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Leica Triple Resolution marketing vs reality. Another look.

  
 
zhangyue
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Leica Triple Resolution marketing vs reality. Another look.


The fact is if you view your image 100%, you will see less noise on small raw. Because Leica is doing the binning on raw level, so signal is 60/18, and noise is sqrt(60/18), you get better signal to noise ratio at small raw AT PIXEL LEVEL. Leica is doing the oversampling for you without take extra disk space. You can do it yourself if you prefer with raw converter.

I don't fully agree with narrative here that Leica is simply misleading here. It is all about your angle to view things. I personally enjoy this 18M clean raw file than a 60M down sampled same 18M image if I don't need 60M file.

That is it. very simple. So, this is one of selling features for me and I wish Fuji GFX, Hasselblad or future Leica S all implement this to avoid monster file for snap shots.



Apr 04, 2024 at 01:53 AM
RustyBug
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Leica Triple Resolution marketing vs reality. Another look.


zhangyue wrote:
The fact is if you view your image 100%, you will see less noise on small raw. Because Leica is doing the binning on raw level, so signal is 60/18, and noise is sqrt(60/18), you get better signal to noise ratio at small raw AT PIXEL LEVEL. Leica is doing the oversampling for you without take extra disk space. You can do it yourself if you prefer with raw converter.

I don't fully agree with narrative here that Leica is simply misleading here. It is all about your angle to view things. I personally enjoy this 18M clean raw file
...Show more

+1 I don't find it misleading either.

So, they made a factual statement regarding the existence of a benefit from their included feature ... imo, that's no blood, no foul territory. Just keep playin' ...

It might seem "unnecessary" (for them to mention it) to the technically savvy, and then the technically savvy extract their own assumptions behind Leica's intent. But, that's not much different than saying that Phase Detection AF gives you the benefit of faster AF performance ... ANY YET, there are faster performing AF cameras out there. Stating the relationship between the feature and the benefit has been around from all manufacturers / sales of all kinds, for a very, very long time.

Best I can tell, the relationship was presented between the feature / benefit ... not, the relationship of its performance vs. all other possible means. I think folks that are perturbed by this, are leaning into the latter uber-hard, when it is a matter of the former.

Imo, it's just a staple part of marketing presentation to provide the potential consumer with the feature / benefit relationship. I think folks are trying to make this into something it isn't ... i.e. somehow, misleading. That said ... ummmm, it didn't mislead me. I just took it as a basic, fundamental presentation of feature / benefit relationship. Pretty standard stuff, imo. Others seemingly dissent.

Pretty sure there's other, bigger, more worthwhile fish to fry than the point that a manufacturer presented a feature / benefit relationship to the consumer.

Can we produce "even better" results in post vs. in camera ... yeah.

Play on.

YMMV




Apr 04, 2024 at 06:37 AM
stgrove
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Leica Triple Resolution marketing vs reality. Another look.


OP
The first graph is a Leica graph since the logo is in the top left corner which the Math guy must have copied for his info. Originally marketing info said the M-and S-DNGs had better DR, but many testers (Leica Miami included) have determined that is not true. Now they do not say that just that the SL3 has 15 stops of DR and no longer detail which size gives the 15 stops.

The Leica Store in Zurich somehow gets LOTS of pre production gear to loan out to their "favorite" customers. I happen to have been there on the introduction day of the Q3. I was talking with one person who told me he was going to get one since he had used one for around a month before the introduction and liked the Q3 features especially the flip out LCD. He also said he would not be using anything other than L-DNG.



Apr 04, 2024 at 07:37 AM
LBJ2
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Leica Triple Resolution marketing vs reality. Another look.


stgrove wrote:
OP
The first graph is a Leica graph since the logo is in the top left corner which the Math guy must have copied for his info. Originally marketing info said the M-and S-DNGs had better DR, but many testers (Leica Miami included) have determined that is not true. Now they do not say that just that the SL3 has 15 stops of DR and no longer detail which size gives the 15 stops.

The Leica Store in Zurich somehow gets LOTS of pre production gear to loan out to their "favorite" customers. I happen to have been there on the introduction
...Show more

In the TLDR or (too long didn't listen) video, I think he does describe the first slide posted in this thread with the Leica logo as the Leica data. The second slide with the PixInsight logo is of course the results of his method of testing. https://pixinsight.com

*I've never touched the Q3 or seen/edited any Q3 files.

But I do work with in-camera pixel binned L/M/S-DNG M11 files. I don't think many will notice 7.1% DR advantage in the smaller in-camera pixel binned DNG/RAW files. I certainly haven't to date and why his math and results is compelling...to me. I do however think most of us see more detail in the 60MP aka more data, more details. He confirms the same about the L-DNG 60MP files too.

IMO, Mathphotographer has used a very unique and interesting approach to include comparison images and data to confirm his findings. I think it would be interesting if he was able to do the same with the M11 and SL3 files.

FWIW, and it's been awhile, when the M11 was first launched, I think the M11 Product Director said something along the lines of Triple Resolution is not magic and can also be carried out in post in something like LR. Since, I've learned Triple Resolution results true DNG/RAW files via in-camera pixel binning unlike other brands that use some sort of in-camera compression to create smaller but something other than RAW files as output.

Edited on Apr 04, 2024 at 08:15 AM · View previous versions



Apr 04, 2024 at 08:03 AM
stgrove
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Leica Triple Resolution marketing vs reality. Another look.


Fred Miranda wrote:
Many M11 'reviews' merely parrot Leica's marketing without providing meaningful insights. Photographers unfamiliar with these technical aspects often end up accepting the narrative. Perhaps Leica has realized they can get away with it.


I questioned Nick Rains (Leica Australia person) on his DR comment about his SL3 youtube vid. He replied back that he was using Leica material for his basis. He is good in his setup videos, but that was MOST disappointing to hear. Then again march to the drum right off the end of the earth. Oh, sorry it's no longer flat.

On my SL3 I'd rather have multi-shot mode than triple resolution selections since I am paying for 60MP and that's what I will use and do everything else in post.



Apr 04, 2024 at 08:13 AM
highdesertmesa
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Leica Triple Resolution marketing vs reality. Another look.


Just because most of us were not misled by the DR marketing claim doesnít mean itís not a misleading marketing tactic.

Like I already pointed out, if Adobe took this logic and said that Lightroom increases your image DR by 4 stops when exporting for Instagram size, they would be laughed out of the room.

The M and S-DNG are smaller files, which is the only benefit of the feature, IMO.



Apr 04, 2024 at 11:19 AM
snapsy
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Leica Triple Resolution marketing vs reality. Another look.


I tried to watch as much of the video as I could and it seems he's only comparing the different in-camera binned sizes to each other rather than comparing those to the full sized raw processed to equivalent resolutions in post. Is that correct? If so, it's not clear to me how the video demonstrates Leica in-camera raw sizes yields any actual utility other than saving a single post-processing resize step, which itself can be done automatically so I'm not sure it demonstrates even that utility.


Apr 06, 2024 at 11:00 AM
LBJ2
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Leica Triple Resolution marketing vs reality. Another look.


LBJ2 wrote:
Since Leica first introduced Triple Resolution (in-camera pixel binning) in the base M11 rangefinder camera, Leica announced a slight DR and Noise advantage to the smaller in-camera pixel binned files, M-DNG and S-DNG.

Til now, I don't think I've ever seen anyone able to confirm this Leica marketing claim L-DNG vs M-DNG, VS S-DNG :

As usual MathPhotographer, applies some math to the claim in his Q3 video, "Leica Q3 ISO-Invariance, Dynamic Range, High ISO & OIS" *Seems M-DNG is the best DR/Noise performance ratio.

https://youtu.be/YH3LT4229ug?si=Hfy2qjr_LUOwBiin



@snapsy

If you would be so kind and seeing that you've experimented with pixel binning for one of your 2021 projects, I thought it might be interesting to hear your thoughts and experience on the topic of this thread: "Leica Triple Resolution (in camera pixel binning) marketing vs reality"

Slide #1 Leica's Claim; in-camera pixel binning noise & DR advantage

Slide #2 YouTuber, "Mathphotographers" results using the Pixsight platform and Python with what appears to confirm Leica's claim of in-camera pixel binning advantage at least with the (w/ Sony 60 MP BSI FF sensor in the Q3)













Video here: https://youtu.be/YH3LT4229ug?si=Hfy2qjr_LUOwBiin



Apr 06, 2024 at 11:00 AM
snapsy
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Leica Triple Resolution marketing vs reality. Another look.


LBJ2 wrote:
@snapsy@

If you would be so kind and seeing that you've experimented with pixel binning for one of your 2021 projects, I thought it might be interesting to hear your thoughts and experience on the topic of this thread: "Leica Triple Resolution (in camera pixel binning) marketing vs reality"

Slide #1 Leica's Claim; in-camera pixel binning noise & DR advantage

Slide #2 YouTuber, "Mathphotographers" results using the Pixsight platform and Python with what appears to confirm Leica's claim of in-camera pixel binning advantage at least with the (w/ Sony 60 MP BSI FF sensor in the Q3)

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/ufiles/87/2713987.jpg

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/ufiles/88/2713988.jpg

Video here: https://youtu.be/YH3LT4229ug?si=Hfy2qjr_LUOwBiin


Just posted above. He appears to be only comparing the noise performance between the various in-camera raw sizes rather than comparing their noise performance to a full-sized raw that's resized in post. So it's not clear to me how this in-camera feature is actually useful in terms of noise performance since the resize step can be done automatically as part of the export in post. There's a standard formula for the noise reduction achieved from any resizing (in decibels):

20*log10(sqrt(original_size/smaller_size))



Apr 06, 2024 at 11:05 AM
LBJ2
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Leica Triple Resolution marketing vs reality. Another look.


snapsy wrote:
Just posted above. He appears to be only comparing the noise performance between the various in-camera raw sizes rather than comparing their noise performance to a full-sized raw that's resized in post. So it's not clear to me how this in-camera feature is actually useful in terms of noise performance since the resize step can be done automatically as part of the export in post. There's a standard formula for the noise reduction achieved from any resizing (in decibels):

20*log10(sqrt(original_size/smaller_size))


Thank you, from your experience with pixel binning, and in this case specifically in-camera binning, do you think there is a possibility that Leica's in-camera pixel binning process, using the entire FF BSI sensor to pixel bin, has the potential to result as they claim in some DR, and noise advantage in smaller pixel binned files compared to the full 60MP non pixel binned DNG file?

Good to know ! " 20*log10(sqrt(original_size/smaller_size)) "



Apr 06, 2024 at 11:23 AM
 


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snapsy
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Leica Triple Resolution marketing vs reality. Another look.


LBJ2 wrote:
Thank you, from your experience with pixel binning, and in this case specifically in-camera binning, do you think there is a possibility that Leica's in-camera pixel binning process, using the entire FF BSI sensor to pixel bin, has the potential to result as they claim in some DR, and noise advantage in smaller pixel binned files compared to the full 60MP non pixel binned DNG file?

Good to know ! " 20*log10(sqrt(original_size/smaller_size)) "


The only way to get greater noise reduction from downsizing in-camera algorithm vs post-processing is if it's done at the pixel level in the sensor, ie multiple pixels read are binned together in one readout, which would result in only one read noise incurred for the binned pixels vs separate read noise incurred for each individual pixel. There are very few commercial sensors on the market that do this - it's not even done in smartphones the last time I checked a few years ago.

FYI, I implemented a raw-based pixel-binning module in my OctaveRawTools GitHub Project a few years ago. Here's my post about it on Dpreview:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65065832



Apr 06, 2024 at 11:29 AM
LBJ2
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Leica Triple Resolution marketing vs reality. Another look.


snapsy wrote:
The only way to get greater noise reduction from downsizing in-camera algorithm vs post-processing is if it's done at the pixel level in the sensor, ie multiple pixels read are binned together in one readout, which would result in only one read noise incurred for the binned pixels vs separate read noise incurred for each individual pixel. There are very few commercial sensors on the market that do this - it's not even done in smartphones the last time I checked a few years ago.


I tried various approaches to test and compare Leica in-camera pixel binning DR/noise result with M11 L/M/S DNG. But because the 60 MP un-binned file contains more visible data/detail as I zoom in, I'm not sure if that is a proper compare. I like Mathphotogrpaher's approach using values to measure in-camera DR/noise between the in-camera pixel binned files as I don't think I see it otherwise. Not sure many would see a 7.1% advantage.

* I value using the in-camera binned smaller files for operational convenience as am not seeing the IQ advantage as I wrote.

Edited on Apr 06, 2024 at 11:39 AM · View previous versions



Apr 06, 2024 at 11:36 AM
snapsy
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Leica Triple Resolution marketing vs reality. Another look.


LBJ2 wrote:
I tried various approaches to test and compare Leica in-camera pixel binning DR/noise result with M11 L/M/S DNG. But because the 60 MP un-binned file contains more visible data/detail as I zoom in, I'm not sure if that is a proper compare. I like Mathphotogrpaher's approach using values to measure in-camera DR/noise between the in-camera pixel binned files as I don;t think I see it otherwise.


The simplest method is to resize the full-size raw in PS down to the resolution of the in-camera smaller raws and compare the resulting detail and noise.



Apr 06, 2024 at 11:39 AM
snapsy
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Leica Triple Resolution marketing vs reality. Another look.


Here's a comparison I did between a 2x2 pixel bin and PS Preserve Details 2.0, included in my Dpreview post above.








Apr 06, 2024 at 11:42 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Leica Triple Resolution marketing vs reality. Another look.


As Adam pointed out, this can be done with any camera and any image file.

For example, to resize your DNG files to 18MP using an interpolation method similar to what Photoshop does, follow these steps:

If you haven't already, install ImageMagick on your computer. You can download and install ImageMagick from the official website: https://imagemagick.org/script/download.php

Insert your SD card to to the computer (or use your camera's USB-C):

Open a terminal or command prompt.
__________

magick mogrify -path /path/to/output/directory -resize 4896x3672> -filter Lanczos -define filter:support=2 /path/to/your/sdcard/*.dng
__________

Replace /path/to/output/directory with the desired output directory where resized DNG files will be saved.
Replace /path/to/your/sdcard with the path to your SD card directory where DNG files are located.


The primary advantage of doing this in-camera is to have a larger buffer (since the files are smaller) and the convenience of getting a smaller file without additional steps. However, the drawback is that once you capture an 18MP image in-camera, you can't later obtain the full 60MP resolution again. By using the method described above, you can enjoy the benefits of both approaches.



Apr 06, 2024 at 11:43 AM
LBJ2
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Leica Triple Resolution marketing vs reality. Another look.


Fred Miranda wrote:
As Adam pointed out, this can be done with any camera and any image file.

For example, to resize your DNG files to 18MP using an interpolation method similar to what Photoshop does, follow these steps:

If you haven't already, install ImageMagick on your computer. You can download and install ImageMagick from the official website: https://imagemagick.org/script/download.php

Insert your SD card to to the computer (or use your camera's USB-C):

Open a terminal or command prompt.

magick mogrify -path /path/to/output/directory -resize 4896x3672> -filter Lanczos -define filter:support=2 /path/to/your/sdcard/*.dng

Replace /path/to/output/directory with the desired output directory where resized DNG files will be saved.
Replace /path/to/your/sdcard with the path to
...Show more

Thanks Fred. I'm familiar with the potential benefits of resizing files in apps/editors such as Photoshop. I've not used ImageMagick to do this yet but have used Adobe for the same.

I have a specific interest in observing or not, potential DR/noise advantages produced by Leica in-camera pixel-binned DNG files, not resizing the un-binned 60MP DNA file in Photoshop.



Apr 06, 2024 at 11:53 AM
LBJ2
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Leica Triple Resolution marketing vs reality. Another look.


snapsy wrote:
Here's a comparison I did between a 2x2 pixel bin and PS Preserve Details 2.0, included in my Dpreview post above.







Thank you. Yes. I saw this GIF on the thread where you were talking about experimenting with 2x2 pixel bin. That's why I reached out. BTW is this the DPR Studio ?



Apr 06, 2024 at 11:57 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Leica Triple Resolution marketing vs reality. Another look.


LBJ2 wrote:
Thanks Fred. I'm familiar with the potential benefits of resizing files in apps/editors such as Photoshop. I've not used ImageMagick to do this yet but have used Adobe for the same.

I have a specific interest in observing or not, potential DR/noise advantages produced by Leica in-camera pixel-binned DNG files, not resizing the un-binned 60MP DNA file in Photoshop.


Since you've got the Leica M11, here's a fun experiment to try out. Take two photos: one at 60MP and another at 18MP. Then, use PS (or the method above) to resize the 60MP image down to 18MP. Finally, compare the resized 60MP image with the native 18MP one side by side. You'll be able to see the difference for yourself! I have already done this, and I'm convinced that there is no advantage to doing this in-camera in terms of lower noise or better image quality.

As I mentioned, it's mainly convenient if for some reason,, you prefer smaller file sizes out of the camera. You don't need Leica or MathPhotographer to convince you.
Happy experimenting!



Apr 06, 2024 at 12:00 PM
LBJ2
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Leica Triple Resolution marketing vs reality. Another look.


Fred Miranda wrote:
Since you've got the Leica M11, here's a fun experiment to try out. Take two photos: one at 60MP and another at 18MP. Then, use PS (or the method above) to resize the 60MP image down to 18MP. Finally, compare the resized 60MP image with the native 18MP one side by side. You'll be able to see the difference for yourself! I have already done this, and I'm convinced that there is no advantage to doing this in-camera in terms of lower noise or better image quality.

As I mentioned, it's mainly convenient if for some reason,, you prefer
...Show more

Mathphotographer's approach and results is compelling IMO, hence the reason I started the thread. So far my eyes have not been able to confirm his 7.1% results which is why my interest. His test is: in-camera binned medium and small DNGs alleged DR and noise advantage compared to the in-camera un-binned, full size 60 MP DNG. Not comparing in-camera binned or not binned files to images downsized in post.

Thanks for the compare scenario idea. I'm planning to repeat with the M-DNG since according to Mathphotographer's results is where I might see something.



Apr 06, 2024 at 12:07 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Leica Triple Resolution marketing vs reality. Another look.


Sure! Itís an interesting discussion. Let us know what you discover something .

LBJ2 wrote:
Mathphotographer's approach and results is compelling IMO, hence the reason I started the thread. So far my eyes have not been able to confirm his 7.1% results which is why my interest. His test is: in-camera binned medium and small DNGs alleged DR and noise advantage compared to the in-camera un-binned, full size 60 MP DNG. Not comparing in-camera binned or not binned files to images downsized in post.

Thanks for the compare scenario idea. I'm planning to repeat with the M-DNG since according to Mathphotographer's results is where I might see something.




Apr 06, 2024 at 01:59 PM
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