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When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?

  
 
stgrove
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


Why not an M sized camera with EVF instead of RF.

Regarding using M manual focus lenses on an AF camera, look at the SL with M adapter. It works but not as well as on an M in many cases.

Also some aging Leica users have immense trouble using the RF to its best advantage, thus this EVF in the camera idea sprang forth.



Jan 22, 2024 at 01:26 PM
1bwana1
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


I love my shooting experience with the M camera. This experience is encapsulated in the simple interface between camera, and photographer. That includes manual focus through the RF viewfinder among other things. I don't want that experience downgraded in any way. Period. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't room to broaden capabilities and offer different experiences/methods when the need or mood arises.

The M11 has come a lot more towards the digital mirrorless camera than I think many realize. We are now operating directly off the sensor for many things. Exposure has benefited greatly from this. Those that want an EVF hybrid added to the RF I feel are going the wrong way towards the best solution.

We all ready have a rear screen, but it is far from industry best standards. Leica should spend the time and money to optimize that. Give the M the very best rear screen experience possible. Make that an amazing choice for the photographer to use when he wants/needs to shoot that way.

The M already has an EVF. Again it just is far from the best the industry has to offer. Leica should spend the money and time to change that too. Give it superb resolution, get rid of the lag and blackout, make the mounting more integrated when attached to the body. Stickit a boxy EVF on the hot shoe is just not the best solution in my opinion.

When I shoot with the EVF on I get expanded capabilities. I primarily still shoot through the RF, but when critical framing with very wide, or very long, or close focus lenses is required, the rear screen and the EVF are the best solution. I can seamlessly switch between them. They are just not up to the quality of experience of the rest of the camera. Having the best of these would do nothing to harm the best RF experience in the industry.

I am fine with MF only in the M line. For me when you have AF you also need to make it incredibly fast, high frame rates, AI accurate and all the other AF things going into top end mirrorless cameras. Leica M will thankfully never be that. The Leica RF is the best there is. But it does impose some limitations. The RF mechanicals disconnect from the lens when shooting close focus lenses. Fine, switch to EVF/Rear screen. The problem isn't with the lens it is with the body. Optimize the electronic focus system and the M mount makes sense have lenses designed for close focus. Optimize the digital focusing experience. Nikon has recently just shown a few ways this can be done. If Leica were to make the digital MF experience the best in the industry, that would be worth the R&D investment. Maybe we could have some lenses designed for this only, leaving out the RF coupling in the lens entirely. 6 bit coding could switch the camera into this mode when attached, Could we then have functional small zooms for the M? Who knows how great they can make a digital off the sensor focusing system. Leica should lead the industry in this.

In short, I don't think we need Leica to build a whole new line of bodies and lenses. We need Leica to broaden the M line, and make it the best in the industry with the feature set it offers. Both RF and digital.

Just thinking out loud...

Edited on Jan 22, 2024 at 01:39 PM · View previous versions



Jan 22, 2024 at 01:33 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


wolfloid wrote:
No, not even remotely like the SL autofocus. Much more like the square, magnified EVF insert in the Fuji X100V optical finder. Obviously it would be great if Leica could integrate that into their own optical viewfinder, as you mention, (switch on or switch off as in the X100V) but I think they have tried and ruled it out (not enough room with the rangefinder mechanism).

In principle the camera viewfinder could show an unmagnified, normal EVF view, with the ability to see a magnified section at the same time, which would obviate the need to punch in magnified view, but
...Show more

I think you are missing that without auto-aperture when a lens is stopped down to f/5.6 or f/8 it is often quite hard to place the focal plane exactly even with an EVF and magnified view. Just one of the ways that using M lenses instead of lenses designed for an EVF would be less than optimal on an EVF camera.



Jan 22, 2024 at 01:36 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


wolfloid wrote:
All your arguments make complete sense, except this one. Yes, of course Leica M lenses are designed for the limitations of the M body, of course they could either be even better or the same quality and cheaper if they were designed without those limitations in mind. But, what I think you miss, is that there are already very fine M lenses in existence, and many people love them because they are very good (not perfect) and very small. Very good and small sets Leica apart. Even Fujiís APSc lenses of the same focal length are all larger, especially if
...Show more

It isn't just the size that is the limit with M lenses on an EVF camera. They don't have auto-aperture which makes precisely focussing at small apertures quite difficult with an EVF even in magnified view. This can be overcome to some extent with focus confirmation, but not on an M lens because it doesn't have electronic contacts. As an example the Voigtlander 50 f/2 APO in Nikon Z mount is much nicer to use than the M mount version because you can use focus confirmation and that is especially useful when you want to stop down.

I have 6 really nice Leica M lenses (21SEM, 28 cron Asph, 35 lux FLE, 50 lux Asph, 75 cron APO, & 90 elmarit-M) and they really come to life on the Leica M camera for which they are designed. I can use them on an EVF camera but the limitations become obvious and I would much rather use lenses designed for the EVF camera when I use that camera. Sure M lenses will work on an EVF camera, but they don't work optimally and if I am making a luxury product I want the feel of using the system to be optimal and that means lenses designed for that system not an alternative system that works in a very different way.



Jan 22, 2024 at 01:47 PM
1bwana1
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


Steve Spencer wrote:
I have 6 really nice Leica M lenses (21SEM, 28 cron Asph, 35 lux FLE, 50 lux Asph, 75 cron APO, & 90 elmarit-M) and they really come to life on the Leica M camera for which they are designed. I can use them on an EVF camera but the limitations become obvious and I would much rather use lenses designed for the EVF camera when I use that camera. Sure M lenses will work on an EVF camera, but they don't work optimally and if I am making a luxury product I want the feel of using the
...Show more

This has been my experience as well. I don't bother adapting M lenses to my Sony camera anymore. I shoot lenses designed for each system natively. I notice the results otherwise.



Jan 22, 2024 at 01:53 PM
wolfloid
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


I think you are missing that without auto-aperture when a lens is stopped down to f/5.6 or f/8 it is often quite hard to place the focal plane exactly even with an EVF and magnified view.

For me it would be very easy to either: just accept that at f8 my ability to focus perfectly is limited (though depth of field should cover that) or supremely easy to focus wide open and then quickly stop down. I really canít see a problem in any real world situation Iím likely to shoot in. Maybe you would?

The advantage of having premium small lenses is to me far too much of an advantage to worry about such a minor problem.

I have also mostly stopped using M lenses on my Sony because of the filter stack, and image quality degradation mid frame/edge. On an M EVF that would not be a problem.



Jan 22, 2024 at 03:08 PM
RustyBug
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


wolfloid wrote:
I have also mostly stopped using M lenses on my Sony because of the filter stack, and image quality degradation mid frame/edge. On an M EVF that would not be a problem.


To me, this is where Leica could pull market share their way. Not from traditional M shooters, but from mirrorless shooters who value M lenses, and want to get all that the M glass has to offer. There will also be some traditional M shooters who will like an EVF, but it isn't going to keep them from shooting the M. With the mirrorless shooters ...yeah, it keeps 'em on the mirrorless platform.

I mean ... think about. Folks like the M lenses SO MUCH, that they'll KNOWINGLY, put up with IQ degradation. Granted, for some it is a $$$ proposition, but I think that there are also those who are so EVF oriented, that they hold on to it so dearly, it keeps them from realizing all that the M glass on M sensor can give.




Jan 22, 2024 at 06:20 PM
retrofocus
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


Was traveling, so I am a bit late to this party. But I phrased my opinion here about the "EVF M" multiple times in other threads. Here a summary of points I made earlier:

- Kaufmann committed years ago to the L-mount as being the future for Leica Cameras. With this came the L-alliance - the latter being a good idea but didn't help the SL series much. It is falling short of sales expectations since. Leica could however still have a competitive advantage with the "EVF M" camera. Smaller than the SL but equipped with FF sensor, limited AF/video functions (if any) but optimized to be used with manual rangefinder lenses. Much bigger market IMO for Leica to tap into than with the SL series.

- Second best selling camera series for Leica is after M- the Q-series. This success comes with a debit - IMO the Q was originally thought be be a mini SL camera with fixed lens. But IMO Leica underestimated where their roots are - providing small camera gear with high quality optics. People want the M series with exchangeable M-mount and/or go with the smaller Q-series and fixed lens.

Leica now has a hard time with commitment to L-mount and the Q-series to make a camera many Leica users desire: call it a Q with exchangeable lens mount or "EVF M" in parallel to existing rangefinder M series. With such camera in the program, the Q-series would only have the eventual advantage of AF over an "EVF M", and the SL series would be pushed back into a narrower niche of video-centric users - because M-lens users using the SL would all switch to such "EVF M", too.

An EVF-M will more disrupt their current business especially with SL and Q series where users might switch to such EVF-M as mentioned earlier. This indeed is IMO the major culprit for such a camera: in-house competition. The luxury status thingy could be easily maintained by Leica by cranking again the price high up for such EVF-M.

Thorsten Overgaard's video about the M11 and being a beta-version of an EVF-M camera might be helpful here to support the idea why Leica is likely already working on it. I agree with him that it is unlikely just an accident that the latest external EVF for the M11 fits perfectly inside the rangefinder patch by size. The EVF-M will be released in parallel to the existing traditional M- series.

If such EVF-M one sees light of the day, it will be priced at least as much as the latest M rangefinder model even manufacturing cost with less mechanical parts for missing rangefinder will be less. I suspect around $9K. It might take 10 years to get it for $3K if this model does not turn out to be a failure.

The camera might be named M12-E with E for electronic viewfinder analog to the M10-R where R stands for resolution. A release of an EVF-based M-like camera will happen. Question is only how long Leica keeps dragging their feet for reasons mentioned in my comment. I would love to use my traditional Ms and such EVF M in parallel.



Jan 24, 2024 at 05:11 PM
LBJ2
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


retrofocus wrote:
Was traveling, so I am a bit late to this party. But I phrased my opinion here about the "EVF M" multiple times in other threads. Here a summary of points I made earlier:

- Kaufmann committed years ago to the L-mount as being the future for Leica Cameras. With this came the L-alliance - the latter being a good idea but didn't help the SL series much. It is falling short of sales expectations since. Leica could however still have a competitive advantage with the "EVF M" camera. Smaller than the SL but equipped with FF sensor, limited AF/video functions
...Show more

Where can I find/read or listen to the source for what you wrote: "Kaufmann committed years ago to the L-mount as being the future for Leica Cameras"



Jan 24, 2024 at 05:49 PM
stgrove
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


Well known, but not sure where found.

As for another EVF, Let's see what 2024 brings with all the 70 years of the M hop-la. Could be an M12, but that is not what I am waiting for. The Elektronischer Sucher is an EVF in German so the Leica E (or ES) could be the name without having too mention the M even if in an M or M-like body. E works in German and English at least.



Jan 24, 2024 at 05:57 PM
 


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retrofocus
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


LBJ2 wrote:
Where can I find/read or listen to the source for what you wrote: "Kaufmann committed years ago to the L-mount as being the future for Leica Cameras"


https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2019/07/breakfast-with-dr-andreas-kaufmann/

"As you saw from the press conference, the L-Mount Alliance is built around the Leica L-Mount, which we developed for mirrorless starting around 2010. We feel that this pushes Leica onto a global stage as these industry-leading companies chose to build around our mount technology."

This said, I personally have zero interest in the L-mount including potentially being used for an EVF-M. I really hope such camera comes with fully manual focus M-mount instead. But seeing the commitment above, it might elude to the L-mount still.



Jan 24, 2024 at 08:11 PM
LBJ2
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


retrofocus wrote:
https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2019/07/breakfast-with-dr-andreas-kaufmann/

"As you saw from the press conference, the L-Mount Alliance is built around the Leica L-Mount, which we developed for mirrorless starting around 2010. We feel that this pushes Leica onto a global stage as these industry-leading companies chose to build around our mount technology."

This said, I personally have zero interest in the L-mount including potentially being used for an EVF-M. I really hope such camera comes with fully manual focus M-mount instead. But seeing the commitment above, it might elude to the L-mount still.


Interesting article. I read this back in 2019 too, but came away with a different conclusion. Even more interesting is to compare what was said in that interview with Leica 2024.

Skip forward to the future, 2024 from 2019 and thankfully, M-mount is still thriving and driving major revenue for Leica in 2024 as is or as a rangefinder. Even if the M-mount itself has long since matured technically, it appears still very much desired as a rangefinder, with technical advancements and innovations being applied to the M-camera body and M lenses.

What's the next new Leica EVF camera after the SL3 is introduced? As someone else commented, I also think it might be the S4, Leica's new mirrorless medium format camera system.



Jan 25, 2024 at 08:39 AM
stgrove
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


The S4 could come true. BUT it must compete with the likes of Hasselblad and Fuji whose 100MP cameras have taken the world by storm at sub $9k prices that must put pressure on Leica marketing if they were to introduce a new S camera. We know the price will be North of $10K (especially since M bodies are close to touching that number already today) and that will be the problem with the S IMHO. Sure some will go for it, but I hope it will not put a drain on Leicas R&D budget of the future.

For me at times I would like an M sized manual focus camera with a built-in superior EVF, i.e., around 10 million dots. I could care less what they call it, just make one. It WILL sell based on extensive surveys.



Jan 25, 2024 at 09:31 AM
LBJ2
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


stgrove wrote:
The S4 could come true. BUT it must compete with the likes of Hasselblad and Fuji whose 100MP cameras have taken the world by storm at sub $9k prices that must put pressure on Leica marketing if they were to introduce a new S camera. We know the price will be North of $10K (especially since M bodies are close to touching that number already today) and that will be the problem with the S IMHO. Sure some will go for it, but I hope it will not put a drain on Leicas R&D budget of the future.

For me at
...Show more

We know Leica sent such a survey to LHS members some time ago ( that info was posted somewhere on the internet). I've received Leica customer surveys but I don't remember ever being asked about M-EVF. I also read the LUF forum survey on the same, but not sure what people write on forums always equates to how a majority of customers will actually spend their money.

OTOH, given what we've read from official sources, not forum comments, at a minimum, the M-EVF was or is being seriously considered and perhaps become a reality sooner than later. If I remember correctly the Leica to LHS survey included some text about considering fitting the current Visoflex 2 EVF mechanism into an M body which might be a logical step to see how well the product might sell or not without putting in too much R&D resources...just a guess on my part.

Edit: The LHS survey source:

https://leicarumors.com/2023/02/15/leica-society-international-sent-out-a-survey-about-the-long-rumored-leica-m-camera-with-a-built-in-evf.aspx/

Edited on Jan 25, 2024 at 11:16 AM · View previous versions



Jan 25, 2024 at 10:20 AM
retrofocus
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


LBJ2 wrote:
Interesting article. I read this back in 2019 too, but came away with a different conclusion. Even more interesting is to compare what was said in that interview with Leica 2024.

Skip forward to the future, 2024 from 2019 and thankfully, M-mount is still thriving and driving major revenue for Leica in 2024 as is or as a rangefinder. Even if the M-mount itself has long since matured technically, it appears still very much desired as a rangefinder, with technical advancements and innovations being applied to the M-camera body and M lenses.

What's the next new Leica EVF camera after the SL3
...Show more

You might be right with your assumption. It takes several years from building prototype to commercialization - what we will be seeing soon was already in the pipeline years ago. So even if current commercial success is a bit questionable regarding the series, we will likely still see new SL and S-series versions since it was already planned out.

Agree also that the M-mount will remain Leica's best selling camera product. But if a new EVF-M line would be equipped with it? I am not sure seeing the earlier article I cited and commitment to L-mount for EVF/mirrorless based cameras. The only hope I have that it will come with M-mount is to avoid in-house competition with the SL and Q-lines by avoiding AF and maybe video, too.

LBJ2 wrote:
If I remember correctly the Leica to LHS survey included some text about considering fitting the current Visoflex 2 EVF mechanism into an M body which might be a logical step to see how well the product might sell or not without putting in too much R&D resources...just a guess on my part.


Exactly what I mentioned earlier with the reference to Overgaard's M11 video. The external EVF here fits perfectly in size into the rangefinder section to replace it. Something like this will become likely the first EVF-M type camera.



Jan 25, 2024 at 10:24 AM
LBJ2
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


FWIW

"Letís Not Debate: The purpose of the survey is not to debate the merits or demerits of the optical rangefinder and EVF. As noted above, they both have their strengths and weaknesses, and each photographer would have to decide for themselves what kind of camera makes sense. We are not talking about replacing the classic M rangefinder with an electronic version. We are talking about adding an alternative to the rangefinder within the M line."

https://leicarumors.com/2023/02/15/leica-society-international-sent-out-a-survey-about-the-long-rumored-leica-m-camera-with-a-built-in-evf.aspx/



Jan 25, 2024 at 11:18 AM
SlowDriver
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


stgrove wrote:
The S4 could come true. BUT it must compete with the likes of Hasselblad and Fuji whose 100MP cameras have taken the world by storm at sub $9k prices that must put pressure on Leica marketing if they were to introduce a new S camera. We know the price will be North of $10K (especially since M bodies are close to touching that number already today) and that will be the problem with the S IMHO. Sure some will go for it, but I hope it will not put a drain on Leicas R&D budget of the future.

If the new medium format camera is mirrorless, without OVF and with a new mount (as mentioned before) I personally would not call it an S4. It would be a brand new system that takes S-lenses (and other Leica lenses probably) using adapters.

Leica would not be able to compete with Fuji (if APS-C is any guidance) and Leica would probably not want to compete with Hasselblad as it is cheaper and not much bigger than an M.

It might perhaps make more sense for Leica to go after the very high end and very expensive Phase One market. Time will tell.



Jan 25, 2024 at 11:36 AM
SlowDriver
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


retrofocus wrote:
You might be right with your assumption. It takes several years from building prototype to commercialization - what we will be seeing soon was already in the pipeline years ago. So even if current commercial success is a bit questionable regarding the series, we will likely still see new SL and S-series versions since it was already planned out.

Agree also that the M-mount will remain Leica's best selling camera product. But if a new EVF-M line would be equipped with it? I am not sure seeing the earlier article I cited and commitment to L-mount for EVF/mirrorless based cameras.
...Show more


Is that the case though? The last two times I was in a Leica boutique I was told that the Q outsells the M. I will ask again next time.

Edited on Jan 25, 2024 at 11:45 AM · View previous versions



Jan 25, 2024 at 11:40 AM
LBJ2
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


stgrove wrote:
The S4 could come true. BUT it must compete with the likes of Hasselblad and Fuji whose 100MP cameras have taken the world by storm at sub $9k prices that must put pressure on Leica marketing if they were to introduce a new S camera. We know the price will be North of $10K (especially since M bodies are close to touching that number already today) and that will be the problem with the S IMHO. Sure some will go for it, but I hope it will not put a drain on Leicas R&D budget of the future.

For me at
...Show more

I don't think a new Leica mirrorless medium format system is on the minds of many on the forums other than those of us guessing what might be next.

However, of the existing medium format systems, I'm thinking Leica could best competitor medium frame optics by a fair margin both in IQ and available range which might be one of the compelling reasons to own a Leica mirrorless medium frame system. Medium format digital sensor AND the very best medium format lenses. Leica SL APO primes and Leitz Cine lenses might be a hint.



Jan 25, 2024 at 11:41 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?


LBJ2 wrote:
FWIW

"Letís Not Debate: The purpose of the survey is not to debate the merits or demerits of the optical rangefinder and EVF. As noted above, they both have their strengths and weaknesses, and each photographer would have to decide for themselves what kind of camera makes sense. We are not talking about replacing the classic M rangefinder with an electronic version. We are talking about adding an alternative to the rangefinder within the M line."

https://leicarumors.com/2023/02/15/leica-society-international-sent-out-a-survey-about-the-long-rumored-leica-m-camera-with-a-built-in-evf.aspx/


Keep in mind that this survey is not from Leica. It is from Leica Society International a group of photographers interested in Leica products. IMO, it tells us close to nothing about whether Leica is planning or even considering making such a camera.



Jan 25, 2024 at 11:47 AM
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