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What's with the Z8 prices

  
 
RoamingScott
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p.6 #1 · p.6 #1 · What's with the Z8 prices


snapsy wrote:
You believe someone who's in the market for a used $4k prosumer camera wouldn't be aware of its two widely-reported service advisories? A busy dentist maybe?


Very very few consumers spend their time reading forum posts or rumor sites, which are the only places you'd hear about it with any frequency.



Jan 31, 2024 at 01:23 PM
CanadaMark
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p.6 #2 · p.6 #2 · What's with the Z8 prices


snapsy wrote:
You believe someone who's in the market for a used $4k prosumer camera wouldn't be aware of its two widely-reported service advisories? A busy dentist maybe?


Yes I believe it because I have witnessed it many times first hand by talking to actual Z8 owners. I think its easy to over-estimate the research people do outside of enthusiast crowds participating on forums, which is the vast majority of customers. People will buy a $30K++ vehicle after doing little to no research, it's not unreasonable at all to think many would do the same for a product an order of magnitude cheaper.

The other thing is that the issues were extremely minor and seemingly affected almost nobody. Nikon reps were telling people to not even bother sending their bodies in if they were not having the issue(s), as both were very easy to identify at home. I think I have seen one person on FM who was confirmed to have experienced one of the issues, and that is from a group that is actively checking for them. One rep told me that all Nikon does is tug on the straps when you send your camera in to check for the lug pins - obviously I can't verify that, but that's what he told me.

Look at something like the Canon R7, it has pretty severe AF issues that have been widely documented, no service advisory (other brands seem to prefer to stay quiet and use the warranty system), and no major hit to its resale value. Either people aren't doing research, or they don't care. From what I have seen, outside of enthusiast crowds, the extent of most people's research is reading a few generic reviews online that regurgitate spec sheets.

Nikon's approach is to put out an advisory for every single little thing, regardless of severity. This is good for the consumer because it eliminates any barriers if you are one of the unlucky few with an issue, but it has negative PR implications. As a consumer, I much prefer that method to the alternative of having to convince the manufacturer you have an issue in the first place.



Jan 31, 2024 at 01:26 PM
snapsy
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p.6 #3 · p.6 #3 · What's with the Z8 prices


CanadaMark wrote:
Yes I believe it because I have witnessed it many times first hand by talking to actual Z8 owners. I think its easy to over-estimate the research people do outside of enthusiast crowds participating on forums, which is the vast majority of customers. People will buy a $30K++ vehicle after doing little to no research, it's not unreasonable at all to think many would do the same for a product an order of magnitude cheaper.

The other thing is that the issues were extremely minor and seemingly affected almost nobody. Nikon reps were telling people to not even bother sending
...Show more

How many of those Z8 owners bought their cameras used, since that's the group we're talking about who would even be aware of the camera's resale value.




Jan 31, 2024 at 01:53 PM
CanadaMark
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p.6 #4 · p.6 #4 · What's with the Z8 prices


snapsy wrote:
How many of those Z8 owners bought their cameras used, since that's the group we're talking about who would even be aware of the camera's resale value.



Purchased new, but after the advisories were out. I don't see what the difference is - if anything that makes it 'worse' as they paid full MSRP and also had the option to go used. Those same people wouldn't all of a sudden be doing a bunch of research if they opted to buy used vs new. You can move the goalposts as much as you want, I think it's very difficult to argue that the average person does a great deal of pre-purchase research outside of the enthusiast crowd minority.

Look at other products with dramatically higher purchase prices where the consumer has far more to lose - most vehicles have several service advisories throughout their lifespan for minor issues. Those have no material affect on resale value despite the stakes being much higher, and once again, the average customer is not even aware of it unless the dealership tells them for the same reasons. At most, a savvy used buyer who is aware of the advisory will just want to know if the advisory has been completed or not.

If you want to look at it the other way around, those people who do go through extensive pre-purchase research (new or used) would then learn that the issues were both very rare and very minor. Not only that, you are protected for the life of the camera with regards to those issues. So I don't see any scenario where it would have a significant affect on resale value. Nearly every used Z8 I can find that has an actual verified sale price is 12-15% off MSRP. I personally would never buy a used product for such a small discount, but it probably has at least something to do with the demand making it hard to keep stock in some regions.



Jan 31, 2024 at 02:15 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.6 #5 · p.6 #5 · What's with the Z8 prices


I don't know if this has been discussed but I think a big reason the prices of used Z8s are what they are is the price that Nikon sets for refurbs of this camera. If I remember rightly, not too long ago, Nikon was offering official Z8 refurbs for $3,200, I believe, which makes it pretty hard to sell a used camera from just another consumer for anything more than $3,000. Every brand has its reason for reduction in prices. Sony cameras sell used at lower rates because of education discounts, for example. With Nikon a big reason used prices drop is that Nikon themselves offer up to 20% off the retail price for refurbs and this seems to be true across a wide range of their cameras and lenses.


Jan 31, 2024 at 02:28 PM
snapsy
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p.6 #6 · p.6 #6 · What's with the Z8 prices


CanadaMark wrote:
Purchased new, but after the advisories were out. I don't see what the difference is - if anything that makes it 'worse' as they paid full MSRP and also had the option to go used. Those same people wouldn't all of a sudden be doing a bunch of research if they opted to buy used vs new. You can move the goalposts as much as you want, I think it's very difficult to argue that the average person does a great deal of pre-purchase research outside of the enthusiast crowd minority.

Look at other products with dramatically higher purchase prices
...Show more

To see the difference we have to step back to the start of our conversion, where you wrote:

"I sincerely doubt a couple of minor voluntary service advisories that affected almost nobody are impacting Z8 resale in any meaningful way."

To which I responded:

"You believe someone who's in the market for a used $4k prosumer camera wouldn't be aware of its two widely-reported service advisories?"

To which you said:

"Yes I believe it because I have witnessed it many times first hand by talking to actual Z8 owners."

To which I responded:

"How many of those Z8 owners bought their cameras used, since that's the group we're talking about who would even be aware of the camera's resale value."

To which you've just responded:

"Purchased new, but after the advisories were out. I don't see what the difference is"

It's the buyers of used Z8 bodies which establish the resale value. That's what the difference is. They're the ones who would be aware of what affects the value, including the inconvenience of two recalls and any apprehensions about owning a body that's already been serviced, and so I believe with absolute certainty the recalls have affected the resale value. You can see it in the B+S listings here, with responses such as "Affected by recall?", "Has it been serviced under the recall?", etc...



Jan 31, 2024 at 03:55 PM
RoamingScott
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p.6 #7 · p.6 #7 · What's with the Z8 prices


snapsy wrote:
You can see it in the B+S listings here, with responses such as "Affected by recall?", "Has it been serviced under the recall?", etc...


Those are the same mental titans that will, in the same breath, ask how many "actuations" on a shutterless camera.



Jan 31, 2024 at 03:59 PM
snapsy
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p.6 #8 · p.6 #8 · What's with the Z8 prices


RoamingScott wrote:
Those are the same mental titans that will, in the same breath, ask how many "actuations" on a shutterless camera.


Absent other information about the history and use of the camera, actuations represent a rough proxy of how much use the camera has seen, which has implications beyond just wear on a mechanical shutter.



Jan 31, 2024 at 04:01 PM
RoamingScott
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p.6 #9 · p.6 #9 · What's with the Z8 prices


snapsy wrote:
Absent other information about the history and use of the camera, actuations represent a rough proxy of how much use the camera has seen, which has implications beyond just wear on a mechanical shutter.


Except it doesn't, at all, on a camera that can pop off 10k shots in an hour. It's a meaningless stat without a physical shutter, but of course you'd take that stance



Jan 31, 2024 at 04:05 PM
sjms
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p.6 #10 · p.6 #10 · What's with the Z8 prices


RoamingScott wrote:
Those are the same mental titans that will, in the same breath, ask how many "actuations" on a shutterless camera.


that info is available from the camera. it may not be as you referred to as physical movement. but as you did put it, it was an actuation and a usage data point for whatever value/reference.

Edited on Feb 01, 2024 at 10:34 AM · View previous versions



Jan 31, 2024 at 04:08 PM
 


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snapsy
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p.6 #11 · p.6 #11 · What's with the Z8 prices


RoamingScott wrote:
Except it doesn't, at all, on a camera that can pop off 10k shots in an hour. It's a meaningless stat without a physical shutter, but of course you'd take that stance


You're right, I do take the stance that a camera with 1,000 actuations is much more likely to have seen less use than a camera with 80,000 actuations, completely mindful that there are outlier situations where the opposite may be true but with logic and reason dictating the probability that it isn't.



Jan 31, 2024 at 04:09 PM
CanadaMark
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p.6 #12 · p.6 #12 · What's with the Z8 prices


I give up - @RoamingScott I think we're wasting our time here

It's difficult to have a normal discussion with cherry picked data and ever widening goalposts.

Fact of the matter seems to be that like every other used product, the Z8 has a rough price range that is in line with other used cameras of similar vintage. As for used sales that we can actually verify what the buyer is paying, that seems to be about 15% below MSRP in most cases. You will always be able to find outliers and Nikon themselves occasionally offers refurbs at quite attractive prices.



Jan 31, 2024 at 06:49 PM
groob
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p.6 #13 · p.6 #13 · What's with the Z8 prices




Steve Spencer wrote:
I don't know if this has been discussed but I think a big reason the prices of used Z8s are what they are is the price that Nikon sets for refurbs of this camera. If I remember rightly, not too long ago, Nikon was offering official Z8 refurbs for $3,200, I believe, which makes it pretty hard to sell a used camera from just another consumer for anything more than $3,000. Every brand has its reason for reduction in prices. Sony cameras sell used at lower rates because of education discounts, for example. With Nikon a big reason used
...Show more

Yes, I brought this up earlier. Nikonís refurb price is almost certainly what has set the market. Current refurb price of a Z8 is $3500. Itís all but a tautology that private sales of $3k are derivative of the refurb price.



Jan 31, 2024 at 06:51 PM
snapsy
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p.6 #14 · p.6 #14 · What's with the Z8 prices


CanadaMark wrote:
I give up - @RoamingScott@ I think we're wasting our time here

It's difficult to have a normal discussion with cherry picked data and ever widening goalposts.

Fact of the matter seems to be that like every other used product, the Z8 has a rough price range that is in line with other used cameras of similar vintage. As for used sales that we can actually verify what the buyer is paying, that seems to be about 15% below MSRP in most cases. You will always be able to find outliers and Nikon themselves occasionally offers refurbs at quite attractive
...Show more

The goalpost mantra seems to be popular around here. Which goalpost did I move in my sidecar discussion with you?



Jan 31, 2024 at 06:54 PM
groob
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p.6 #15 · p.6 #15 · What's with the Z8 prices




CanadaMark wrote:
I give up - @RoamingScott@ I think we're wasting our time here

It's difficult to have a normal discussion with cherry picked data and ever widening goalposts.

Fact of the matter seems to be that like every other used product, the Z8 has a rough price range that is in line with other used cameras of similar vintage. As for used sales that we can actually verify what the buyer is paying, that seems to be about 15% below MSRP in most cases. You will always be able to find outliers and Nikon themselves occasionally offers refurbs at quite attractive
...Show more

Yeah, no need to bang your head against the wall anymore. As youíve noted several times, one should assume vast ignorance when it comes to the general publicís buying habits. Thatís not a new or controversial opinion.



Jan 31, 2024 at 06:55 PM
snapsy
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p.6 #16 · p.6 #16 · What's with the Z8 prices


groob wrote:
Yes, I brought this up earlier. Nikonís refurb price is almost certainly what has set the market. Current refurb price of a Z8 is $3500. Itís all but a tautology that private sales of $3k are derivative of the refurb price.


Used Z8 prices dropped close to $3000 well before Nikon started offering their deeply-discounted refurb Z8 bodies.



Jan 31, 2024 at 07:17 PM
groob
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p.6 #17 · p.6 #17 · What's with the Z8 prices




snapsy wrote:
Used Z8 prices dropped close to $3000 well before Nikon started offering their deeply-discounted refurb Z8 bodies.


Assuming thatís true, which it probably isnít, it actually supports my argument, not yours. The fact that, according to you, a Z8ís used price has stayed flat for a long period of time shows that there is consistent demand.



Jan 31, 2024 at 08:41 PM
RoamingScott
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p.6 #18 · p.6 #18 · What's with the Z8 prices


So the 100+ post conclusion is: the Z8 is a far better investment and ROI when bought used today than used offerings from other competitors.

Seems like a feather in the cap for Nikon shooters looking to upgrade.



Jan 31, 2024 at 08:47 PM
JustShootMe
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p.6 #19 · p.6 #19 · What's with the Z8 prices


There are so many factors here ,

*itís a new / old camera
* z6iii is on the horizon
* Nikon refurb pricing
* it shoots a billion frames a second, and shutter count is somehow still a measure of use (why)
* itís physically larger than a lot of people want
* the economy looks good on paper, but the squeeze is on
* some people just donít need that much camera

Regardless , they sell , so somebody wants them . Who cares how much it dropped , itís not an investment for future resale , if you use it , itís now used Ö and should be cheaper than what you can purchase from the manufacturer refurb or not.



Jan 31, 2024 at 08:49 PM
snapsy
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p.6 #20 · p.6 #20 · What's with the Z8 prices


groob wrote:
Assuming thatís true, which it probably isnít, it actually supports my argument, not yours. The fact that, according to you, a Z8ís used price has stayed flat for a long period of time shows that there is consistent demand.


The Z8 $3200 refurb sale started 01/05/24 (source)

Lowest B+S Z8 list prices predating refurb sale:
12/01/23 $3050 https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1834920/
12/06/23 $3150 https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1835585/
12/11/23 $3050 https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1836253/
12/11/23 $2950 https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1836312/
12/18/23 $2999 https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1837300/

Where did I write the Z8's used price has been flat for a long time?



Jan 31, 2024 at 09:02 PM
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