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Call for help - building sensor readout speed database

snapsy
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p.6 #1 · p.6 #1 · Call for help - building sensor readout speed database

I've added a feature that lets you generate a link with one or more of the following customizations to the live table:

Sort order (click on a column header)
List filter. Let's you limit which vendors/models/speeds to display. Example: (Canon|Nikon) to only display Canon or Nikon
Highlighted models. Click on any model's row to highlight that model. You can highlight multiple models
Display format (secs in 1/x format or milliseconds)

https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/

Mar 28, 2024 at 06:19 PM

snapsy
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p.6 #2 · p.6 #2 · Call for help - building sensor readout speed database

Sony A7R III added

https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model1=%5ESony%20A7R%20III%24

Apr 07, 2024 at 12:45 PM

tschopp
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p.6 #3 · p.6 #3 · Call for help - building sensor readout speed database

Would it be possible to include crop factor in the video section or other things like line skipping? I understand these are probably something that needs looked up instead of measured. Also any thoughts on additional photo speeds, for example the a7Rv does 1/10s in lossless compressed raw but 1/20s in compressed raw, basically the difference between 14 bit and 12 bit.

Apr 14, 2024 at 09:26 AM

snapsy
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p.6 #4 · p.6 #4 · Call for help - building sensor readout speed database

tschopp wrote:
Would it be possible to include crop factor in the video section or other things like line skipping? I understand these are probably something that needs looked up instead of measured. Also any thoughts on additional photo speeds, for example the a7Rv does 1/10s in lossless compressed raw but 1/20s in compressed raw, basically the difference between 14 bit and 12 bit.

I include crop and compressed vs uncompressed resuults in the detailed measurements of many of the cameras - you can get to it by clicking the camera name in the table.

Establishing line skipping/binning would require shooting specific targets and analyzing the resulting output, which would be very involved. Fortunately it's mostly obvious which cameras are line skipping/binning based on their video readout speeds vs still speeds, net of the difference of the lower bit depths associated with video.

Apr 14, 2024 at 09:35 AM

Zenon Char
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p.6 #5 · p.6 #5 · Call for help - building sensor readout speed database

This is an excellent project. What we need moving forward is a new camera release to be added to this database as quickly as possible.

Apr 14, 2024 at 10:55 AM

snapsy
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p.6 #6 · p.6 #6 · Call for help - building sensor readout speed database

Added A6400. Special thanks to @Tschanrm

https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model1=%5ESony%20A6400%24

Apr 17, 2024 at 11:36 AM

snapsy
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p.6 #7 · p.6 #7 · Call for help - building sensor readout speed database

Added Canon R8. Special thanks to @well69

Looks identical to the R6 II.

https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model1=%5ECanon%20R8%24

Next up - the R3, which I received yesterday.

May 01, 2024 at 09:48 AM

snapsy
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p.6 #8 · p.6 #8 · Call for help - building sensor readout speed database

And here's the Canon R3...had to buy this one myself to get the measurements

https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model1=%5ECanon%20R3%24

May 01, 2024 at 11:43 AM

mogul
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p.6 #9 · p.6 #9 · Call for help - building sensor readout speed database

I heard the R3 is going for bargain basement prices.

May 01, 2024 at 11:56 AM

snapsy
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p.6 #10 · p.6 #10 · Call for help - building sensor readout speed database

mogul wrote:
I heard the R3 is going for bargain basement prices.

I got mine from this week's Canon USA refurb sale - $3500 + tax. The original MSRP of $5999 was ridiculous IMO.

May 01, 2024 at 11:59 AM

snapsy
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p.6 #11 · p.6 #11 · Call for help - building sensor readout speed database

snapsy wrote:
And here's the Canon R3...had to buy this one myself to get the measurements

https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model1=%5ECanon%20R3%24

Here's a demonstration of the R3's high-speed flicker reduction feature, applied to the Arduino board LED that I'm running at 500Hz for my rolling shutter measurements.

May 01, 2024 at 12:20 PM

randomguy
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p.6 #12 · p.6 #12 · Call for help - building sensor readout speed database

Interesting, it is clear then that all full frame stacked sensor cameras from Canon/Nikon/Sony except the A9III has slower readout in video.

Another exception is the OM-1, but that is the slowest readout stacked sensor to begin with.

Wonder if that is because running fast readout to DRAM constantly generates to much heat in a stabilized sensor which probably doesn't have the best heat dissipation. Could also be a reason we don't see more cameras with pre capture.

Thanks for the excellent work!

May 01, 2024 at 01:57 PM

snapsy
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p.6 #13 · p.6 #13 · Call for help - building sensor readout speed database

randomguy wrote:
Interesting, it is clear then that all full frame stacked sensor cameras from Canon/Nikon/Sony except the A9III has slower readout in video.

Another exception is the OM-1, but that is the slowest readout stacked sensor to begin with.

Wonder if that is because running fast readout to DRAM constantly generates to much heat in a stabilized sensor which probably doesn't have the best heat dissipation. Could also be a reason we don't see more cameras with pre capture.

Thanks for the excellent work!

Heat would be my guess. Someone in my dpreview thread about this found a note in Sony's datasheet for the A9 sensor and it states the on-chip stacked memory can't be used in video mode due to heat.

I'ts not clear the A9 III has a faster readout for video. Since its global shutter latches the pixel values into separate registers as the method to avoid rolling shutter artifacts it can read out those registers at whatever minimum speed is necessary to support the frame rate.

May 01, 2024 at 02:02 PM

randomguy
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p.6 #14 · p.6 #14 · Call for help - building sensor readout speed database

snapsy wrote:
Heat would be my guess. Someone in my dpreview thread about this found a note in Sony's datasheet for the A9 sensor and it states the on-chip stacked memory can't be used in video mode due to heat.

I'ts not clear the A9 III has a faster readout for video. Since its global shutter latches the pixel values into separate registers as the method to avoid rolling shutter artifacts it can read out those registers at whatever minimum speed is necessary to support the frame rate.

By register you mean storing the charge on a capacitor until it is read? Just asking since I usually associate the word with a digital storage.

May 01, 2024 at 02:29 PM

snapsy
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p.6 #15 · p.6 #15 · Call for help - building sensor readout speed database

randomguy wrote:
By register you mean storing the charge on a capacitor until it is read? Just asking since I usually associate the word with a digital storage.

Yep. The sensor transfers the charge of all pixels concurrently into intermediate registers, where it's no longer integrating the exposure and thus can be read at whatever speed the camera wants to meet its other demands, for example the fps rate of the video.

May 01, 2024 at 02:32 PM

rscheffler
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p.6 #16 · p.6 #16 · Call for help - building sensor readout speed database

snapsy wrote:
Added Canon R8. Special thanks to @well69@

Looks identical to the R6 II.

https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model1=%5ECanon%20R8%24

Next up - the R3, which I received yesterday.

Should look identical since the R8 is basically the R6II without IBIS and probably a smaller buffer (or is restricted to only use a portion of the full buffer for purposes of model differentiation).

---------------------------------------------

snapsy wrote:
And here's the Canon R3...had to buy this one myself to get the measurements

https://horshack-dpreview.github.io/RollingShutter/?Model1=%5ECanon%20R3%24

Thanks, was waiting for this, but wasn't expecting you'd actually go and buy one! That's dedication to the project!

R3's e-shutter is a little bit faster than I expected.

May 01, 2024 at 10:57 PM

Mikica
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p.6 #17 · p.6 #17 · Call for help - building sensor readout speed database

Using completely different mesuring method I came to almost identical result (4.8 ms for ES for photographs) for R3. I also measured readout time for mechanical shutter (EFC) on R3 end came to unexpected result: 1.34 ms or 1/747 sec. Could someone test this value (for EFC) of some other manufacture's camera - would be interesting to see what value has Sony A1.

May 02, 2024 at 03:55 AM

snapsy
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p.6 #18 · p.6 #18 · Call for help - building sensor readout speed database

Mikica wrote:
Using completely different mesuring method I came to almost identical result (4.8 ms for ES for photographs) for R3. I also measured readout time for mechanical shutter (EFC) on R3 end came to unexpected result: 1.34 ms or 1/747 sec. Could someone test this value (for EFC) of some other manufacture's camera - would be interesting to see what value has Sony A1.

I plan to measure the R3's mechanical shutter as well - forgot to in my first pass. One thing you have to be careful when measuring mechanical shutters is accounting for their acceleration / non-linear speed over their travel distance. Measuring at the start of the movement will yield significantly different results than measuring the middle and end of the travel. What's interesting is that the EFCS is timed to account and match this, making for some interesting engineering.

May 02, 2024 at 04:08 AM

snapsy
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p.6 #19 · p.6 #19 · Call for help - building sensor readout speed database

Mikica wrote:
Using completely different mesuring method I came to almost identical result (4.8 ms for ES for photographs) for R3. I also measured readout time for mechanical shutter (EFC) on R3 end came to unexpected result: 1.34 ms or 1/747 sec. Could someone test this value (for EFC) of some other manufacture's camera - would be interesting to see what value has Sony A1.

I just measured the R3's EFCS at 1/274 and fully mechanical shutter at 1/253. This roughly matches Canon's R3's stated flash x-sync speeds of 1/250 for EFCS and 1/200 for fully mechanical. It's 1/180 for the electronic shutter.

May 02, 2024 at 05:10 AM

Mikica
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p.6 #20 · p.6 #20 · Call for help - building sensor readout speed database

Absolutely correct snapsy, I must apologize I made calculation mistake. I now got exactly the same value for R3 EFCS (1/274 sec) as you have got.

May 02, 2024 at 08:57 AM

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