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Official: Leica SL3 Released!

  
 
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p.11 #1 · p.11 #1 · Official: Leica SL3 Released!


Goodrich wrote:
diglloyd must be the unluckiest fuzz tester on the planet. (His Mac tests have a similar character to his camera / lens tests.) I have subscribed to him, but didn't find that he provided me with actionable information. Even his lens tests -- scenes shot at varying apertures, nicely embedded in a web page for easy comparison -- did not seem to show what his text claimed to show, particularly when he was comparing Leica and Zeiss lenses. And after doing half a dozen comparative scenes, there was no conclusion. "If you want ultimate image quality go with a, but
...Show more

The SL2's sensor doesn't have the best dynamic range available, but it still delivers excellent images. I plan to keep using the SL2 until Leica irons out the firmware for the SL3. No hurry for me.



Apr 12, 2024 at 06:56 PM
zhangyue
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p.11 #2 · p.11 #2 · Official: Leica SL3 Released!


I have to say I am disappointed with SL3 update. Other than 60M Sony sensor as key highlight. there are many surprising regression such as battery life, E shutter speed, and no high resolution mode mentioned. I don't see that happen often for digital camera update, 4 years is a long time. To me, the show stopper for SL3 are E shutter speed, missing high resolution mode. If you dont need AF update, I see very little reason to get SL3.

For SL2 and SL2S I default use E shutter. (The mechanical shutter shock of SL2/SL2S with long glass around 1/60~1/150s are not good.) 1/30ish s e shutter speed will meet most of my requirement if not all but can't say the same for 1/10s. SL2 high resolution mode IQ for landscape will beat any 35mm IQ out there include M11, A7R5 and SL3. TBH, I was hoping handhold high resolution mode in Panasonic S5II will be carried to SL3.

Anyway, can't compare SL2 intro, what a nice camera it is 4 years ago. Not for me this time.



Apr 13, 2024 at 03:40 AM
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p.11 #3 · p.11 #3 · Official: Leica SL3 Released!


zhangyue wrote:
I have to say I am disappointed with SL3 update. Other than 60M Sony sensor as key highlight. there are many surprising regression such as battery life, E shutter speed, and no high resolution mode mentioned. I don't see that happen often for digital camera update, 4 years is a long time. To me, the show stopper for SL3 are E shutter speed, missing high resolution mode. If you dont need AF update, I see very little reason to get SL3.

For SL2 and SL2S I default use E shutter. (The mechanical shutter shock of SL2/SL2S with long glass around
...Show more

Aside from PDAF, there is also the dynamic range and signal-to-noise ratio advantage to consider. The SL2/Q2 sensor does not perform as well in these aspects compared to the latest Leica 40MP sensor or a version of the 61MP sensor from Sony used on the SL3/Q3 bodies.

I agree that for video and when shooting with an electronic shutter, a read-out speed of 1/10s is simply terrible and an obvious downgrade from the SL2.



Apr 13, 2024 at 03:18 PM
flash
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p.11 #4 · p.11 #4 · Official: Leica SL3 Released!


zhangyue wrote:
I have to say I am disappointed with SL3 update. Other than 60M Sony sensor as key highlight. there are many surprising regression such as battery life, E shutter speed, and no high resolution mode mentioned. I don't see that happen often for digital camera update, 4 years is a long time. To me, the show stopper for SL3 are E shutter speed, missing high resolution mode. If you dont need AF update, I see very little reason to get SL3.

For SL2 and SL2S I default use E shutter. (The mechanical shutter shock of SL2/SL2S with long glass around
...Show more

I'm right in the middle of shutter shock testing on the SL3. Primarily with three lenses. The 90 APO SL, Sigma 500 f5.6 with and without TC and the Sigma 150-600.

I've tested the 90, tripod mounted from 1/10 to 1/500 and nothing. Nil. Nada. Zip. I see absolutely no evidence of shutter shock with this lens. The 150-600 @ 600 is the same but I've only tested at higher shutter speeds. I saw little point at testing 600mm at 1/100th. Same with the 500. I do like the 500.

The forum won't let me post images right now for some reason but I will later. Any other lenses I have you want tested? I'm basically done for my own use cases.

For battery life I get around 400 shots in normal use with Fotos on high. Around 500+ with it off.

The SL2 arrived without high res shot as well. It may come to the SL3.

There is a noticeable bump in IQ from the SL2. Not just noise but resolution, DR and file pliability have all improved. This is about as good as it gets in small format sensors with high resolution.

But yes, the SL2 is still the same fine camera it was before the SL3 release.

Gordon



Apr 13, 2024 at 06:06 PM
braindeadmac
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p.11 #5 · p.11 #5 · Official: Leica SL3 Released!


Fred Miranda wrote:
Anyone else getting file corruption with the new SL3?

https://diglloyd.com/blog/2024/20240404_0700-LeicaSL3-CorruptFiles-again.html



Nope, using 3 different cards (both UHS-1 and UHS-2 Sandisk), around 1000 exposures, Sigma 150-600, Leica APO primes and Leica 24-90;

I really don't bother much with Loyd's drama anymore, I don't find it believable that he has such persistent bad luck.



Apr 13, 2024 at 06:37 PM
flash
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p.11 #6 · p.11 #6 · Official: Leica SL3 Released!


OK. I did some more testing for shutter shock with the longer zooms I own. That's the Panasonic 70-200 f4, SL90-280, SL100-400, Sigma 100-400, Sigma 500 and Sigma 150-600. It's sunny day here with little or no breeze. Tripod was a Gitzo 3 series with an Arca Swiss D4 Geared head. I tested shutter speeds from 1/50 to 3f on each lens multiple times at multiple focal lengths on each lens. Tested with IS on and off. On tripod and handheld. Timber fence subject so zero possible movement. Distance 20 meters.

I CAN get shutter shock but the results vary widely. The 150-600 was the worst. 1/50 to 2.3f at the long end. The SL90-280, 100-400 and Sigma 500 were the best. 1/50 to 1-1.3f. All were fine after 3f. (3x the focal length). Once again the 150-600 disappoints. Above the 1/f limit the best three lenses had a very small difference but it was there.

ES and IS don't mix at these speeds. Sometimes I'd get weird results with them both on but it was often worse than IS on the mechanical shutter.

So yeah, Leica still needs to implement EFCS.

Handheld the results were quite interesting. Often the handheld shots were sharper than the tripod ones in the danger zone. Like stops better. I have no idea why. Not always but often enough I noticed it. Maybe I'm damping the system when handholding? That explains why I've seen little to no issues. I do most of my testing handheld as that's the way I generally shoot.

None of my primes showed any real differences on or off the tripod. Difference is the cameras mounted to the tripod with primes and the lens is attached with the long zooms. And my longest prime is a 100mm.

So, for me.... I'll handhold at those danger speeds as the results are just better than a tripod. And a gimble for fast moving stuff and high shutter speeds. ES when it's dead calm and for shutter speeds longer than 1/10th. Basically, no changes.

Thanks for tempting me to do this though. I learned a lot from this little rabbit hole.

Gordon

EDIT: Glad I'm not a lens tester for a living: Just realised that with the Sigma lenses if you switch IS off at the lens it then if IBIS is on it takes over. Gah!!

So I've had to re-look at all the Sigma lenses and they're all fine from 1/f. Just like the Leica glass. I still get better results if I hold the camera (tripod mounted) vs the 12 seconds timer. Go figure.

Edited on Apr 14, 2024 at 02:16 AM · View previous versions



Apr 13, 2024 at 07:53 PM
stgrove
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p.11 #7 · p.11 #7 · Official: Leica SL3 Released!


braindeadmac wrote:
Nope, using 3 different cards (both UHS-1 and UHS-2 Sandisk), around 1000 exposures, Sigma 150-600, Leica APO primes and Leica 24-90;

I really don't bother much with Loyd's drama anymore, I don't find it believable that he has such persistent bad luck.


Lloyd is mainly click bait anymore. Sad to see.



Apr 13, 2024 at 08:32 PM
stgrove
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p.11 #8 · p.11 #8 · Official: Leica SL3 Released!


Gordon
Glad to see you threw everything you could think of at your concerns.

As you saw from my image on another thread about "watching out for ?? on the SL3", handheld and sharp even at a huge crop yields nice results.



Apr 13, 2024 at 08:37 PM
zhangyue
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p.11 #9 · p.11 #9 · Official: Leica SL3 Released!


flash wrote:
OK. I did some more testing for shutter shock with the longer zooms I own. That's the Panasonic 70-200 f4, SL90-280, SL100-400, Sigma 100-400, Sigma 500 and Sigma 150-600. It's sunny day here with little or no breeze. Tripod was a Gitzo 3 series with an Arca Swiss D4 Geared head. I tested shutter speeds from 1/50 to 3f on each lens multiple times at multiple focal lengths on each lens. Tested with IS on and off. On tripod and handheld. Timber fence subject so zero possible movement. Distance 20 meters.

I CAN get shutter shock but the results vary widely.
...Show more

I tested Panasonic 70-200 f4 at that time and concluded It is not usable with mechanical shutter within that range of shutter speed and I also tested and determined need disable Panasonic VR and use Leica SL2 IBIS can get me better results. Another lens I used is 180mm S. For any landscape shot, I have to use E shutter per my test because 1/60~1/150s are very important speed region I can't avoid not using. Maybe SL3 improve this regard comparing to SL2? At year 2024, with no EFCS on any Leica Camera is beyond me. A must have feature to reduce the lag, vibration and shutter noise. I have the same complain on M11 but there is no competitor on M land.

For SL2, I have default using E shutter for many years and prefer its responsiveness and quietness over mechanical shutter. It also offers faster than SL2S on scan speed at about 1/30s~1/40s comparing to SL2S's 1/24s.

High resolution mode is one of big selling feature for me for SL system. I can't speak for anyone else but both of these two regression hold me upgrading now. If Leica offer high resolution mode later, I might just get SL3 as I really like 60M sensor from using M11. But at this time, it is not mentioned anywhere on their website or marketing material. SL2 didnt have high resolution mode ready either at the time I bought it but it clearly mentioned on their introduction material. Not this time. finger crossed.

As for battery, it is not a reason to hold me back purchasing SL3. However, CIPA 260 rating SL3 vs 450 rating SL2 is a huge regression for anyone especially from anyone out of SL system to considering it. I reviewed the CIPA test condition, noting out of normal to be honest. It is really not about how many shots you or me can get with each battery but a useful spec to level all the manufacture on this performance. A key spec for any portable consumer electronics.

The good thing about Leica, for royal users, there is no competitor really. I stop looking Sony, Canon and even Nikon camera for a while now and don't plan to. However, as SL2 user, I fail to see the benefit of upgrade due to above regression mentioned. For exiting SL users, I believe Leica really need convince people to upgrade.

As for sensor, I prefer M11 60M sensor to SL2 47M sensor on DR. Resolution wise, it is really not much. (1.13X linear increase) and SL2's Panasonic sensor is awesome on color. I love it and prefer it over SL2S sensor by some margin.

For SL3, will they be able to attract more people outside of Leica land to get into this system? Compare to SL2, one big advantage is Lens selection make L mount itself much more attractive but as camera itself, SL3 is underwhelming compare to SL2 time.

If SL3 using A1 sensor with a little more capable specs here and there, sell at 8.5K. it will be the topic My 2C

Screenshot 2024-04-13 at 9.13.38 PM by ZHNL, on Flickr



Apr 13, 2024 at 11:31 PM
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p.11 #10 · p.11 #10 · Official: Leica SL3 Released!


zhangyue wrote:
I tested Panasonic 70-200 f4 at that time and concluded It is not usable with mechanical shutter within that range of shutter speed and I also tested and determined need disable Panasonic VR and use Leica SL2 IBIS can get me better results. Another lens I used is 180mm S. For any landscape shot, I have to use E shutter per my test because 1/60~1/150s are very important speed region I can't avoid not using. Maybe SL3 improve this regard comparing to SL2? At year 2024, with no EFCS on any Leica Camera is beyond me. A must have feature
...Show more

Let's hope the SL3-S will have the A1 sensor.



Apr 14, 2024 at 12:03 AM
 


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flash
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p.11 #11 · p.11 #11 · Official: Leica SL3 Released!


There is no way the A1 sensor has USABLE DR of the SL3 (or M11 for that matter). Maybe if you downres everything to 8MP like P2P does. I've been shooting them side by side for the last week. I have 40K frames on my A1 so it's not like I have no experience with it. The SL3 has more resolution, more DR and more pliable files. As does the M11 and A7R5.

P2P's charts have no place in the real world unless you only ever shoot for phone screen output.

According to P2P at ISO 6400 an iPhone 14 has as much DR as the Sony A1.

Agreed on the rest though. Not having EFCS is stupid.

A question though. You need a fast scan speed but you're OK with high res shot? Leica's high res shot is the best implementation besides Olympus for sure but it's still subject to issues with anything moving. Same as a slower scan speed right? So you really need very still subjects for the best HRS results but then a slower scan speed isn't OK? I'm a bit confused by how you deal with this? Can you explain?

Gordon



Apr 14, 2024 at 12:11 AM
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p.11 #12 · p.11 #12 · Official: Leica SL3 Released!


flash wrote:
There is no way the A1 sensor has USABLE DR of the SL3 (or M11 for that matter). Maybe if you downres everything to 8MP like P2P does. I've been shooting them side by side for the last week. I have 40K frames on my A1 so it's not like I have no experience with it. The SL3 has more resolution, more DR and more pliable files. As does the M11 and A7R5.

P2P's charts have no place in the real world unless you only ever shoot for phone screen output.

According to P2P at ISO 6400 an iPhone 14 has as
...Show more


Gordon,

I'm not referring to DR here. Nowadays, all cameras have excellent dynamic range. Even the Sony A7R II from almost 10 years ago offers similar dynamic range to current modern bodies.

What we're discussing is sensor read-out speed, which enables shooting without using the mechanical shutter and avoiding any distortion effects (commonly referred to as "jello effect"). The SL3-S could be a great option for this, and it's likely that the sensor in the Leica A1, given Leica's partnership with Sony on sensor technology, would be the most suitable choice for this purpose.



Apr 14, 2024 at 12:24 AM
flash
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p.11 #13 · p.11 #13 · Official: Leica SL3 Released!


Fred Miranda wrote:
Gordon,

I'm not referring to DR here. Nowadays, all cameras have excellent dynamic range. Even the Sony A7R II from almost 10 years ago offers similar dynamic range to current modern bodies.

What we're discussing is sensor read-out speed, which enables shooting without using the mechanical shutter and avoiding any distortion effects (commonly referred to as "jello effect"). The SL3-S could be a great option for this, and it's likely that the sensor in the Leica A1, given Leica's partnership with Sony on sensor technology, would be the most suitable choice for this purpose.


Hi Fred,

I agree that most modern cameras have more than enough DR. I was referring to Michael's P2P chart, which is not a real-world representation of *usable DR*. Lab tests are fun and all but mostly irrelevant. My 5 stop push tests show the SL3 approaching X2D levels of recoverability. That's significant and the A1 does not do this as well.

As I have an A1, I'm all in on a Leica SL3-S with that sensor. I have already said that. Even with the limited longer lenses from the L mount taken into account. I have most of them and I'd quite like to have my Sigma 500 plus TC strapped to a fast readout body.

However, if *shutter shock* isn't a big thing then how important is a fast read out sensor for most of us. So I'm experimenting to see whether shutter shock is present on the SL3 (it is). Where it's worst. What lenses do better. Are there any ways to mitigate it's use in real world shooting conditions? Eventually I'll get around to testing the ES on the SL2 and SL3. How much difference is there in real world shooting? May as well share my testing.

Gordon



Apr 14, 2024 at 01:42 AM
flash
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p.11 #14 · p.11 #14 · Official: Leica SL3 Released!


zhangyue wrote:
I tested Panasonic 70-200 f4 at that time and concluded It is not usable with mechanical shutter within that range of shutter speed and I also tested and determined need disable Panasonic VR and use Leica SL2 IBIS can get me better results. Another lens I used is 180mm S. For any landscape shot, I have to use E shutter per my test because 1/60~1/150s are very important speed region I can't avoid not using. Maybe SL3 improve this regard comparing to SL2? At year 2024, with no EFCS on any Leica Camera is beyond me. A must have feature
...Show more

Ok Michael, I've done some more testing. Specifically, on the SL3 and Panasonic 70-200, as that's a lens you have. Hope this helps.

Below are 2x 100% crops of the SL3 and 70-200 f4. Exif is shown on each photo and these are 100% crops. One is ES and the other side is MS. I did several shots up to 1/125th from 1/40th. They're all the same. Tripod mounted. IBIS On.

Now there's one important change I've made from my testing earlier today. No self timer. I am pushing the button for immediate exposure. You would think that this would yield worse results for the shots but it doesn't. The MS files are better. I *think* what's happening is that my hand is damping the camera. I thought of trying this after seeing that my handheld results were just as good as my tripod shots over 1/f. Even lower sometimes. I think I am seeing camera wobble, even on a sturdy tripod like my 3 series. Or am I damping the camera?

Is it actually possible that IQ will improve if we don't use the self timer or a cable release with Leica SL bodies? Should we in fact be holding the camera even on a tripod?

Gordon

p.s. I'm all in for an SL3S with A1 sensor. But I'm smitten with the SL3 sensor and want to get every drop from it for my large prints. After all I have to do something with my new 44" printer.














Apr 14, 2024 at 01:58 AM
zhangyue
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p.11 #15 · p.11 #15 · Official: Leica SL3 Released!


flash wrote:
There is no way the A1 sensor has USABLE DR of the SL3 (or M11 for that matter). Maybe if you downres everything to 8MP like P2P does. I've been shooting them side by side for the last week. I have 40K frames on my A1 so it's not like I have no experience with it. The SL3 has more resolution, more DR and more pliable files. As does the M11 and A7R5.

P2P's charts have no place in the real world unless you only ever shoot for phone screen output.

According to P2P at ISO 6400 an iPhone 14 has as
...Show more

Actually, M11 is the champion here. My speculation is due to no on sensor PDAF anywhere. M11 has the best sensor I ever used right there FujiGFX100sI and II. I have no experience with Sony A1 or A7R5. (or X2D)

I have to say SL2 sensor at low iso has nothing to complain about. SL2 and Panasonic S1R make that sensor too good 4 years ago. I read many complain about SL2 sensor for high ISO. I don't disagree compare to other market leaders but I don't need high ISO IQ for my photo personally.

I trust your experience and won't align P2P results with personal experience and you are right that you could have seen certain camera will do better than others even with the same DR rating on P2P. However, if we digger deeper on how P2P achieve these results, you will realize that all digital image are really all bunch of raw binary number, DR is very objective and can be reliably tested. Other than potential copy variation, it won't deviate much actually.


Screenshot 2024-04-13 at 11.56.27 PM by ZHNL, on Flickr

A question though. You need a fast scan speed but you're OK with high res shot?

Good question. these two are really orthogonal to me. For daily photo or hiking or travel, I want fast scan like A9 A1 or Z8 but need at least 1/30s. For dedicated landscape shot, I will not hesitate use high resolution mode any time I can, anything moving like leaf etc are fine to me, those will be blurred due to longer exposure but is part of image to me. (if you don't do auto detection, those will be overlay to create a blur effect) I actually wish leica will have Panasonic s5II implementation. Leica limit 1S exposure (many time a real limit for ND filter shooting) but Panasonic can do 8S and can do handhold high resolution, a feature I believe soon will be available for most manufacture due to AI, fast digital processor and digital vision improvement.

We discussed pixel binning on tripple resolution in other thread. The high resolution is really the same concept, not only increase resolution but also offer more than 1 stop (forget if they do 4 or 8 image combine now) dynamic range improvement. With that, SL2 can beat any 35mm camera out there if not all. SL3 will be even better if it has one.

Edited on Apr 14, 2024 at 02:40 AM · View previous versions



Apr 14, 2024 at 02:28 AM
zhangyue
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p.11 #16 · p.11 #16 · Official: Leica SL3 Released!


flash wrote:
Ok Michael, I've done some more testing. Specifically, on the SL3 and Panasonic 70-200, as that's a lens you have. Hope this helps.

Below are 2x 100% crops of the SL3 and 70-200 f4. Exif is shown on each photo and these are 100% crops. One is ES and the other side is MS. I did several shots up to 1/125th from 1/40th. They're all the same. Tripod mounted. IBIS On.

Now there's one important change I've made from my testing earlier today. No self timer. I am pushing the button for immediate exposure. You would think that this would yield worse
...Show more

Thank you, Gordon. No longer have that lens but looks like SL3 fixed problem I had with SL2. My test was using handhold though (and I suggest you do the same) because I try to mimic my real world using and understand the system. If I can have tripod, I most likely have time to enable E shutter.



Apr 14, 2024 at 02:35 AM
RustyBug
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p.11 #17 · p.11 #17 · Official: Leica SL3 Released!


flash wrote:

I think I am seeing camera wobble, even on a sturdy tripod like my 3 series. Or am I damping the camera?



I'm wondering if your hand is imparting more motion than the slap, and IBIS is offsetting the greater movement, thus the lesser movement is "hidden" within the larger range of movement. Curious to the results with IBIS off (might be splittin' hairs, but might reveal something).



Apr 14, 2024 at 09:44 AM
Planetwide
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p.11 #18 · p.11 #18 · Official: Leica SL3 Released!


Might be interesting to see the test without IBIS.


Apr 14, 2024 at 02:20 PM
flash
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p.11 #19 · p.11 #19 · Official: Leica SL3 Released!


RustyBug wrote:
I'm wondering if your hand is imparting more motion than the slap, and IBIS is offsetting the greater movement, thus the lesser movement is "hidden" within the larger range of movement. Curious to the results with IBIS off (might be splittin' hairs, but might reveal something).


---------------------------------------------

Planetwide wrote:
Might be interesting to see the test without IBIS.


Thanks gents and a valid request. I won't bore you with more pictures of a body cap or my side fence. But I did this this morning (close in and at 20 meters) and the results are:

The 150-600 @600mm shows slightly better results for ES to 1/f and then things are equal. On tripod (all IS off) using the 6 second timer vs no timer and holding the camera made no difference. Handheld was pretty much the same (I didn't see much if any improvement using ES) with IBIS and OIS on. It's a big lens so I expected camera shake to be dominant and it is.

Panasonic 70-200. No differences with ES on or off at any focal length when on a tripod @1/50. I tried mounting from the lens collar and the camera body and no differences. If anything all test shots showed a very slight improvement from yesterdays test so I'd have IS off on a tripod for ultimate IQ.

Leica 90-280. See above. No evidence of shutter shock when tripod mounted at any shutter speed tested (1/40- 1/300). IS off on tripod and on when hand held.

Leica 100-400. Similar to 150-500 but difference between ES and MS is smaller. But it still takes to 1/f to be equal.

Gordon

p.s. see below for sample shot from 150-600, tripod mounted. All IS off. A bit less than 1/f here.








Apr 14, 2024 at 05:48 PM
stgrove
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p.11 #20 · p.11 #20 · Official: Leica SL3 Released!


Gordon
Interesting studies. I am surprised about your findings with the Leica 100-400 since mine are sharp as heck even @400 and handheld, but SS 1/1000 minimum as that's my personal rule of thumb. If I can go 1/2000 then I will. Even with 50mm up to 90mm 1/500 minimum SS for me.

I know I am no longer steady so I need all the help I can get.



Apr 14, 2024 at 07:27 PM
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