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New Cosina Voigtländer 50/3.5 APO & 50/2.2 VM announcement

highdesertmesa
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p.9 #1 · p.9 #1 · New Cosina Voigtländer 50/3.5 APO & 50/2.2 VM announcement

Fred Miranda wrote:
I anticipate that many users will buy this lens after seeing the picture and try to collapse it.

I hope Cosina reconsiders and allows the lens to collapse in its production mechanics, although I realize the chances of this are slim. If not, they should be very explicit in stating that the lens does not collapse when advertised and sold.

All they have to do is remove the infinity hard stop and keep letting it spin inward

Feb 26, 2024 at 09:45 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.9 #2 · p.9 #2 · New Cosina Voigtländer 50/3.5 APO & 50/2.2 VM announcement

Desmolicious wrote:
I'll make that lens collapse, whether it wants to or not.

highdesertmesa wrote:
All they have to do is remove the infinity hard stop and keep letting it spin inward

Maybe @yukosteel will be able to figure this out!

Feb 26, 2024 at 09:51 PM

Henning
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p.9 #3 · p.9 #3 · New Cosina Voigtländer 50/3.5 APO & 50/2.2 VM announcement

It's been mentioned here and in most other write-ups/dicussions about VC lenses that they have no design philosophy for lens casings other than 'let's try everything', and they have never been on any straight and narrow path but now they seem to be floundering in a veritable swamp.

They intend to produce the 50/3.5 Apo in 4 flavours, none of which are logical or ergonomic. I'm interested in the lens, which I'm sure will be optically wonderful and on top of that small and light, but two versions make you want to take a hammer to collapse it like it obviously wishes, and the other two have a simple helicoid for focussing which leaves the aperture adjustment somewhere, but not generally in the same place, and does not allow for aperture adjustment after focussing. I know I am 'last century', but technology generally moves on, and I had certainly hoped that that sort of stupid lens focussing/aperture arrangement was left well back in the previous century.

So this lens clearly is meant not to be used, but to be put on a shelf and displayed after a short but annoying tour of duty to prove that the glass part at least was done properly.

There. I'm OK now and back to normal.

Feb 26, 2024 at 10:45 PM

highdesertmesa
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p.9 #4 · p.9 #4 · New Cosina Voigtländer 50/3.5 APO & 50/2.2 VM announcement

Feb 26, 2024 at 11:10 PM

rscheffler
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p.9 #5 · p.9 #5 · New Cosina Voigtländer 50/3.5 APO & 50/2.2 VM announcement

mboy wrote:
Can anyone who has seen the 50 apo f3.5 in person confirm if it does actually collapse? I'd be weird if it didn't right🤔

Juha Kannisto wrote:
I can confirm it doesn't collapse as I tried it at CP+ and I also confirmed from Cosina staff there that it doesn't collapse.

(They also said it in the product introduction video so there wasn't much doubt about it.)

Fred Miranda wrote:
I anticipate that many users will buy this lens after seeing the picture and try to collapse it.

I hope Cosina reconsiders and allows the lens to collapse in its production mechanics, although I realize the chances of this are slim. If not, they should be very explicit in stating that the lens does not collapse when advertised and sold.

Well, it being Cosina, they can just add a third version to the mix (collapsible, of course). And a fourth LTM version while they're at it.

Actually scratch that. Make the third version collapsible LTM and of course it can also be adapted to M mount.

Feb 26, 2024 at 11:20 PM

mboy
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p.9 #6 · p.9 #6 · New Cosina Voigtländer 50/3.5 APO & 50/2.2 VM announcement

Juha Kannisto wrote:
I can confirm it doesn't collapse as I tried it at CP+ and I also confirmed from Cosina staff there that it doesn't collapse.

(They also said it in the product introduction video so there wasn't much doubt about it.)

Thankyou for confirming. It's rather disappointing news. I wonder whats their rationale not to. My guess is when they tried the weird heliar design as before it'd probably wouldn't be appealing as a faux collapsible.
I would of gotten the lens if it was collapsible, but I'm having second thoughts. And the black collar was what I wanted in a collapsible too...😫 An APO collapsible would of been quite a feat of engineering for Cosina

Feb 27, 2024 at 02:25 AM

Juha Kannisto
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p.9 #7 · p.9 #7 · New Cosina Voigtländer 50/3.5 APO & 50/2.2 VM announcement

mboy wrote:
Thankyou for confirming. It's rather disappointing news. I wonder whats their rationale not to. My guess is when they tried the weird heliar design as before it'd probably wouldn't be appealing as a faux collapsible.
I would of gotten the lens if it was collapsible, but I'm having second thoughts. And the black collar was what I wanted in a collapsible too...😫 An APO collapsible would of been quite a feat of engineering for Cosina

In this DC Watch Impress article the rationale was written as below (auto-translated):
https://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/1571214.html
------------------
Type I has an appearance reminiscent of the retractable lenses of the screw mount era, and uses a double helicoid to extend it in a straight line. Some people have expressed regret that the barrel cannot actually be collapsed, but according to Cosina, when trying to improve the feel of collapsing, the air moves and there is a risk of dust being sucked into the camera, so they created a structure that does not allow it to collapse. This decision was probably made assuming that it would be used a lot with digital cameras. Leica also advises against collapsing classic lenses in the M Digital instruction manual.
------------------

I think Cosina's product introduction video also mentioned some reasons like above, especially about air moving and risk of getting dust into the camera... Based on that it seems that they were originally thinking of making it collapsible but then they changed their mind at some point in the lens design process.

Feb 27, 2024 at 03:07 AM

M_Wales
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p.9 #8 · p.9 #8 · New Cosina Voigtländer 50/3.5 APO & 50/2.2 VM announcement

In Japanese. Good looking lens..

Feb 27, 2024 at 08:59 AM

RexGig0
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p.9 #9 · p.9 #9 · New Cosina Voigtländer 50/3.5 APO & 50/2.2 VM announcement

Well, SLR shooters have long spoken of the “pumper zooms” that draw air, along with dust, into the cameras and lenses. A collapsible lens is not zooming, but, extending the lens would cause air to be drawn into the lens, either directly, or via the camera body. Simple high school physics, if not middle-school physical science.

Feb 27, 2024 at 09:24 AM

highdesertmesa
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p.9 #10 · p.9 #10 · New Cosina Voigtländer 50/3.5 APO & 50/2.2 VM announcement

Juha Kannisto wrote:
In this DC Watch Impress article the rationale was written as below (auto-translated):
https://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/1571214.html
------------------
Type I has an appearance reminiscent of the retractable lenses of the screw mount era, and uses a double helicoid to extend it in a straight line. Some people have expressed regret that the barrel cannot actually be collapsed, but according to Cosina, when trying to improve the feel of collapsing, the air moves and there is a risk of dust being sucked into the camera, so they created a structure that does not allow it to collapse. This decision was probably made assuming that it would...Show more →

The rationale from Cosina about why they didn’t make it collapsible makes my head hurt.

— The inside of my camera gets exposed to air (sometimes wind!) when I change lenses.
— I’m not going to sit there and “pump” the lens back and forth with it on the camera.
— Leica currently makes a collapsible 90 macro. Include whatever directions/warnings Leica does.
— A lens that you can only collapse when not on the camera is still useful since it’s smaller to store.

And doesn’t that narrow center column move in and out already when focusing? Doesn’t that have to be kept clean just like we would have to do for a collapsible? Why not seal that up so we don’t see it and have to keep it from collecting dust, dirt, and grime?

Why? Why? Why?

And why do I still want one?

Feb 27, 2024 at 09:49 AM

Fred Miranda
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p.9 #11 · p.9 #11 · New Cosina Voigtländer 50/3.5 APO & 50/2.2 VM announcement

highdesertmesa wrote:
The rationale from Cosina about why they didn’t make it collapsible makes my head hurt.

— The inside of my camera gets exposed to air (sometimes wind!) when I change lenses.
— I’m not going to sit there and “pump” the lens back and forth with it on the camera.
— Leica currently makes a collapsible 90 macro. Include whatever directions/warnings Leica does.
— A lens that you can only collapse when not on the camera is still useful since it’s smaller to store.

And doesn’t that narrow center column move in and out already when focusing? Doesn’t that have to be kept clean...Show more →

I've just shared feedback that many potential buyers are unhappy with this mechanical choice. It's probably too late to make any changes, but at least I made an effort.

I'm concerned that many people will see a picture of the lens, buy it thinking it collapses, and then return it when they realize it doesn't. Even I, who follow this closely, couldn't believe the lens doesn't actually collapse!

Feb 27, 2024 at 11:52 AM

highdesertmesa
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p.9 #12 · p.9 #12 · New Cosina Voigtländer 50/3.5 APO & 50/2.2 VM announcement

Fred Miranda wrote:
I've just shared feedback that many potential buyers are unhappy with this mechanical choice. It's probably too late to make any changes, but at least I made an effort.

Feb 27, 2024 at 11:57 AM

Fred Miranda
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p.9 #13 · p.9 #13 · New Cosina Voigtländer 50/3.5 APO & 50/2.2 VM announcement

I was informed that it was a tough decision, but ultimately, "the air moving in/out with by collapsing brought too much dust to the sensor."

So, it seems that Cosina's decision was to maintain the aesthetics of a collapsible lens without the actual functionality, to prevent the side effect of gathering sensor dust when collapsing/extending the lens while attached to a camera.

Feb 27, 2024 at 03:39 PM

oscartb
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p.9 #14 · p.9 #14 · New Cosina Voigtländer 50/3.5 APO & 50/2.2 VM announcement

Fred Miranda wrote:
I was informed that it was a tough decision, but ultimately, "the air moving in/out with by collapsing brought too much dust to the sensor."

So, it seems that Cosina's decision was to maintain the aesthetics of a collapsible lens without the actual functionality, to prevent the side effect of gathering sensor dust when collapsing/extending the lens while attached to a camera.

I wonder if that is why Leica discontinued the 50mm Elmar-M without replacement. On the other hand, the 90mm Macro-Elmar-M is still kicking around.

My personal theory is that there is a general stigma around "collapsible" - lot of rumors and ominous warnings floating around online about which collapsible lenses are or aren't safe on digital.

Hope Cosina changes their minds and do offer a collapsible, even if it comes as a version 3 or something.

Feb 27, 2024 at 04:17 PM

highdesertmesa
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p.9 #15 · p.9 #15 · New Cosina Voigtländer 50/3.5 APO & 50/2.2 VM announcement

Fred Miranda wrote:
I was informed that it was a tough decision, but ultimately, "the air moving in/out with by collapsing brought too much dust to the sensor."

So, it seems that Cosina's decision was to maintain the aesthetics of a collapsible lens without the actual functionality, to prevent the side effect of gathering sensor dust when collapsing/extending the lens while attached to a camera.

I seem to remember there was something said about "pressure" as well. I'm wondering if Cosina's tolerances are so tight (being an APO lens) that it was physically difficult to collapse and expand while on the camera. Imagine how unconformable that would be to hear air escaping or rushing into various places around the M body as you collapsed or expanded the lens on the M body, all while feeling resistance from the air pressure – like removing or replacing the cork stopper on a wine bottle. Perhaps Leica and LLL get around this with looser tolerances that allow the air to escape more easily from the bottom of the narrow neck of the lens itself as it is collapsed or expanded.

Edited on Feb 27, 2024 at 04:36 PM · View previous versions

Feb 27, 2024 at 04:31 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.9 #16 · p.9 #16 · New Cosina Voigtländer 50/3.5 APO & 50/2.2 VM announcement

oscartb wrote:
I wonder if that is why Leica discontinued the 50mm Elmar-M without replacement. On the other hand, the 90mm Macro-Elmar-M is still kicking around.

My personal theory is that there is a general stigma around "collapsible" - lot of rumors and ominous warnings floating around online about which collapsible lenses are or aren't safe on digital.

Hope Cosina changes their minds and do offer a collapsible, even if it comes as a version 3 or something.

Yes, collapsing lenses were more common during the film era, and while they can still be used on digital cameras, there are trade-offs. While you gain portability and storage benefits, there's a higher likelihood of dust reaching the sensor or internal chamber. This is a physics issue that applies to collapsing lenses from any brand. To reduce this issue, one could collapse or expand the lens outside the camera. However, most photographers would probably have the lens already collapsed when attached to the camera, expanding it for shooting and collapsing it again when storing or not shooting. So, it's indeed a real issue.

Feb 27, 2024 at 04:35 PM

highdesertmesa
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p.9 #17 · p.9 #17 · New Cosina Voigtländer 50/3.5 APO & 50/2.2 VM announcement

Fred Miranda wrote:
Yes, collapsing lenses were more common during the film era, and while they can still be used on digital cameras, there are trade-offs. While you gain portability and storage benefits, there's a higher likelihood of dust reaching the sensor or internal chamber. This is a physics issue that applies to collapsing lenses from any brand. To reduce this issue, one could collapse or expand the lens outside the camera. However, most photographers would probably have the lens already collapsed when attached to the camera, expanding it for shooting and collapsing it again when storing or not shooting. So, it's...Show more →

And there's also the chance of someone removing or inserting the lens with it collapsed and they do so at an angle that causes the rear of the lens to impact the sensor chamber.

Feb 27, 2024 at 04:40 PM

rscheffler
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p.9 #18 · p.9 #18 · New Cosina Voigtländer 50/3.5 APO & 50/2.2 VM announcement

^ A smart design would eliminate that possibility.

Fred Miranda wrote:
I was informed that it was a tough decision, but ultimately, "the air moving in/out with by collapsing brought too much dust to the sensor."

So, it seems that Cosina's decision was to maintain the aesthetics of a collapsible lens without the actual functionality, to prevent the side effect of gathering sensor dust when collapsing/extending the lens while attached to a camera.

To me that sounds more like an excuse for keeping manufacturing simpler and less expensive, realizing a greater profit margin at a specific price point.

Air displacement concerns doesn't appear to have dissuaded Leica from keeping the 90/4 Macro in the lineup.

Perhaps because it's a 90mm lens, I never leave it on the camera as the grab and go lens. Therefore whenever I collapse it, it's always off-camera. A 50 could be different, being a more generalist focal length, it could stay on the camera where being able to collapse it would have practical benefit. As a Leica M shooter I'm already used to the sensor collecting way more dust than my other system, so would gladly take the convenience of a collapsing design in exchange for the remote probability that some more dust might end up on the sensor.

Whatever the case, the ship has sailed and it's a non-collapsible design. I'm looking forward to seeing how it performs and will decide from there.

Feb 27, 2024 at 06:02 PM

Desmolicious
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p.9 #19 · p.9 #19 · New Cosina Voigtländer 50/3.5 APO & 50/2.2 VM announcement

Cosina has been very smart with the non collapsible collapsible lens.

You get to impress bystanders who think you are a man of means and exquisite taste when they see you leicaman-handle that lens.
But you never have to worry about it impacting your sensor or sucking in some Sony user's dust.

This is a gewinnen-gewinnen outcome.

Feb 27, 2024 at 08:14 PM

yukosteel
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p.9 #20 · p.9 #20 · New Cosina Voigtländer 50/3.5 APO & 50/2.2 VM announcement

Fred Miranda wrote:
Maybe @yukosteel@ will be able to figure this out!

I think removing infinity stop would lead to disconnect of focus thread because its distance is shorter than pseudo-collapsible tube.

If optical module can be separated from the main body tube, it would be possible to cut it off and replace with two 3d-printed tubes to allow safe collapsing by at least half length of that pseudo-collapsible cylinder. Of course it's a high labor effort. If I have such lens in hands I'd definitely explore possible options of such fun conversion.

Feb 27, 2024 at 09:32 PM

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