Home · Register · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              end
  

Bokeh Character Preferences for Wide Aperture Lenses

  
 
Ataboy
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · Bokeh Character Preferences for Wide Aperture Lenses


berimbolo wrote:
Are there any modern lenses with this type of character/rendering? I've seen people talk about the rendering of the Sigma F1.2, is that a good example? People on photography forums talk about the character of the Zeiss Batis line. Are those lenses a good example?


Lomography Petzval line copied the original early Petzval lenses from the 19th century. Meyer-Optik has recreated old Primoplans, Trioplans and even a Biotar 75/1.5 (even though it was originally designed by Zeiss).

Most of this "character" comes from optical aberrations - something that lens designers tried to get rid of for centuries and finally pretty much succeeded.




Mar 06, 2024 at 12:48 PM
BastianK
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · Bokeh Character Preferences for Wide Aperture Lenses


On a related note, my colleague Martin published his review of the Helios 40 85mm 1.5 today:
https://phillipreeve.net/blog/review-kmz-helios-40-85mm-f-1-5-can-the-legend-live-up-to-its-reputation/

Personally I am not a big fan (of the lens that is, I think he did a very good job with the review),
but if you like that swirly vintage look, this is a good place to look for it.



Mar 07, 2024 at 04:36 AM
coralnut
Online
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · Bokeh Character Preferences for Wide Aperture Lenses


If a cinematographer were looking for a special effect for filming "The Time Tunnel" I might be able to tolerate the swirly bokeh for a few seconds. Otherwise, I don't find it appealing in the least.


Mar 07, 2024 at 08:27 AM
Kalainen
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · Bokeh Character Preferences for Wide Aperture Lenses


The Helios bokeh sure is pretty jarring, no doubt, but the question is how one could use it. Personally I would love to see a photography project that uses Helios characteristics to its advantage - to create pictures that stand out from the rest. Using it for everyday pictures, like general photographers would do, doesn't add anything for me.

That specific scene from Dune 2 (OP's post) is of course one example, but I would love to hear why Greig Fraser decided to use Helios for this scene. Having seen the movie I kind of think he wanted to separate the visuals from different families/houses (color grading, etc.), and while the emperor seems a quite distant character living in his own world without being really in touch with the reality, I feel the choice of using Helios was made to emphasize this aspect visually (together with different color grading, lighting, setups etc.). The jarring bokeh kind of emphasizes the emperor is closed in his own world - my interpretation only. One can also ask if this really added anything to the scene and if it was a good/bad choice.

What I found more interesting in Fraser interviews was that he found many lenses too perfect/clinical and he needed to muddy them up in the post. To me, this resonates what the Casenave from Zeiss said, that (with Supreme Primes) they wanted to create lenses that were perfect balance between modern and vintage look (hence the 'gentle sharpness'). Regarding lens design and aesthetics, this could be the next interesting step. At least the next step won't be 'more sharpness and better corners', I think we have that covered already..



Mar 08, 2024 at 03:42 AM
fjablo
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · Bokeh Character Preferences for Wide Aperture Lenses


I really enjoy the Helios bokeh sometimes, but it definitely can be distracting. If someone made a reasonably priced copy of the 58mm or 75mm Biotar, I'd pick them up immediately.

Here are some examples with the Helios 44-2 from earlier today:

Spring blossoms III by Felix, auf Flickr

Spring blossoms II by Felix, auf Flickr

Spring blossoms I by Felix, auf Flickr



Mar 10, 2024 at 07:37 AM
ottokbre
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · Bokeh Character Preferences for Wide Aperture Lenses


It's all due to some paradigm shifts.

Panavision doesn't sell lenses. They only rent them. So for years it was necessary to shoot the glass that worked on the camera and that's it.

Panavision has built lenses that were only used in a single film. Maybe two. So the look can be very idiosyncratic.

Digital sort of changed that. Cinematographers and DPs could go out and buy their own stuff. Then sensors jumped from Super35 (APS-C) to LF, either by DSLR shooting or by Red/Arria gear. This set off the cinema lens set collecting thing.

This level of experimenting has been a lot of fun and inspiring. I've heard DPs in interviews talk about being inspired by stills photographers too.

Rehousing stills lens has become a quite the cottage industry. Follow ZeroOptik on IG. They crank out some gorgeous work.

Lenses that I've had/have that I like for wild Bokeh:

Pentacon 50/1.8
Canon 50/1.4 LTM
CV 40/1.4 Nokton Classic
Helios 44-2



Mar 10, 2024 at 10:35 AM
ottokbre
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · Bokeh Character Preferences for Wide Aperture Lenses


Oh, not sure if it was mentioned here. But Dune was a hybrid process. Shot on digital but with a film internegative or print. Not sure which.


Mar 10, 2024 at 10:55 AM
Kalainen
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · Bokeh Character Preferences for Wide Aperture Lenses


ottokbre wrote:
Oh, not sure if it was mentioned here. But Dune was a hybrid process. Shot on digital but with a film internegative or print. Not sure which.


Great posts, both of them! I've never heard of this hybrid process, can you tell me more about this? I suspect this is related to what Fraser called 'muddying up' the too digital/clinical look..



Mar 12, 2024 at 02:21 AM
 


Search in Used Dept. 

catacore
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · Bokeh Character Preferences for Wide Aperture Lenses


As someone before was asking about a Sigma lens, I was wondering how the old Canon 50/0.95 "dream lens" would qualify for it's character within this discussion. I guess it is used by cinematographers to some extent.


Mar 12, 2024 at 04:40 AM
Kalainen
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · Bokeh Character Preferences for Wide Aperture Lenses


catacore wrote:
As someone before was asking about a Sigma lens, I was wondering how the old Canon 50/0.95 "dream lens" would qualify for it's character within this discussion. I guess it is used by cinematographers to some extent.


I guess any older lens would qualify because they often include all kind of 'unwanted aberrations'. It's of course about a matter of taste, but in general, cinematography uses these more in creative ways than usual photographers. In photography, I feel, it's much harder to find meaningful use for these kind of character lenses. Photographer needs to be pretty experienced and characteristics are probably best used within limited projects, not in general photography...




Mar 12, 2024 at 06:06 AM
catacore
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · Bokeh Character Preferences for Wide Aperture Lenses


Kalainen wrote:
I guess any older lens would qualify because they often include all kind of 'unwanted aberrations'. It's of course about a matter of taste, but in general, cinematography uses these more in creative ways than usual photographers. In photography, I feel, it's much harder to find meaningful use for these kind of character lenses. Photographer needs to be pretty experienced and characteristics are probably best used within limited projects, not in general photography...



Yes, but this is one of the methods employed to make one's pictures stand out. Some would over process their pictures, some would relay on bokeh, then some on vintage lenses. It's not about making a picture interesting subject-wise, but aesthetically, I guess.... I am not in that group of people saying that a picture should tell a story (we have literature for that), for me photography is a visual art, so it is about aesthetics after all.




Mar 12, 2024 at 06:23 AM
RomanMF
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · Bokeh Character Preferences for Wide Aperture Lenses


I don't know if anyone's watching SHOGUN on FX but it's also full of swirly and distorted bokeh. Interesting choice to shoot anamorphic and deliver 16:9

















Mar 14, 2024 at 01:51 AM
ottokbre
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · Bokeh Character Preferences for Wide Aperture Lenses


Kalainen wrote:
Great posts, both of them! I've never heard of this hybrid process, can you tell me more about this? I suspect this is related to what Fraser called 'muddying up' the too digital/clinical look..


I'm not totally sure if they went to print on film or if it was an internegative. But considering that you can see the movie on 70mm IMAX film my guess is that they just scanned a print. I'm sure this information is out there. I just haven't read up on much of it because I am still tying not to see spoilers (I really need a babysitter for movie night).

I HIGHLY recommend people who are into film aesthetic to follow Kodak Motion Professional's blog. I find it more inspiring than most photo websites.

https://www.kodak.com/en/motion/blog/



Mar 30, 2024 at 11:52 AM
highdesertmesa
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · Bokeh Character Preferences for Wide Aperture Lenses


RomanMF wrote:
I don't know if anyone's watching SHOGUN on FX but it's also full of swirly and distorted bokeh. Interesting choice to shoot anamorphic and deliver 16:9


Great show, but the wide angle distortion combined with the narrow depth of field in most shots makes it a little bit dizzying to watch. I guess that's the artistic intent, though, as it puts you in the "disoriented outsider" shoes to some extent.

Looks like a Super 35 anamorphic shot on the GFX sensor Quite a few shots with very hard corners (completely black binocular-like effect).



Mar 30, 2024 at 03:58 PM
fjablo
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · Bokeh Character Preferences for Wide Aperture Lenses




highdesertmesa wrote:
Great show, but the wide angle distortion combined with the narrow depth of field in most shots makes it a little bit dizzying to watch. I guess that's the artistic intent, though, as it puts you in the "disoriented outsider" shoes to some extent.

Looks like a Super 35 anamorphic shot on the GFX sensor Quite a few shots with very hard corners (completely black binocular-like effect).


I also noted the swirly bokeh (and extreme field curvature in some shots, like a Helios) and occasional hard vignetting.

Apparently the show was filmed on Sony Venice cameras with Hawk cine lenses:
https://www.vantagefilm.com/en/news/null/shogun-filmed-with-hawk-and-vantage-glass-12179



Mar 30, 2024 at 04:29 PM
1       2       3              end






FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username       Or Reset password



This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.