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When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?

  
 
wolfloid
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p.8 #1 · p.8 #1 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


The problem with shooting M lenses on an APSC Fuji is that most existing M lenses just don’t fit in the sort of range we are used do when magnified by the 1.5 x FOV factor.

A 35 lux becomes a 50/2 (when accounting for possible focus separation potential) - that’s ok, but the final FOV and speed does not reflect the price.

A 28/2 becomes a 40/2.8 - boring. A 28/1.4/1.5 becomes a 40/2 - interesting but, with the adapter, huge.

Same for the 24/1.4 - it becomes a 35/2, but huge.

And how do you get a fast 24mm?

It’s all pretty uninspiring, until you remember Fuji makes some fine autofocus lenses, and you remember that you can use those instead, with a much smaller/lighter form factor and for a much lower price.



Feb 22, 2024 at 09:23 AM
retrofocus
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p.8 #2 · p.8 #2 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


wolfloid wrote:
The problem with shooting M lenses on an APSC Fuji is that most existing M lenses just don’t fit in the sort of range we are used do when magnified by the 1.5 x FOV factor.

A 35 lux becomes a 50/2 (when accounting for possible focus separation potential) - that’s ok, but the final FOV and speed does not reflect the price.

A 28/2 becomes a 40/2.8 - boring. A 28/1.4/1.5 becomes a 40/2 - interesting but, with the adapter, huge.

Same for the 24/1.4 - it becomes a 35/2, but huge.

And how do you get a fast 24mm?

It’s all pretty uninspiring,
...Show more

+1. Only reasons what keeps cropped sensor cameras alive is the smaller form factor better for travel for example and of course lower price for cropped sensor format gear.



Feb 22, 2024 at 09:44 AM
mgscheu
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p.8 #3 · p.8 #3 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


wolfloid wrote:
A 35 lux becomes a 50/2 (when accounting for possible focus separation potential) - that’s ok, but the final FOV and speed does not reflect the price.

A 28/2 becomes a 40/2.8 - boring. A 28/1.4/1.5 becomes a 40/2 - interesting but, with the adapter, huge.

Same for the 24/1.4 - it becomes a 35/2, but huge.



Though the lenses still have the same physical focal length and physical aperture size, so the f-stops are still the same. f/2 is still f/2, etc. The light per unit area, on the sensor, is the same.



Feb 22, 2024 at 09:49 AM
retrofocus
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p.8 #4 · p.8 #4 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


mgscheu wrote:
Though the lenses still have the same physical focal length and physical aperture size, so the f-stops are still the same. f/2 is still f/2, etc. The light per unit area, on the sensor, is the same.


Correct but practically the above described change in depth of field caused by the cropped sensor is a visible effect. Same with focal length - it doesn't change physically but the field of view due to the crop factor changes and makes a lens longer with the crop factor in place.

I always found the physical matter that the lens FL and f-stop itself doesn't change on a crop factor camera a weak comfort since it practically is of no use and seen is the change in longer depth of field (one stop) and longer field of view. And always needing to calculate the effective field of view by multiplying the lens FL with the crop factor is just a pain in the neck. Left using my crop factor camera in 2009 and never looked back.

Edited on Feb 22, 2024 at 10:15 AM · View previous versions



Feb 22, 2024 at 10:07 AM
mgscheu
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p.8 #5 · p.8 #5 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


Right, there is the effect on the DOF. I agree that it can be annoying, especially with low-light performance so good these days, the DOF effect is often more important than low light. Definitely agree.


Feb 22, 2024 at 10:13 AM
retrofocus
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p.8 #6 · p.8 #6 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


mgscheu wrote:
Right, there is the effect on the DOF. I agree that it can be annoying, especially with low-light performance so good these days, the DOF effect is often more important than low light. Definitely agree.


It can have advantages though for example in bird photography. I know a few bird photographers who like the longer field of view with APS-C based camera and long tele lens. The longer DoF isn't much of an issue here either and can be a benefit, too.



Feb 22, 2024 at 10:17 AM
1bwana1
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p.8 #7 · p.8 #7 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


stgrove wrote:
The A7CR seems like it has an M11 sensor with PDAF similar to the Q3, but allows interchangeable lenses.


Agree. It seems all of the 60+- mp cameras are using the same core Sony sensor. It is the Bayer layers, cover glass, and processing engine, that give each camera its unique look. The actual image quality is pretty much the same.

Hugh Brownstone just released a video saying that the A7CR is the best AF capable street photography camera in the World right now. He feels by a big margin. I suspect he is correct in this, my love for Leica not withstanding.








Feb 22, 2024 at 12:40 PM
stgrove
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p.8 #8 · p.8 #8 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


Wonder if those older, super small E mount 35 and 50mm lenses (2.8?) still hold up on the A7CR?


Feb 22, 2024 at 12:58 PM
flash
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p.8 #9 · p.8 #9 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


stgrove wrote:
Wonder if those older, super small E mount 35 and 50mm lenses (2.8?) still hold up on the A7CR?


Not sure. Don't have them. But the *i* sigmas certainly do. I have the 20, 50 and 85 and they're all excellent. Wished they'd made the 45mm an f2 instead of 2.8. And they're cheap for the IQ and have real aperture rings.

I do have the 55 1.8 and old 28/2 Sony's and they're really good on the A7CR but I like the *matched* set of the Sigmas and the aperture rings.

This is what I'm currently using instead of a Q3 (K has a Q3 though). I would have spent the money on a 45-50mm Q3 and got a 28mm one as well. Leica's loss (kind of as I bought one for K). I'm more than happy with the A7CR and Sigma's.

Gordon



Feb 22, 2024 at 03:30 PM
retrofocus
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p.8 #10 · p.8 #10 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


stgrove wrote:
Wonder if those older, super small E mount 35 and 50mm lenses (2.8?) still hold up on the A7CR?


Often reading the question if older lenses hold up on modern high MP FF sensors. Honestly, I have not come across of even one older lens where someone was able to visually prove that the sensor out-resolves significantly the lens. It is rather the opposite: Old vintage lenses shine with higher resolving modern sensors because their lack in sharpness is a bit compensated by the higher resolution of the sensor. Follows the rule of thumb: use higher resolving lenses for 35 mm film and vintage lenses on higher resolving sensors. You will get in both cases best of two worlds.

The created hype that modern sensors require modern lenses is IMO nothing else than a marketing strategy to sell new gear. Practically I have never seen it making a significant difference - and I have quite a few lenses....



Feb 22, 2024 at 03:36 PM
 


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1bwana1
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p.8 #11 · p.8 #11 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


retrofocus wrote:
The created hype that modern sensors require modern lenses is IMO nothing else than a marketing strategy to sell new gear. Practically I have never seen it making a significant difference - and I have quite a few lenses....


You are absolutely, and provably correct in this. All lenses benefit in resolution attained from today's high resolution sensors. Roger Cicala did an interesting study on this subject. Here is a link to it. I will also post his conclusion on the subject.

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/

"Appendix: Why Perceptual Megapixels are Stupid
I get asked several times a week if this lens or that is ‘capable of resolving’ this number of megapixels. Some people seem to think a lens should be ‘certified’ for a certain number of pixels or something. That’s not how it works. That’s not how any of it works.

How it does work is this. Any image you capture is not as sharp as reality. Take a picture of a bush and enlarge it to 100%. You probably can’t see if there are ants on the leaves. But in reality, you could walk over to the bush (enlarge it if you will) and see if there are ants by looking at a couple of leaves.

What if I got a better camera and a better lens? Well, theoretically, things would be so good I could see the ants if I enlarged the image enough. MTF is somewhat of a measurement of how sharp that image would be and how much detail it contains. (The detail part would be the higher frequency MTF.) That would, of course, be the MTF of the entire system, camera, and lens.

Lots of people think that will be ‘whichever is less of the camera and lens.’ For example, my camera can resolve 61 megapixels, but my lens can only resolve 30 megapixels, so all I can see is 30 megapixels.

That’s not how it works. How it does work is very simple math: System MTF = Camera MTF x Lens MTF. MTF maxes at 1.0 because 1.0 is perfect. So let’s say my camera MTF is 0.7, and my lens MTF is 0.7, then my system MTF is 0.49 (Lens MTF x Camera MTF). This is actually a pretty reasonable system.

Now, let’s say I get a much better camera with much higher resolution; the camera MTF is 0.9. The system MTF with the same lens also increases: 0.7 X 0.9 = 0.63. On the other hand, I could do the same thing if I bought a much better lens and kept it on the same camera. The camera basically never ‘out resolves the lens.’

You could kind of get that ‘perceptual megapixel’ thing if either the lens (or the camera) really sucks. Let say we were using a crappy kit zoom lens with an MTF of 0.3. With the old camera; 0.3 X 0.7 =.21. Let’s spend a fortune on the newer, better camera, and we get 0.3 X 0.9 = 0.27. So our overall system MTF only went up a bit (0.07) because the lens really sucked. But if it had been just an average lens or a better lens (let say the MTF was 0.6 or 0.8), we’d have gotten a pretty similar improvement.

If you have a reasonably good lens and/or a reasonably good camera, upgrading either one upgrades your images. If you ask something like ‘is my camera going to out resolve this lens’ you sound silly.

Roger’s rule: If you have either a crappy lens or crappy camera, improve the crappy part first; you get more bang for your $. I just saw a thread for someone wanting to upgrade to the newest 60-megapixel camera, and all of his lenses were average zooms. I got nauseous."




Feb 22, 2024 at 04:07 PM
mboy
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p.8 #12 · p.8 #12 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


Fuji released the x100vi with an Electronic Rangefinder ERF

The "Electronic Range Finder" (ERF) function allows a small EVF to be simultaneously displayed on the OVF, permitting the photographer to capture the subject in the OVF and magnify the in-focus area in the small EVF, thereby increasing the capabilities of the viewfinder. The ERF function is highly convenient for snapshots, etc.

If Leica ever made a EVF of sorts with rangefinder coupling they'd probably rip the idea from Fuji

https://www.fujifilm.com/th/en/news/unveiling-fujifilm-x100vi-the-one-and-only-compact-digital-camera-with-sophisticated




Feb 22, 2024 at 04:50 PM
retrofocus
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p.8 #13 · p.8 #13 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


1bwana1 wrote:
You are absolutely, and provably correct in this. All lenses benefit in resolution attained from today's high resolution sensors. Roger Cicala did an interesting study on this subject. Here is a link to it. I will also post his conclusion on the subject.

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/

"Appendix: Why Perceptual Megapixels are Stupid
I get asked several times a week if this lens or that is ‘capable of resolving’ this number of megapixels. Some people seem to think a lens should be ‘certified’ for a certain number of pixels or something. That’s not how it works. That’s not how any of it works.

How it does work
...Show more

Love this detailed explanation! Bookmarked!



Feb 22, 2024 at 08:21 PM
flash
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p.8 #14 · p.8 #14 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


mboy wrote:
Fuji released the x100vi with an Electronic Rangefinder ERF

The "Electronic Range Finder" (ERF) function allows a small EVF to be simultaneously displayed on the OVF, permitting the photographer to capture the subject in the OVF and magnify the in-focus area in the small EVF, thereby increasing the capabilities of the viewfinder. The ERF function is highly convenient for snapshots, etc.

If Leica ever made a EVF of sorts with rangefinder coupling they'd probably rip the idea from Fuji

https://www.fujifilm.com/th/en/news/unveiling-fujifilm-x100vi-the-one-and-only-compact-digital-camera-with-sophisticated



Been available on X100 and XPro bodies for years, and very very useful. Not sure how Leica could implement it and keep a mechanically coupled rangefinder. The Fuji solution works because there's no mechanical stuff in the way.

Gordon



Feb 23, 2024 at 12:40 PM
retrofocus
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p.8 #15 · p.8 #15 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


flash wrote:
Been available on X100 and XPro bodies for years, and very very useful. Not sure how Leica could implement it and keep a mechanically coupled rangefinder. The Fuji solution works because there's no mechanical stuff in the way.

Gordon


There won't be a mechanical rangefinder patch anymore in the EVF-M.



Feb 23, 2024 at 01:12 PM
stgrove
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p.8 #16 · p.8 #16 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


I can imagine an M sized camera with an EVF instead of a RF. However, for some reason I do not think it will be called an M. Perhaps an E or perhaps another CL sized camera with a FF sensor. I am hoping for a 24MP sensor.


Feb 29, 2024 at 08:42 PM
stgrove
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p.8 #17 · p.8 #17 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


Only 3 more days (after the SL3 launch) and we can begin to debate this again. Come one LeicaRumors get on board.


Mar 05, 2024 at 07:40 AM
stgrove
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p.8 #18 · p.8 #18 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


So I think it is about time for Leica to come out with a new camera body so that all the 200 buyers of the new Black Rim of he Steel Rim have something new to put on their shelf along with their USD10+k lens.


Mar 19, 2024 at 06:35 PM
RustyBug
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p.8 #19 · p.8 #19 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


A bit of a twist on the concept ... what if they took the Q and gave it an M mount, as a companion Q-M to expand the Q, as one with AF, and one with MF. That could be Q-Manual Lenses or Q-M Mount. Either way, Q-M would fit the quest for those asking for an EVF with M lenses.

In that regard, then they aren't tampering with the M, they are expanding the Q.




Mar 19, 2024 at 09:35 PM
stgrove
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p.8 #20 · p.8 #20 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


Agree. M name is set almost in stone, so they need a new name if a small camera is introduced with an EVF for using M lenses. Small to me means Q or M size and not SL size.


Mar 20, 2024 at 08:55 AM
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