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Canon Flash Failure

mheston
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Canon Flash Failure

Hi,
I am spreading the news about the failure of communication between Canon "Sender" (Master) flashes and Canon "Receiver" (Slave) flashes. Since around 2020 the communication between Master and Slave flashes can be broken by a public radio wave of some kind. I’m not an EE, so I can’t tell you what the source of the problem is, but I can tell you that I have tested equipment all over the greater Seattle area, and about 80% of the time the Slaves disconnect from the Master in under 20 minutes of being turned on. The shortest time to disconnect happens in 60 seconds with most disconnects occuring in 8-12 minutes. I’ve only tested this in the greater Seattle area, but I suspect that if you are in a major urban area you will experience this failure.

I’ve tested this with Canon 600EX RTs as well as a new R3, RL-5 flash, and ST-E10 transmitter, so it’s happening to the latest Canon equipment.

You can read about what I’ve tested here: https://hestonphoto.com/info/canon-flash-failure-01.html

Marv Heston

Feb 21, 2024 at 12:41 AM

Gochugogi
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Canon Flash Failure

Yeah, an oft discussed topic in the past on FM. The dropped connections started about the time 5G became widespread in urban areas. Stills works fine in areas with little or no RFI, e.g., out in the sticks and far from 5G microwave transmitters. Here in downtown Honolulu you have to use optical triggers or wires.

Feb 21, 2024 at 03:56 AM

mheston
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Canon Flash Failure

Thanks for the confirmation. Canon treated me like an outlier, so I thought I was nearly the only one. Part of my purpose was to force Canons hand and fix the dam# problem.

Feb 21, 2024 at 09:32 AM

TomSchriefer
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Canon Flash Failure

I'm still using Canon 580EX II as slaves, mastered by a 90EX, or 90D. Rarely, I'll use one of the 580EX II units as a master. My entire neighborhood is new in the last several years, and there is 5G everywhere. I've never had a problem with visible light-fired EX units indoors. I tried radio w/YN 622 gear a few years back. Very unreliable.

Feb 21, 2024 at 09:39 AM

jedibrain
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Canon Flash Failure

I wonder if the delay/disappearance of the RF flash line has to do with Canon trying to engineer around this interference?

There's a baseless wild speculation based rumor for ya....

Brian

Feb 21, 2024 at 10:13 AM

Gochugogi
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Canon Flash Failure

mheston wrote:
Thanks for the confirmation. Canon treated me like an outlier, so I thought I was nearly the only one. Part of my purpose was to force Canons hand and fix the dam# problem.

The way radio frequencies are sliced up in the USA allows a very narrow amount for frequencies for civil use. The Feds have reserved most for themselves. Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, 5G, wireless mics, flash triggers, aircraft, etc., are sharing a narrow range of radio frequencies and prone to interfering with one another when nearby. I have to constantly deal with RFI from cellphones creating a chorus of "chirps" on audio equipment when recording musical performances. A performer with a cellphone in pocket has ruined many recordings (not the ringer) but the RFI is often strong as near as 10 feet out.

To get around the shortage of radio frequency bands for civil use would probably require a re-design of Canon's flash triggers. I suspect current Speedlites—designed before 5G—is fixable.

Feb 21, 2024 at 01:21 PM

rscheffler
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Canon Flash Failure

Thanks for starting this thread. It would be great if Canon would address this problem. But I suspect for 'legacy' RT equipment, like the original 600 EX-RT, there won't be any fix because those are no longer supported by Canon.

For reference, past discussions:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1775463/0
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1792328/1&year=2023#16157243
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1779084/2&year=2022#16271609

Gochugogi wrote:
To get around the shortage of radio frequency bands for civil use would probably require a re-design of Canon's flash triggers. I suspect current Speedlites—designed before 5G—is fixable.

The strange thing is that the now discontinued Phottix Laso receivers that I use, which operate on Canon's RT network (which I assume Phottix reverse engineered), have been very, very reliable while the Canon 600EX-RT v1 flashes I frequently use as remotes, have become very unreliable using their internal RT radio. BUT.... if I put those same Canon flashes on the Laso receivers, and use the Lasos to control and trigger the Canon flashes, all seems to work as it should (though I think there have been a few instances of random dropouts during longer events).

I should also mention that I use a Canon flash, or the STE3 trigger, as the master. So the outbound communication from Canon's own devices seems to work very reliably to trigger the Laso receivers. Therefore it would seem that the weakness is somewhere in receiver mode for Canon's flashes.

So what did Phottix do when reverse engineering Canon's RT system that Canon themselves didn't, that has kept them reliable while Canon's units no longer are?

Feb 21, 2024 at 01:28 PM

garyvot
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Canon Flash Failure

Still using optical signaling here too, because it still works well enough for me, knowing how to overcome its quirks. (580EX II, ST-E2, pair of 430EX II slaves, and a pocket-friendly 270EX II for travel.) Interesting to hear that the RT products are running into issues. (5G presumably?) One benefit of this older gear is that it works with newer bodies without requiring the impossible to find AD-E1 adapter.

I do have three Pocket Wizard radios that no longer work with current Canon models, and so I haven't tried to use them for some years. (I got these before Canon came out with its own solution.) I found the radio signaling helpful in large hotel ballrooms for lighting conference speakers with a pair of slaves spaced apart in the back of the room. (Surprisingly effective lighting when mixed with a little ambient.) To upgrade, it would be necessary to spend about $500 on a new transmitter from a partner company in addition to buying firmware updates for my existing radios. I'm no longer doing enough of this type of work to justify it.

Amazingly enough, I think I still have a few Wein Pro-Sync infrared triggers and a transmitter somewhere. These actually worked a treat even in very large rooms, and because they were "coded" you could work side by side with other event shooters without stepping on each other. Manual flash only of course.

Edited on Feb 22, 2024 at 08:40 AM · View previous versions

Feb 21, 2024 at 04:11 PM

rscheffler
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Canon Flash Failure

garyvot wrote:
Amazingly enough, I think I still have a few Wein Pro-Sync infrared triggers and a transmitter somewhere. These actually worked a treat even in very large rooms, and because they were "coded" you could work side by side with other event shooters without stepping on each other. Manual flash only of course.

I actually used the Wein IR trigger for some arena sports events to trigger strobes in the catwalks, believe it or not. At the time I had access to these through the distributor, but not the budget for the early PW radio triggers. And they worked!

B&H still lists the receiver as a special order item.

Feb 21, 2024 at 11:19 PM

jcolwell
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Canon Flash Failure

I use my four EX600-RT with Yongnuo YN-E3-RT remotes. The flash and the remotes all have both IR and radio synch, and so I can use one or the other. Looks like the newer EL-series flash are RF-only. I think it's a step in the wrong direction, when you lose redundancy. Canon flash failed to implement redundancy (with remotes) when they released the ST-E3-RT which has only radio, not IR. This explains why I went to the Yongnuo, which have been reliable since 2014. I also keep a single ST-E3-RT for backup.

Feb 22, 2024 at 07:36 AM

garyvot
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Canon Flash Failure

mheston wrote:
Hi,
I am spreading the news about the failure of communication between Canon "Sender" (Master) flashes and Canon "Receiver" (Slave) flashes. Since around 2020 the communication between Master and Slave flashes can be broken by a public radio wave of some kind. I’m not an EE, so I can’t tell you what the source of the problem is, but I can tell you that I have tested equipment all over the greater Seattle area, and about 80% of the time the Slaves disconnect from the Master in under 20 minutes of being turned on. The shortest time to disconnect happens in...Show more →

I just read through your posted link, and you sir, deserve a medal for your sleuthing and dedication to documenting this issue. Hopefully, someone at CPS is paying attention and feeding this back into the product development team.

Hopefully this can actually be addressed with product updates and does not require Canon to abandon the existing RT radio design.

Feb 22, 2024 at 08:16 AM

mheston
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Canon Flash Failure

Thanks for the comments. A very frustrating experience so far. I'm hoping to see a firmware update... or at the very least a redesign of products that don't suffer the same malady. I was very disappointed to see that current equipment suffer the same problem.

Feb 22, 2024 at 10:27 AM

mheston
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Canon Flash Failure

Great! Now I'll have to buy a Yongnuo YN-E3-RT remote and test it.

VFery frustrating that the equipment doesn't work as advertised.

Feb 22, 2024 at 10:30 AM

rscheffler
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Canon Flash Failure

jcolwell wrote:
I use my four EX600-RT with Yongnuo YN-E3-RT remotes. The flash and the remotes all have both IR and radio synch, and so I can use one or the other. Looks like the newer EL-series flash are RF-only. I think it's a step in the wrong direction, when you lose redundancy. Canon flash failed to implement redundancy (with remotes) when they released the ST-E3-RT which has only radio, not IR. This explains why I went to the Yongnuo, which have been reliable since 2014. I also keep a single ST-E3-RT for backup.

Have you been regularly using the YN-E3-RT with the 600 EX-RTs recently and not experiencing any connection drops? If this is the case then it's very interesting.

mheston wrote:
Great! Now I'll have to buy a Yongnuo YN-E3-RT remote and test it.

VFery frustrating that the equipment doesn't work as advertised.

I'm skeptical it will solve the problem based on my observations. The YN-E3-RT is a transmitter device and not a 'remote.' From my experience it's probably not the Canon transmitter side of the pair that is failing, rather it's the Canon hardware at the receiving side. In a set up with a YN-E3-RT transmitter and Canon hardware as the remotes, the problem will likely persist.

But maybe only one side of the sender/receiver pair needs to be non-Canon hardware... to cover the bases, test the YN-E3-RT and let us know!

Feb 22, 2024 at 10:46 AM

Jeff
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Canon Flash Failure

I long ago had to go back to shooting 580EXIIs in optical mode when shooting in my studio, infuriating that the 600EX-RTs will no longer work. One would hope Canon would address it (at least 'fess up to it!), but I'm guessing it's a hardware thing. I'd also think there'd be some sort of class action with the new range of flashes, I'm pissed enough as it is, can't imagine shelling out that kind of dough for the new ones only to have the exact same limitations.

And @mheston, great work, you should forward that to all the online outlets to get them to publish it (maybe even B&H, Adorama, etc.), perhaps inciting Canon to at least publicly address the widespread problem.

Mar 05, 2024 at 05:18 PM


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