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What's with the Z8 prices

snapsy
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p.5 #1 · p.5 #1 · What's with the Z8 prices

Jman13 wrote:
I’ve now posted multiple examples at the same interval, all showing similar depreciation. With multiple manufacturers.

And I described why each of those examples as not comparable.

Jan 30, 2024 at 10:31 PM

Jman13
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p.5 #2 · p.5 #2 · What's with the Z8 prices

snapsy wrote:
And I described why each of those examples as not comparable.

So, no Sony body can be used by your metric.The R6 II (which I provided a link showing it was selling at that depreciation 8 months after release) doesn’t count for some unknown reason, the other cameras just aren’t expensive enough…. You’re not arguing in good faith, so I’m tapping out of this.

Jan 30, 2024 at 10:36 PM

snapsy
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p.5 #3 · p.5 #3 · What's with the Z8 prices

Jman13 wrote:
So, no Sony body can be used by your metric.The R6 II (which I provided a link showing it was selling at that depreciation 8 months after release) doesn’t count for some unknown reason, the other cameras just aren’t expensive enough…. You’re not arguing in good faith.

Sony's prices go down vs MSRP almost immediately due to the EDU discounts. Sony doesn't impose any limit on EDU supply so I don't see how those can be compared.

The R6 II you linked was a distressed sale - FM'er listed health reasons in his B+S post. Also, don't see any feedback for the transaction so it's not clear if it actually exchanged hands. Plus it looks like he bought a 24-105 RF lens after that posting in this listing, and his profile still shows an R6 II, so he might still have the body.

If you can find other listings for the R6 II at that price and in that time range then I'll definitely agree with your assertion that the R6 II depreciated at the same rate as the Z8.

No bad faith on my part - I just disagree with what's being expressed.

Jan 30, 2024 at 10:53 PM

groob
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p.5 #4 · p.5 #4 · What's with the Z8 prices

Good lord, @snapsy, you have moved the goalposts several football fields by now. You must own an excavator.

Jan 31, 2024 at 08:04 AM

snapsy
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p.5 #5 · p.5 #5 · What's with the Z8 prices

groob wrote:
Good lord, @snapsy@, you have moved the goalposts several football fields by now. You must own an excavator.

Comparisons were being made to cameras that have been out for twice as long as the Z8 and claiming it's the same thing. The goal posts started in the wrong position.

Jan 31, 2024 at 08:10 AM

RoamingScott
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p.5 #6 · p.5 #6 · What's with the Z8 prices

Dumb threads getting dumber with every post: it’s what we do here.

Jan 31, 2024 at 08:11 AM

groob
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p.5 #7 · p.5 #7 · What's with the Z8 prices

Ha. Dude, Jman provided several examples fitting your subjective, arbitrary metrics. And, guess what, here's another one: A7RVs were being sold for $3,100 six months after introduction. You're just lucky that FM doesn't keep data going back to the R5 release date.

But even concerning your metrics, they're, again, completely arbitrary and meaningless. I realize that you believe they are convincing, but they're not. Arguing that used consumer electronics do not drop ~25% in value after release is a fool's errand.

Jan 31, 2024 at 08:18 AM

groob
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p.5 #8 · p.5 #8 · What's with the Z8 prices

RoamingScott wrote:
Dumb threads getting dumber with every post: it’s what we do here.

This one isn't hall of fame level for Fred Miranda, but we just might get there!

Jan 31, 2024 at 08:19 AM

snapsy
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p.5 #9 · p.5 #9 · What's with the Z8 prices

groob wrote:
Ha. Dude, Jman provided several examples fitting your subjective, arbitrary metrics. And, guess what, here's another one: A7RVs were being sold for $3,100 six months after introduction. You're just lucky that FM doesn't keep data going back to the R5 release date.

But even concerning your metrics, they're, again, completely arbitrary and meaningless. I realize that you believe they are convincing, but they're not. Arguing that used consumer electronics do not drop ~25% in value after release is a fool's errand.

I didn't argue values don't drop after release. I argued prosumer camera prices don't depreciate 25% in six months. The only counter-examples given were an entry level camera, a camera that has wide availability at lower EDU prices, and a single distressed sale that looks like didn't actually change hands. Whether or not you're convinced in the face of objective information is not something in my control.

Jan 31, 2024 at 08:24 AM

groob
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p.5 #10 · p.5 #10 · What's with the Z8 prices

snapsy wrote:
I didn't argue values don't drop after release. I argued prosumer camera prices don't depreciate 25% in six months. The only counter-examples given were an entry level camera, a camera that has wide availability at lower EDU prices, and a single distressed sale that looks like didn't actually change hands. Whether or not you're convinced in the face of objective information is not something in my control.

Literally just cited to A7RV sales. Can't be more apples-to-apples than that.

Jan 31, 2024 at 09:01 AM

snapsy
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p.5 #11 · p.5 #11 · What's with the Z8 prices

groob wrote:
Literally just cited to A7RV sales. Can't be more apples-to-apples than that.

EDU pricing.

At the risk of being accused of moving the goal posts again, how about we eliminate the confounders and focus on just Nikon, since the contingent who are most interested in this topic are Nikon users, most of which are presumably long-time Nikon shooters who have comparable experience with depreciation on past prosumer Nikon bodies. In other words, those who wouldn't especially find comfort in the EDU machinations of competing systems.

The only body I can recollect that suffered such a steep drop in value is the D600, which arguably isn't a prosumer body but which is notable for being nearly unsellable until Nikon found religion and stopped their plausible deniability campaign against the shutter oil issue. And even after the fix the body never really recovered in value. There is some similarity to the Z8 - its issued were fixed quickly but put a pall over the resale of all early-release bodies.

Jan 31, 2024 at 09:32 AM

RoamingScott
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p.5 #12 · p.5 #12 · What's with the Z8 prices

What is the point of all of this rambling?

Everyone agrees that consumer electronics depreciate fast after launch.

Everyone but one agrees that the Z8 pricing trends are largely in line with the rest of the market.

Did a Z8 kick your dog?

Jan 31, 2024 at 09:39 AM

snapsy
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p.5 #13 · p.5 #13 · What's with the Z8 prices

RoamingScott wrote:
What is the point of all of this rambling?

Everyone agrees that consumer electronics depreciate fast after launch.

Everyone but one agrees that the Z8 pricing trends are largely in line with the rest of the market.

Did a Z8 kick your dog?

Was there a poll I missed? Or are we taking a sample of three to make that determination?

If you consider this rambling perhaps it's because it's not a topic you're interested in. When I find myself in that situation I stop reading the thread, and certainly stop posting to it.

Jan 31, 2024 at 09:49 AM

RoamingScott
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p.5 #14 · p.5 #14 · What's with the Z8 prices

snapsy wrote:
Was there a poll I missed? Or are we taking a sample of three to make that determination?

If you consider this rambling perhaps it's because it's not a topic you're interested in. When I find myself in that situation I stop reading the thread, and certainly stop posting to it.

I'm largely interested in the economics of the camera industry. If you think that a post like this will discourage me from posting in whatever thread I want, you don't pay enough attention

Jan 31, 2024 at 09:52 AM

snapsy
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p.5 #15 · p.5 #15 · What's with the Z8 prices

RoamingScott wrote:
I'm largely interested in the economics of the camera industry. If you think that a post like this will discourage me from posting in whatever thread I want, you don't pay enough attention

I'm tired of reading FUD. It wastes space, it wastes people's attention, it perpetuates mindless narratives. So far, your posting on this subject is pure FUD with lots of data in this thread to back that up. So again, what are you trying to prove here? Try answering the question this time instead of trying to police me.

My remark wasn't an attempt to discourage your participation. I just get confused about all the meta-commenting on subjects that have nothing to do with the subject, which to me speaks to disinterest in the subject but perhaps I'm misreading the situation. Meta-commentary references like "FUD" and "manufactured outrage" for a seemingly straightforward topic also puzzle me.

Jan 31, 2024 at 09:57 AM

groob
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p.5 #16 · p.5 #16 · What's with the Z8 prices

snapsy wrote:
EDU pricing.

At the risk of being accused of moving the goal posts again, how about we eliminate the confounders and focus on just Nikon, since the contingent who are most interested in this topic are Nikon users, most of which are presumably long-time Nikon shooters who have comparable experience with depreciation on past prosumer Nikon bodies. In other words, those who wouldn't especially find comfort in the EDU machinations of competing systems.

The only body I can recollect that suffered such a steep drop in value is the D600, which arguably isn't a prosumer body but which is notable for being...Show more →

This has to be the cleanest example of a Motte and Bailey I have ever seen. It should be taught in universities.

Snapsy: prosumer cameras don't drop 25% in value in 6 months. Well, I'm not talking about *those* prosumer cameras that objective data show dropped 25-30% in 6-8 months, and this other camera doesn't fit *my* subjective definition of a prosumer camera. Ok, well, let's just ignore evidence from all other brands and focus on only *this* brand of camera. Now, which one can you point to?!

A work of art.

Jan 31, 2024 at 10:03 AM

snapsy
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p.5 #17 · p.5 #17 · What's with the Z8 prices

groob wrote:
This has to be the cleanest example of a Motte and Bailey I have ever seen. It should be taught in universities.

Snapsy: prosumer cameras don't drop 25% in value in 6 months. Well, I'm not talking about *those* prosumer cameras that objective data show dropped 25-30% in 6-8 months, and this other camera doesn't fit *my* subjective definition of a prosumer camera. Ok, well, let's just ignore evidence from all other brands and focus on only *this* brand of camera. Now, which one can you point to?!

A work of art.

I don't recall similar commentary from you for the thread comments that compared the Z8 to bodies out twice as long. Yet I appear to be the one that's subjective in my position.

Jan 31, 2024 at 10:10 AM

CanadaMark
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p.5 #18 · p.5 #18 · What's with the Z8 prices

Z8's are still full MSRP here in Canada (outside of cyclical promotions), and they only recently came back in stock after selling out once again in December.

Expensive consumer electronics are one of the worst investments you can make if you're worried about depreciation, nothing new there. Most of us enthusiasts are also early adopters which means we get hit the hardest, but we get to enjoy it for longer.

I sincerely doubt a couple of minor voluntary service advisories that affected almost nobody are impacting Z8 resale in any meaningful way. The average buyer probably doesn't even know about them. Nothing looks out of the ordinary to me with regards to used pricing - the majority of recent eBay sold listings for used Z8's are about 12%-15% below full MSRP (~$3,400-$3,500 USD). There a couple for sale locally near me that are also priced 15% below the Canadian MSRP. At the very least they need to be priced low enough such that perspective buyers don't just opt to buy a new one for hardly any more money.

Jan 31, 2024 at 11:00 AM

Jepser
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p.5 #19 · p.5 #19 · What's with the Z8 prices

This thread is strange...

With every hyped new camera there are some that buys it thinking it will be their final perfect camera. At the same time they cant stop looking for newer or better. It's like online dating. And like online dating, somtimes you trade down because you cant stop the game...

All digital equipment loses value when you walk out of the store, like a new car. 25% is nothing to get surprised about unlessnew items are in short stock. I would never buy a second hand digital camera that isnt 25% cheaper than a new.

Some of you prefer the Z8 and some the Z9, that's nice to know, but nothing to argue about. I even prefer the Zf

Jan 31, 2024 at 11:01 AM

snapsy
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p.5 #20 · p.5 #20 · What's with the Z8 prices

CanadaMark wrote:
Z8's are still full MSRP here in Canada (outside of cyclical promotions), and they only recently came back in stock after selling out once again in December.

Expensive consumer electronics are one of the worst investments you can make if you're worried about depreciation, nothing new there. Most of us enthusiasts are also early adopters which means we get hit the hardest, but we get to enjoy it for longer.

I sincerely doubt a couple of minor voluntary service advisories that affected almost nobody are impacting Z8 resale in any meaningful way. The average buyer probably doesn't even know about them. Nothing...Show more →

You believe someone who's in the market for a used $4k prosumer camera wouldn't be aware of its two widely-reported service advisories? A busy dentist maybe?

Jan 31, 2024 at 11:58 AM

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