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What's with the Z8 prices

  
 
molson
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p.7 #1 · p.7 #1 · What's with the Z8 prices


snapsy wrote:
The goalpost mantra seems to be popular around here. Which goalpost did I move in my sidecar discussion with you?


Welcome to the Nikon forum...



Jan 31, 2024 at 10:24 PM
Gordon Lyons
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p.7 #2 · p.7 #2 · What's with the Z8 prices


indusphoto wrote:
The used prices seems to be falling as if there is no bottom.

Did nikon overestimate the demand or people just don't like it and are dumping it.



I don't see the prices any different compared to the other brands. Currently you see the Z8 selling for about $3000 on the B&S board. That's $1000 under the cost of new, which is a great deal in my opinion.

For comparison the Sony A7rV was released about 5 months before the Z8. 6 months ago the A7rV was selling on the B&S boards for about $3000. That's also $1000 under the cost of new, which is another great deal in my opinion. And today can be had for less.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1820807/0?keyword=Sony,A7rV#16316373

I don't think Nikon overestimated the demand nor do I see the prices falling any faster than others. Unfortunately these devises depreciate rather quick, for the hobbyist it sucks, for the pro it's a tax write off.



Feb 01, 2024 at 12:17 AM
jlafferty
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p.7 #3 · p.7 #3 · What's with the Z8 prices


Yo find me a $3000 Z8


Feb 10, 2024 at 10:26 PM
Alistair1
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p.7 #4 · p.7 #4 · What's with the Z8 prices



jlafferty wrote:
Yo find me a $3000 Z8

This is a great opportunity for Indusphoto to demonstrate whether his OP had any merit or whether it was nonsense.



Feb 11, 2024 at 04:44 PM
RoamingScott
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p.7 #5 · p.7 #5 · What's with the Z8 prices


Are you watching the buy/sell forum? Many for $3100-$3150 have sold recently.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1844916/0?keyword=Z8#16464914

jlafferty wrote:
Yo find me a $3000 Z8




Feb 11, 2024 at 08:09 PM
runamuck
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p.7 #6 · p.7 #6 · What's with the Z8 prices


Don't knock recalls. That get me a near new D800 during the left focus issue. The fire sale made it very affordable. I figured each shot the previous owner took cost Nikon $50. My camera was perfect. It even came with an extended warranty.


Feb 11, 2024 at 09:28 PM
1bwana1
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p.7 #7 · p.7 #7 · What's with the Z8 prices


Alistair1 wrote:
This is a great opportunity for Indusphoto to demonstrate whether his OP had any merit or whether it was nonsense.


If you search Sold items on Ebay you will see a number of Z8 cameras that sold for around $3,000 and a bit lower. So it is possible, maybe just takes a little effort. But yes, it appears it does happen with some frequency.




Feb 11, 2024 at 09:41 PM
CanadaMark
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p.7 #8 · p.7 #8 · What's with the Z8 prices


Ebay is the only place where we can actually confirm sale prices, save for the few clearly erroneous listings for a few hundred dollars from sellers with zero history and zero feedback.

Since November, I see 32 legit Z8 sold listings, at an average price of $3,379 USD. A couple sold with lens kits and I did not include those as there is no way to tell what the camera was worth. The Z8 is holding onto a used value of roughly 85% full MSRP on the largest used market sample. Two of those sold a hair below $3,000 ($2990 and $2955), one of which was a dealer demo, and the other one looks like it was genuinely a lucky find for someone.

Like literally any other product, if you get lucky or are willing to be patient, you will probably find one below market value. People are probably willing to sell for a couple hundred cheaper here on FM to make up for the much smaller customer base and what is likely less hassle.



Feb 12, 2024 at 04:50 PM
snapsy
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p.7 #9 · p.7 #9 · What's with the Z8 prices


CanadaMark wrote:
Ebay is the only place where we can actually confirm sale prices, save for the few clearly erroneous listings for a few hundred dollars from sellers with zero history and zero feedback.

Since November, I see 32 legit Z8 sold listings, at an average price of $3,379 USD. A couple sold with lens kits and I did not include those as there is no way to tell what the camera was worth. The Z8 is holding onto a used value of roughly 85% full MSRP on the largest used market sample. Two of those sold a hair below $3,000 ($2990 and
...Show more

eBay transaction costs are 13% and that is incorporated into the resale price of listings there. FM is unique in that the transaction costs are so low, and also why gear here sells for a commensurate discount to eBay prices.



Feb 12, 2024 at 05:10 PM
CanadaMark
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p.7 #10 · p.7 #10 · What's with the Z8 prices


snapsy wrote:
eBay transaction costs are 13% and that is incorporated into the resale price of listings there. FM is unique in that the transaction costs are so low, and also why gear here sells for a commensurate discount to eBay prices.


I don't think that's correct, unless maybe I am misunderstanding you.

The sold price is what a buyer actually paid, and the fees come out of the seller side based on that amount plus shipping/handling and tax. When you look up ebay Sold listings, those aren't the sale prices + 13%. What the seller ends up with after fees is irrelevant when looking at what a buyer is willing to pay. As I mentioned in my prior post, small private markets will always be cheaper a for a number of reasons not just because ebay exists, but it is a factor.

The point being made here is that by far the largest used market that we are able to actually confirm sale prices from shows that the Z8 is selling around 15% under full MSRP most of the time. There are outliers on both sides of that price.



Feb 12, 2024 at 05:37 PM
 


Search in Used Dept. 

snapsy
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p.7 #11 · p.7 #11 · What's with the Z8 prices


CanadaMark wrote:
I don't think that's correct, unless maybe I am misunderstanding you.

The sold price is what a buyer actually paid, and the fees come out of the seller side based on that amount plus shipping/handling and tax. When you look up ebay Sold listings, those aren't the sale prices + 13%. What the seller ends up with after fees is irrelevant when looking at what a buyer is willing to pay. As I mentioned in my prior post, small private markets will always be cheaper a for a number of reasons not just because ebay exists, but it is a factor.

The
...Show more

The net of what seller's receive is what the true market value of the camera is, not what a buyer is willing to pay, because no principal in those transactions actually gets that amount. For example if an eBay user buys a camera today and turns around and sells it tomorrow he'll get 13% less than what he paid today, so the market value was never 100% of what he paid. Same applies to real estate - if you can never net the notional value before commissions then that's not the actual value of the asset.



Feb 12, 2024 at 05:55 PM
groob
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p.7 #12 · p.7 #12 · What's with the Z8 prices




snapsy wrote:
The net of what seller's receive is what the true market value of the camera is, not what a buyer is willing to pay, because no principal in those transactions actually gets that amount. For example if an eBay user buys a camera today and turns around and sells it tomorrow he'll get 13% less than what he paid today, so the market value was never 100% of what he paid. Same applies to real estate - if you can never net the notional value before commissions then that's not the actual value of the asset.


Yes, thatís exactly how everyone thinks of the real estate market. My house is worth $X, which I calculated after subtracting sellerís and buyerís agent fees. 🙄



Feb 12, 2024 at 06:07 PM
huddy
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p.7 #13 · p.7 #13 · What's with the Z8 prices


CanadaMark wrote:
Ebay is the only place where we can actually confirm sale prices, save for the few clearly erroneous listings for a few hundred dollars from sellers with zero history and zero feedback.

Since November, I see 32 legit Z8 sold listings, at an average price of $3,379 USD. A couple sold with lens kits and I did not include those as there is no way to tell what the camera was worth. The Z8 is holding onto a used value of roughly 85% full MSRP on the largest used market sample. Two of those sold a hair below $3,000 ($2990 and
...Show more

Patience is absolutely a virtue when you can afford to wait (aka, not a business need or something you really want to take on a specific trip). The low transaction costs on FM also make it fine to often sell for10-15% below eBay or other online marketplace prices and walk away with the same net value to the seller. Such are the virtues of a generally high trust society/culture/group.



Feb 12, 2024 at 06:10 PM
huddy
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p.7 #14 · p.7 #14 · What's with the Z8 prices


snapsy wrote:
The net of what seller's receive is what the true market value of the camera is, not what a buyer is willing to pay, because no principal in those transactions actually gets that amount. For example if an eBay user buys a camera today and turns around and sells it tomorrow he'll get 13% less than what he paid today, so the market value was never 100% of what he paid. Same applies to real estate - if you can never net the notional value before commissions then that's not the actual value of the asset.


I wish this is how tax assessment of property in Texas worked...



Feb 12, 2024 at 06:11 PM
snapsy
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p.7 #15 · p.7 #15 · What's with the Z8 prices


groob wrote:
Yes, thatís exactly how everyone thinks of the real estate market. My house is worth $X, which I calculated after subtracting sellerís and buyerís agent fees. 🙄


Whether or not homeowners think of it in those terms doesn't change the reality of their situation. They'll certainly think of it when it comes time to sell and they see their settlement sheet. It's no different than any other asset - you can't exclude the costs of realizing the value of an asset from the value of that asset.

If I own an oil field with 1M barrels of proven reserves and the market price is $80/barrel, do I own $80M in oil if it costs $50/barrel to get the stuff out of the ground and process it to the point of getting $80/barrel?



Feb 12, 2024 at 06:18 PM
CanadaMark
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p.7 #16 · p.7 #16 · What's with the Z8 prices


snapsy wrote:
The net of what seller's receive is what the true market value of the camera is, not what a buyer is willing to pay, because no principal in those transactions actually gets that amount. For example if an eBay user buys a camera today and turns around and sells it tomorrow he'll get 13% less than what he paid today, so the market value was never 100% of what he paid. Same applies to real estate - if you can never net the notional value before commissions then that's not the actual value of the asset.


What buyers are willing to pay is the market price, period. What the seller nets is completely irrelevant and of no concern to the buyer for a transaction in the context of what is being discussed here. If the seller chooses an advertising platform that costs more to use, perhaps in return for greater exposure, that is a separate transaction, and what a buyer is willing to pay does not magically change. On that same note, what the buyer does with the product after it's sold is also irrelevant to the seller.

If I am out shopping for a widget with a going rate of $1000, and if I have a choice to buy the exact same widget from two different sellers, one of which who paid more to get that widget to market or has higher overhead costs, it still costs me (the buyer) $1000 regardless of who gets that money or how it's distributed after its paid.

Another way to look at it - let's say there's two Z8's for sale, both sell for the same price of say $3100. One customer drove 2 hours to get it, the other lived next door to the seller. The market price doesn't magically change because the one customer had to factor the cost of gas, vehicle wear & tear, their time, etc. and nor is that the seller's problem.

I don't think anybody is looking at the used camera market in the way you describe where every imaginable unknown cost must somehow be taken into consideration to determine the 'real' value. In the context of what is being discussed here, the market price is what most people are willing to pay - simple as that. The amount net to the seller will vary depending on a huge variety of unknown factors. If you're lucky or patient you'll probably pay a little less, if you are not, you will probably pay a little more.



Feb 12, 2024 at 06:51 PM
snapsy
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p.7 #17 · p.7 #17 · What's with the Z8 prices


CanadaMark wrote:
What buyers are willing to pay is the market price, period. What the seller nets is completely irrelevant and of no concern to the buyer for a transaction in the context of what is being discussed here. If the seller chooses an advertising platform that costs more to use, perhaps in return for greater exposure, that is a separate transaction, and what a buyer is willing to pay does not magically change. On that same note, what the buyer does with the product after it's sold is also irrelevant to the seller.

If I am out shopping for a widget with
...Show more

In reference to your theoretical, I agree, the individual sellers' additional cost structure doesn't affect the resale value of the camera, but that's in addition to the structural transaction costs we've been discussing, in this case eBay, that they all have to pay. Don't want to incur those costs? Sell here on FM, for 13% less. Nets the same amount, thus that is the true resale value of the camera.



Feb 12, 2024 at 06:57 PM
1bwana1
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p.7 #18 · p.7 #18 · What's with the Z8 prices


In any case the poster who said that a Z8 can be bought for $3,000 is correct. I think sellers can find a way to realize more however.

I think it is also correct to say that the Z8 is within the normal depreciation range for similar cameras. Considering its position in camera lifecycles, there is no evidence that leads me to believe that it is holding value better than most, not losing value faster than most. From my perspective it is a great product that is behaving normality in the resale market.



Feb 12, 2024 at 07:13 PM
groob
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p.7 #19 · p.7 #19 · What's with the Z8 prices


This thread began with Snapsy delivering an unbelievable Motte and Bailey, and now heís changed the definition of market price because heís so committed to the bit. I love the internet.


Feb 12, 2024 at 07:35 PM
snapsy
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p.7 #20 · p.7 #20 · What's with the Z8 prices


groob wrote:
This thread began with Snapsy delivering an unbelievable Motte and Bailey, and now heís changed the definition of market price because heís so committed to the bit. I love the internet.


My very first post in this thread used the term value, not price. How is that me changing the definition of market price?



Feb 12, 2024 at 08:13 PM
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