easy decision to get the Q3.
- I would probably use zone focusing most of the time with the M, as it would see mostly street action.
- Don't really need all the features of the Q3, but I do enjoy the image quality and ease of use once I set it up the way I like.
- I've printed large and even produced good-quality photo books using the Ricoh's APS-C 24 MP
...Show more

Makes sense - to me it is all about the option to change lenses. I would never opt for a fixed lens digital camera which remains the main reason why I excluded the Q-series for myself upfront. If a Q with exchangeable lens mount ever is offered, this would be a game changer for me since I would love to use rangefinder and in-camera EVF cameras in parallel.



Apr 04, 2024 at 09:23 AM
johnvanr
Online
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Leica Monochrome decision, need advice


ATPphoto wrote:
Thanks, John. I use zone focusing with the Q3 about half the time, so the rf experience shouldnít be too different. Good point about re-sale if I donít like the M.

Is there anything to be said for the two sensors and how they each render black and white? Or is it a very fine, imperceptible difference?


I never owned the 246, so I canít address how the sensor renders B&W.



Apr 04, 2024 at 09:27 AM
airfrogusmc
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Leica Monochrome decision, need advice


I own 2 M 10s and an M 10 Mono. I had the origianl M 9 Mono for 9 years. Only sold it to get the M 10 Mono.

I am a full time pro and am now semi retired. When I fully retire I will sell my 2 M 10s and most of my glass but will be keeping my M 10 Mono and my 24 2.8 Elmarit and my 35 Lux FLE. I do 90% of my persoaml work with my Monochrom. So when I no longer have to have color for clients I will sell the color bodies.

If you are a B&W photographer a mono only camera makes perfect sense.

Also concerning a rangefinder is you are not seeing through the lens so you it is a much different experience when shooting. One that really fits the way I see and work but it's not everyone. It's a personal decision and one only you the OP can make.

I say if you can swing it financially, try it out. If it's not for you and you've bought the 246, I doubt you will loose much money on it if you decide it didn't work out.



Apr 04, 2024 at 09:45 AM
 


Search in Used Dept. 

flash
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Leica Monochrome decision, need advice


Reading the above the Q2M seems like an easy win.

* You know you like the 28mm focal length.
* Your familiar with the quirks of the Q.
* The cameras will share batteries etc.
* The Q2M sensor is better. Like outrageously good.
* You won't have to worry about adding a lens.
* While some of the buttons have moved and there's a flip screen on the Q3, the basics are identical like switching focus and the shutter position and aperture feel. Switching between them just works better.

I have the M10M, M11M and Q2M and I've had the 246. As much as I like the M system I'd probably keep the Q2M if pushed. And I'm not actually a 28mm shooter either. K carries her Q3 and Q2M all over the world as a double act.

Gordon

p.s. what I really want is a 50mm Q3 or a SL3M.

Gordon

Gordon



Apr 04, 2024 at 08:27 PM
ATPphoto
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Leica Monochrome decision, need advice


airfrogusmc wrote:
I own 2 M 10s and an M 10 Mono. I had the origianl M 9 Mono for 9 years. Only sold it to get the M 10 Mono.

I am a full time pro and am now semi retired. When I fully retire I will sell my 2 M 10s and most of my glass but will be keeping my M 10 Mono and my 24 2.8 Elmarit and my 35 Lux FLE. I do 90% of my persoaml work with my Monochrom. So when I no longer have to have color for clients I will sell the color
...Show more

I've never gotten along with rangefinders before, but a digital RF may convince me otherwise. I'm willing to try. I also like that there are lens options with the M.



Apr 04, 2024 at 09:05 PM
ATPphoto
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Leica Monochrome decision, need advice


flash wrote:
Reading the above the Q2M seems like an easy win.

* You know you like the 28mm focal length.
* Your familiar with the quirks of the Q.
* The cameras will share batteries etc.
* The Q2M sensor is better. Like outrageously good.
* You won't have to worry about adding a lens.
* While some of the buttons have moved and there's a flip screen on the Q3, the basics are identical like switching focus and the shutter position and aperture feel. Switching between them just works better.

I have the M10M, M11M and Q2M and I've had the 246. As much as I like
...Show more

Thanks, Gordon.
I'm sure there'll be a Q2 in my future, but for now, I decided to give the M a shot. It's appealing for its relative simplicity and that I can try out a few different focal lengths. The Q3 should stay my main working camera, but B&W is too appealing. By the time I sold my Ricoh cameras, I was using the (converted) monochrome body as much as the color body for work.



Apr 04, 2024 at 09:08 PM
lefteye
Offline

Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Leica Monochrome decision, need advice


Do you wear eyeglasses? 28mm viewed through the M rangefinder may or may not be slightly cropped depending on your eye(wear) and the exact magnification ratio of the particular rangefinder. For me, wearing glasses resulted in not being able to see the entirety of the 28mm field, making for an unsatisfying experience.


May 11, 2024 at 04:37 AM
wolfloid
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Leica Monochrome decision, need advice


I use the little Ricoh GR III, and while it is nice, it does not even remotely compare to the M 246 files. They are more malleable, richer, and 12,000 ISO is very useable - 25,000 in a pinch. This allows for faster shutter speeds when it gets dim.

I have not yet used the Q2M, bit have my eye on it and have studied hundreds of files. It has a more advanced sensor than the M246, and while the resolution difference is minimal at anything under 12,000 (unless you print very large) it is much better over that (1.5 stops better). The problem is not really noise, as that can be handled, or even enjoyed, the problem is banding. There can be banding in the M246 shadows if you lift them too much (4 or more stops) and sometimes at 12,000 and certainly above. The Q2M is also 1.5 stops ahead here.



May 11, 2024 at 05:15 AM
wolfloid
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Leica Monochrome decision, need advice


Having said all that. There is nothing like shooting an M246 (or above) with a Summilux 35mm f1.4. That lens just sings at 1.4, it really has a stunning look in dull places or at night, and of course, that allows you to lower your ISO.

The Q2M can only give you 35/2.2, which is not to be compared.



May 11, 2024 at 05:21 AM
ATPphoto
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Leica Monochrome decision, need advice


lefteye wrote:
Do you wear eyeglasses? 28mm viewed through the M rangefinder may or may not be slightly cropped depending on your eye(wear) and the exact magnification ratio of the particular rangefinder. For me, wearing glasses resulted in not being able to see the entirety of the 28mm field, making for an unsatisfying experience.


Yes, I do and you're right, composing through the RF is not exactly wonderful. Focusing is a breeze and very precise.
I use the VF-2 occasionally, and once in a while I'll use live view to help with composition.

I have some wide lenses: 15, 21 and 24, so these two methods certainly make a difference.



May 11, 2024 at 09:44 AM
ATPphoto
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Leica Monochrome decision, need advice


In between last time I wrote and today, I've been on a bit of a tear.

The Q3 is gone. I think it's the closest any camera has ever come to perfection, for me. But after 2-3 years of shooting mostly fixed-lens GR cameras, I guess I got tired of that style of camera. I'll probably come back to it when my eyes ask me to.

Meantime, I have the M246 and M240 and a slew of lenses, and it's been extremely enjoyable. I'm now thinking of upgrading the M246 to a more recent Monochrom camera.

Thanks for everyone's help and replies.



May 11, 2024 at 09:49 AM
RexGig0
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Leica Monochrome decision, need advice


The Monochrom 246 actually holds up, quite well, at high ISO, against its successor, the M10 Monochrom, up to a point. An article at Red Dot Forum dot com, with comparison images and narrative by David Farkas, shows this quite well. I have been in no particular hurry to ďupgradeĒ to an M10 Monochrom, largely for that reason. The smaller-capacity of the M10ís battery also entered into the equation. (I actually started the Leica M system with an M10, then added the Monochrom 246.) Rather than acquire a new M10 Monochrom, in 2021 or 2022, I opted to add several M lenses, including ďfasterĒ M lenses, in 2022 and 2023.

To be clear, I am not ďagainstĒ the M10 Monochrom or M11 Monochrom. As the asking prices for pre-owned M10 Monochrom cameras gradually decrease, I am paying attention.

Edited to add: Here is the article that I mentioned:

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2020/05/bw-iso-showdown-2020-leica-m10-monochrom-vs-m-monochrom-typ-246-vs-m10-p-vs-sl2/



May 12, 2024 at 08:53 AM
ATPphoto
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Leica Monochrome decision, need advice


Thanks. I've seen that article, so I decided to skip the M10M. There's a YT video comparing several performance metrics of the M246 and M10M, and the M246 definitely holds it own.
I've been more than pleased with my M246. I do wish it had a lower base ISO, though.
But the M11M is in my near future, for a few reasons:
- an upcoming project has me needing more megapixels, a very straightforward, non-negotiable reason. I'm no fan of more MPs, but sometimes this can't be avoided.
- better low-light performance, hopefully less banding in shadows
- I don't have to remove the bottom plate to access battery and SD card
- I like the way the controls are laid out on the M11/M, and the UI is similar to the Q3, which I loved using.
- just a hunch, but I think the M12, or whatever it will be called, will be quite different than what we're used to seeing from Leica. The M11/M11M, therefore, might be the last of the classic RF cameras.
- I expect the M11M to last me for a decade, if not more.



May 12, 2024 at 09:38 AM
       2       end






FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

       2       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username       Or Reset password



This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.