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Newest R5II Rumours and Thoughts

  
 
RoamingScott
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Newest R5II Rumours and Thoughts


artsupreme wrote:
I'm torn on the whole stacked sensor feature for the R5 because I don't need rolling shutter to be totally eliminated for what I shoot. I'm not a chip expert but if the R5 chips are 5+ years old I would guess they would be able to improve readout speed 30-40% with newer chips? Maybe get it close to the 10ms range? If yes, then I would be totally happy with it as it would eliminate the majority of rolling shutter. This would keep the same form factor, keep weight down, and leave more room inside for cooling during video
...Show more

The most general boon stacked gets you is blackout free shooting, which any burst mode shooter would benefit from. Rolling shutter is mostly a concern for people tracking a subject while quickly panning (edge case shooting).



Mar 15, 2024 at 12:56 PM
artsupreme
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Newest R5II Rumours and Thoughts


RoamingScott wrote:
The most general boon stacked gets you is blackout free shooting, which any burst mode shooter would benefit from. Rolling shutter is mostly a concern for people tracking a subject while quickly panning (edge case shooting).


Yes, and I shoot sports/action and it doesn't bother me as I have become used to it. So any improvement is welcome, but it doesn't need to be blackout free. You can still get the shot with some blackout.



Mar 15, 2024 at 01:07 PM
rscheffler
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Newest R5II Rumours and Thoughts


Yeah, I have mixed feelings about blackout shooting sports. It's different than what I experienced with the 1DX series. With those cameras I could usually follow erratic motion with little difficulty. With the R6II in EFCS H or H+, the longer the sequence the more I feel like I'm falling behind, trying to catch up to the subject, particularly if shooting verticals and shooting as tight as possible. The EVF jumpiness Geoff mentioned in his post is also another annoyance. In e-shutter it's less of a problem because there isn't the blackout caused by the mechanical second curtain shutter, but there is still some cumulative lag due to apparent still-frame insertion. But likewise, at its price point, the R6II is apparently a better action camera than its competitors.

I agree though it doesn't have to be stacked as long as there is significant improvement in sensor read speed. Canon has shown that non-stacked can be reasonably fast and certainly faster than comparable non-stacked BSI models from Sony. Everyone was over the moon with the a9 back in 2017 and that sensor is about 1/150. If the R5II can come close, it would be good enough for most uses. 1/250 stacked could be for the R1, R3II, etc. Global is just splitting hairs even more. Sure, eventually we'll all be there (global) and will be happy with it, but IMO most sports coverage will gain marginal benefits over decent stacked performance.

Jeff Nolten wrote:
I don't know what the R5 II will bring but I'm sure it will be an excellent all-rounder like its predecessors. Probably along the lines of what Artsupreme is looking for. Look at the delta between the R6 and the R6 II and expect similar change.


R6 -> R6II was only about two years and the seemingly minimal improvement are reflective of this. But in actual use, the R6II is a better experience (smoother EVF even though the same panel due to underlying processor improvments), battery life, better sensor, AF customizability, high frequency flicker compensation, slightly faster sensor read speed than the R5, etc...

So for the 4-year R5-R5II gap, there *should* be more revolutionary than just evolutionary changes. At minimum considerably more powerful processor performance to allow significant speed improvements coupled with newer sensor tech to really speed up overall performance. I agree it will still be a generalist camera, like the 5 series always has been, but with a much smaller performance gap than the 1, 5 and 6 series cameras had in the DSLR era, as we've already seen with the R3, 5 and 6 models.

Edited on Mar 15, 2024 at 01:26 PM · View previous versions



Mar 15, 2024 at 01:24 PM
RoamingScott
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Newest R5II Rumours and Thoughts


rscheffler wrote:
Yeah, I have mixed feelings about blackout shooting sports. It's different than what I experienced with the 1DX series. With those cameras I could usually follow erratic motion with little difficulty. With the R6II in EFCS H or H+, the longer the sequence the more I feel like I'm falling behind, trying to catch up to the subject, particularly if shooting verticals and shooting as tight as possible. The jumpiness Geoff mentioned in his post is also another annoyance. In e-shutter it's less of a problem because there isn't the blackout caused by the mechanical second curtain shutter, but there
...Show more

You're not shooting true blackout free if you're using an old non-stacked sensor in H/H+.

Try an A1/A9iii/Z8/Z9 and you'll immediately know the difference...and likely never want to go back.



Mar 15, 2024 at 01:25 PM
johnvanr
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Newest R5II Rumours and Thoughts


It may well be that Canon keeps the R5II as its reliable and relatively affordable “Toyota” so that those who want the “Lexus” version get the R1.

Honestly, I think the megapixel race is not relevant for all but a few photographers now that we’ve passed 40mp. That’s like complaining your car can’t do 150mph even though you’re never going to drive 150mph if it could.



Mar 15, 2024 at 01:34 PM
rscheffler
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Newest R5II Rumours and Thoughts



RoamingScott wrote:
You're not shooting true blackout free if you're using an old non-stacked sensor in H/H+.

Try an A1/A9iii/Z8/Z9 and you'll immediately know the difference...and likely never want to go back.


Yeah, I know that. I know that the R5/6/6II in e-shutter do still frame insertion to mask the blackout caused by the slower sensor speed. My point is that if the R5II is not stacked but can get to something similar to the original a9's speed (1/150), the difference should be minimal and be a significant improvement over the R5/6/6II for sports/action use. That said, I kind of doubt Canon would give us that much of a performance improvement.



Mar 15, 2024 at 01:35 PM
alundeb
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Newest R5II Rumours and Thoughts


The R5II looks to be a meaningful mk II of the R5. If it gets a stacked sensor, it will be a significant upgrade.

For the high megapixel hungry like myself, I didn't expect the R5 II to be that camera, rather that we would see a split 5 series or 1 series, with a high resolution branch. The effect is the same though, we don't have that high resolution upgrade after 9 years.

If I was more productive these days, I would get a GFX100S without any doubt, hands down, only game in town. Looking into Sony and possibly be stuck with 60 MP like Canon is stuck with 45, does not look any better than waiting for Canon to step up for me. At least I would wait until we see the next move up before switching.



Mar 15, 2024 at 01:36 PM
Critters
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Newest R5II Rumours and Thoughts


There is a zebra setting for the Canon R5 that only works in review. Therefore you have to take a picture and review it...then change the settings by guess. take another picture and recheck. With the Sony it is a live zebra and you adjust your settings while framing the shot.

As far as color differences, I shoot only RAW and have never seen a problem.

Since I am also landscape compositionally challenged , I really need all those A7R5 megapixels in post.



Mar 15, 2024 at 01:59 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Newest R5II Rumours and Thoughts


The blackout issue fascinates me.

Before I explain, I do think that having a blackout free viewfinder would be a fine thing, and we'll see that more and more going forward. At some point in the future it may well become the norm.

But blackout is not a new thing. SLR and DSLR cameras have always had a blackout as the mirror flipped up at the time of exposure.

I think one reason that people seem to be more concerned about it with EVFs is that they just aren't used to a monitor that temporarily loses the image — the issue isn't the presence of the blackout itself, but just that we haven't adapted to it initially to the same level that we have with SLR/DSLR designs.



Mar 15, 2024 at 02:14 PM
mawz
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Newest R5II Rumours and Thoughts


gdanmitchell wrote:
The blackout issue fascinates me.

Before I explain, I do think that having a blackout free viewfinder would be a fine thing, and we'll see that more and more going forward. At some point in the future it may well become the norm.

But blackout is not a new thing. SLR and DSLR cameras have always had a blackout as the mirror flipped up at the time of exposure.

I think one reason that people seem to be more concerned about it with EVFs is that they just aren't used to a monitor that temporarily loses the image — the issue
...Show more

Part of it is the tendency for 'slideshow' displays when shooting at high frame rates with EVF's that aren't blackout-free. That's really jarring and near impossible to track moving subjects with. The A9 killed that dead in the market, so now the expectation is blackout-free for action even if a little blackout is not an issue so long as it's real live view in between.



Mar 15, 2024 at 02:23 PM
 


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alundeb
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Newest R5II Rumours and Thoughts


I think 'lag-free' viewfinder is a better description than 'blackout-free'. It explains why the experience of not having it is worse than the mirror blackout. Even the original R is supposed to have blackout-free shooting.


Mar 15, 2024 at 02:26 PM
artsupreme
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Newest R5II Rumours and Thoughts


alundeb wrote:
I think 'lag-free' viewfinder is a better description than 'blackout-free'. It explains why the experience of not having it is worse than the mirror blackout. Even the original R is supposed to have blackout-free shooting.


Yes, I called it the "slideshow effect" when first started shooting ML and I absolutely hated it coming from the 1DXIII OVF. Regardless of what everyone calls it, years later I'm used to it now and I deal with it. I also shoot R3's so I'm familiar with the difference between the R5 and R3, but I can still get the shots with the R5 unless it's a shot that requires no rolling shutter or a super difficult shot to get like a bat-on-ball, etc.

With that said, if Canon offers a nice performance upgrade compared to where the R5 is now and keeps it non-stacked sensor I'll be a happy camper. But I'm sure I'm the minority as I think most want a stacked sensor.




Mar 15, 2024 at 02:37 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Newest R5II Rumours and Thoughts


action99 wrote:
You are mixing things up.
Zebras is an exposure tool and is a "bw pattern" that is used to alert you which areas are above a certain exposure level.
Focus peaking is what you seem to be referring above, where it colors the areas of strong contrast showing what it is in focus.

R5 does have zebras and peaking but only in video mode not in photo mode. Peaking is available only when in manual AF. R5c has peaking also when in AF mode.


Thanks Action99 - maybe I will try it. I always use the histogram and checking blinkies after shooting on my tripod. But maybe i need to try zebra's.



Mar 16, 2024 at 10:10 AM
rscheffler
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Newest R5II Rumours and Thoughts


gdanmitchell wrote:
But blackout is not a new thing. SLR and DSLR cameras have always had a blackout as the mirror flipped up at the time of exposure.

I think one reason that people seem to be more concerned about it with EVFs is that they just aren't used to a monitor that temporarily loses the image — the issue isn't the presence of the blackout itself, but just that we haven't adapted to it initially to the same level that we have with SLR/DSLR designs.


I'll try to better explain how the blackout differs based on my experiences with the 1DX series and the R6II (and also R6 and R5 - I had less time with the R3 and not side by side with any of the other R cameras to compare).

With the DSLR being based on an optical viewfinder, the only distortion of the image seen through the viewfinder is determined by the speed and smoothness of the mirror system. There is a momentary blackout, obviously, then the mirror returns to viewing position and you see the image again. With a 1DX camera, the mirror return is very fast, well dampened and therefore very smooth. It's very easy to continue following moving subjects and keeping them where you want them in the composition while shooting a sequence. There is only the momentary blackout to deal with.

With the R6 (not R6II), in EFC or full mechanical shutter, as with the DSLR, there is a momentary blackout, because the shutter blades block the sensor. Similarly to the DSLR, the blackout is brief. When the live view resumes after the exposure, there is a tendency for the image to momentary jump, which disrupts the smoothness of the image feed and is somewhat disorienting when following fast and especially erratic subjects. It's more likely for the subject to drift away from where I want them in the composition, especially after multiple images in a burst. The R6II has a new sensor and newer processor, but the same EVF panel as the R6, yet the resumption of the live feed after each frame or at the end of a burst is smoother than the R6 and it was one of the reasons I opted for the R6II over the R6 as my primary camera for sports/action. But there is still some jump/jitter that continues to be bothersome for me.

In e-shutter at the high frame rates, like 20 or 40 fps, there is still frame insertion to mask the momentary blackout when the still image is pulled off the sensor and it's not processing the live feed. This experience is smoother than EFC/mechanical shutter but the still frame insertion becomes cumulative on longer bursts, by which I mean if the subject if moving across the field of view and you're panning with them, it feels like you progressively fall behind and they move closer to the edge of the frame.

Plus there is lag to deal with. The time it takes to process the live feed off the sensor. With the 1DX series shooting hockey, I could reliably do single frames of slap shots with the stick on the puck at the moment of impact. I can't do it reliably with the R6II. It's necessary to press the shutter release a lot farther in advance.

Faster image processing would help minimize this, though I doubt it will ever be entirely eliminated because there is always a slight delay caused by image processing.

Does it have to be stacked sensor? I don't know. So far Canon have shown they can make relatively fast non-stacked sensors, as used in the R5/6/6II/8 which are faster than the BSI sensors in the a7/a7R/z6/z7 series cameras. But those are still only at best two times slower than the original a9 from 2017 and four times slower than that in the a1/z8/z9.

As I've said before, I can live with momentary blackout but the resumption of the live feed needs to be smooth. But no blackout would be ideal.

Another small feature improvement I'd like to see in the R5II is the ability to dial in whatever frame rate you want in e-shutter (assuming there is still a mechanical shutter option too). Lots of times I'd like something in the 7-10 fps range but on the R6II the e-shutter options are only 5, 20 and 40. That's why I often use EFCS where H+ is ~12fps and H is ~7fps.



Mar 16, 2024 at 10:36 AM
molson
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Newest R5II Rumours and Thoughts


Scott Stoness wrote:
So if you are just getting for focus stacking, the r5 or r5ii is marginally better (articulating screen) or worse than the Sony (heavier). Why bother for marginal difference. Although the articulating screen is a big deal for focus stacking, the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence.


For me, the selfie-screen is a deal breaker, because I don't focus stack selfies, and the Canon design makes it difficult to use when the camera is on mounted on a tripod with n L-bracket. The Sony and Nikon tilting screens are far superior in this regard.



Mar 16, 2024 at 11:04 AM
Gochugogi
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Newest R5II Rumours and Thoughts


molson wrote:
For me, the selfie-screen is a deal breaker, because I don't focus stack selfies, and the Canon design makes it difficult to use when the camera is on mounted on a tripod with n L-bracket. The Sony and Nikon tilting screens are far superior in this regard.


Some of the EOS-M models had the selfie-style screen: tilt and pull it above the top of the camera. Good for traditional arm's length v-blogging (YouTube era) but I prefer the increased flexibility of the articulating screen off to the side. If you mainly shoot vertical video for Instagram and TikTok the L-bracket makes sense. I'd mount a HDMI monitor and dedicate the rear screen for touch settings. The rear screen is too small for serious composing anyway.



Mar 16, 2024 at 06:13 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Newest R5II Rumours and Thoughts


There is no such thing as a lag free digital monitoring system. The best current displays do a fine job of minimizing latency and we have adjusted to it, but it is technically impossible to completely eliminate it.

As to LCDs, I also am not a fan of the flip out screens. I like the design on my Fujifilm XT5 quite a bit as it doesn’t interfere with portrait mode on the tripod. (I am less happy with that camera’s port locations, especially for the remote release.)

alundeb wrote:
I think 'lag-free' viewfinder is a better description than 'blackout-free'. It explains why the experience of not having it is worse than the mirror blackout. Even the original R is supposed to have blackout-free shooting.



Edited on Mar 16, 2024 at 06:45 PM · View previous versions



Mar 16, 2024 at 06:39 PM
johnctharp
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Newest R5II Rumours and Thoughts


gdanmitchell wrote:
There is no such thing as a lag free digital monitoring system. The best current displays do a fine job of minimizing latency and we have adjusted to it, but it is technically impossible to completely eliminate it.


We can always break out the crayons if needed



Mar 16, 2024 at 06:42 PM
snapsy
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Newest R5II Rumours and Thoughts


gdanmitchell wrote:
There is no such thing as a lag free digital monitoring system. The best current displays do a fine job of minimizing latency and we have adjusted to it, but it is technically impossible to completely eliminate it.


Current-generation bodies with stacked sensors have LV lags of <= 50ms in non-magnified shooting mode, which should be comfortably below the threshold of human perception of lag, so there shouldn't be much if anything to adjust to.



Mar 16, 2024 at 07:04 PM
johnctharp
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Newest R5II Rumours and Thoughts


snapsy wrote:
Current-generation bodies with stacked sensors have LV lags of <= 50ms in non-magnified shooting mode, which should be comfortably below the threshold of human perception of lag, so there shouldn't be much if anything to adjust to.


Should check out some testing with input devices for competitive gaming... 50ms would be considered a travesty. Obviously folks have been making due with much worse for decades, so we'll get along.



Mar 16, 2024 at 07:40 PM
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