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When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?

stgrove
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?

Assuming the SL is one and the Q is another, what will be the third "new" EVF camera we will see from Leica?

Will it be a version of the M12? Since to a German an M is a RF camera only and nothing more, they probably would not call it an M EVF. How about a Leica "E"?

Jan 21, 2024 at 09:29 AM

Steve Spencer
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?

stgrove wrote:
Assuming the SL is one and the Q is another, what will be the third "new" EVF camera we will see from Leica?

Will it be a version of the M12? Since to a German an M is a RF camera only and nothing more, they probably would not call it an M EVF. How about a Leica "E"?

I don't think we will ever see a 3rd Leica EVF camera. Leica has the M-mount rangefinder camera as a small camera. They have the SL series as a larger camera. They have the Q series as a fixed lens camera. I don't see them making anything else. They have basically abandoned the S series medium format, which I think unfortunately makes sense and if Hasselblad didn't have there X series cameras I could see them making a EVF medium format camera, but I don't think they will wade into those waters.

I know a lot of people would love to see a smaller EVF camera, but I just don't see that happening. IMO, M lenses are better used with a rangefinder and an EVF camera really calls for AF lenses. That to me would mean an L-mount small EVF camera, but that would require, IMO, a smaller set of L-mount lenses. I don't see them doing that and I don't know how well that would work given all the small EVF cameras that are out there.

Jan 21, 2024 at 10:03 AM

stgrove
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?

Agree competing with small EVF cameras with a small SL even in a CL body would not work well.

However, I use my M's with the latest EVF and find it very enjoyable, so for me using manual M lenses on an EVF body that takes M lenses would be perfect. In fact a poll concluded that around 50-60% said they would buy an EVF body for use with M lenses even while keeping their M RF bodies.

Jan 21, 2024 at 10:44 AM

airfrogusmc
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?

I'm not German and M being a true rangefinder is one of the reason I own 2 M 10s and an M 10 Mono. EVF you are now looking through the lens is what all the mirrorless and DSLRs are. Lots of those already out there. M is a real choice that isn't that.

Jan 21, 2024 at 11:07 AM

RexGig0
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?

I am certainly no expert on this matter, but, Leica Camera seems to be averse to having too many SKUs, which is a valid business principle. Model differentiation is another valid business principle. So, even before we get into the historical/tradition aspects, my layman’s observation is that there seems to be little reason for Leica to add another EVF camera system.

Personally, if I want to look at a small television, while composing an image, the LCD, on the rear of the camera, is there, for the purpose. I have a Visoflex 020, but after its initial function-testing, I put it away. (Thankfully, I bought it pre-owned, so frittered-away less money than buying a new one.) I was “into” nice binoculars for a number years before I started using interchangeable-lens cameras. Looking through glass is “real,” to me, whether magnified, or not. I am seeing the actual light rays. Looking through an EVF is watching a tiny television; so, well, will just say that it is unsatisfying and uninspiring.

I see nothing wrong with the SL series of cameras, if I want to participate in EVF-less-ness. I believe that I am more likely to buy an SL-series camera, than an M11. Thus far, I have bought neither. I did not dump my DSLRs, en masse, when I bought into the M system. An SL camera is not “too big.” I think the hard corners may give an impression that an SL is larger than it really is. I understand that I.B.I.S. mandates a thicker body than M cameras, which does not bother me.

Jan 21, 2024 at 12:06 PM

stgrove
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?

The SL2S is a fantastic camera to own, especially after the FW update that brought its focusing more inline with current focusing systems, even though in the Q3 finally entered the PDAF world by adding it with a hybrid focusing system. Though highly expensive (I assume) the SL3 will probably also have that hybrid AF system in it.

Believe me the current EVF's make the Visa 020 seem like a 100 year old EVF.

Jan 21, 2024 at 09:58 PM

freaklikeme
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?

I'm pretty sure we'll see a mirrorless version of the S eventually, but I have no idea when it'll happen.

Jan 21, 2024 at 10:17 PM

flash
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?

Despite the EVF being from 1926, I use my A7CR much much more than my M11 and Q's combined. A lot of other agree as the A7CR has done very well.

Dropping the CL was a daft decision by Leica. A CL2 with IBIS would have been a huge seller but leica want to protect the M10. And now they've gone for the multi res M11 they can't backpedal and release a new CL 24MP camera. Too bad. The lenses are epic.

I started that poll at LuF (they don't allow that any more). Before that Schultz said not many wanted an EVF M. That changed their mind. They won't let users do polls any more or they'd find out that the fucked up with the CL Q30 50mm and S3 as well.

Gordon

Jan 22, 2024 at 02:48 AM

airfrogusmc
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?

Jan 22, 2024 at 09:21 AM

stgrove
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?

flash wrote:
Despite the EVF being from 1926, I use my A7CR much much more than my M11 and Q's combined. A lot of other agree as the A7CR has done very well.

Dropping the CL was a daft decision by Leica. A CL2 with IBIS would have been a huge seller but leica want to protect the M10. And now they've gone for the multi res M11 they can't backpedal and release a new CL 24MP camera. Too bad. The lenses are epic.

I started that poll at LuF (they don't allow that any more). Before that Schultz said not many wanted an...Show more →

Good for you as that was one of the most telling polls I had seen. Remember when Daniels said , by mistake and then corrected himself, that they would need to sell a few thousand to recoup expenses? Then he said an EVF needs AF lenses. So your poll shows many of us would by an EVF capable of accepting M manual focus lenses and ALSO buy a RF M.

What more do they need to hear? Leica prides itself on being the last to the party, except when there jumped forward with the SL 601. I hated it as others must have too since they had to drop the price from what $7.5k to $6k. Now the refined SL2 and SL2S, which I have and love, is great for me. It was the 24MP sensor that got me on board.

A small EVF camera with a 24MP BSI sensor would also be a hit since Leica can see their SL2S decision was well accepted. BTW I do not do video, but wanted to go back to my favorite Leica MP size-the 24MP.

Let's see what 2024 brings with all the 70 years of the M hop-la. Could be an M12, but that is not what I am waiting for. The elektronischer sucher is an EVF so the Leica E could be the name without having too mention the M even if in an M body..

Jan 22, 2024 at 09:54 AM

wolfloid
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?

I am not a marketing expert, so Leica’s decisions have always mystified me. I had always assumed these companies made cameras to sell, but it seems that it is also about defending iconic products and maintaining high-margin exclusivity.

My guess is that there are different strands of thought within Leica about the appropriateness of an EVF M, but there has been a veto on it until now, because of the considerations above.

I do think they need to develop a fast, seamless, and accurate manual focus system before they go for it, and that may also be a problem. I’m not impressed with peaking or Fuji’s electronic rangefinder view, neither seem to be at all accurate, whereas punching in magnification is too slow and you lose the overall composition momentarily. I wonder what they have up their sleeve (something like Fuji’s inserted magnification square, but in the middle?) My guess is that when they have that right they will confident to go ahead and bring one to market.

Or is that just wishful thinking?

Jan 22, 2024 at 10:57 AM

wolfloid
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?

I am a rangedfinder photographer and if Leica wants to keep me buying anything new they will keep the M as a rangefinder. It is one of the things that separates Leica from the herd. If it becomes what everything else is then why would I drop the $$$ on a Leica M.

I’m not sure anyone is suggesting that at all, and I agree it would put many people off. Everyone I’ve heard talking about this seems to be asking for an extra EVF M - obviously with a good, fast, accurate focus system. Many also say that they want that in addition to their RF M. Depending on how good the EVF is and how functional the focusing system is it could offer a far more satisfactory viewing/focusing system for very wide (10-24mm) or longer lenses, even up to 200mm, perhaps even more if they are not too bulky. What’s wrong with that?

Jan 22, 2024 at 11:03 AM

Steve Spencer
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?

stgrove wrote:
Good for you as that was one of the most telling polls I had seen. Remember when Daniels said , by mistake and then corrected himself, that they would need to sell a few thousand to recoup expenses? Then he said an EVF needs AF lenses. So your poll shows many of us would by an EVF capable of accepting M manual focus lenses and ALSO buy a RF M.

What more do they need to hear? Leica prides itself on being the last to the party, except when there jumped forward with the SL 601. I hated it as others...Show more →

I just disagree that a small EVF camera for M lenses makes sense. IMO, M lenses are purposely designed with the limitations of the rangefinder in mind. The have smaller diameters and are shorter on purpose so there is minimal blockage of the view in the rangefinder. Also as a mechanical mount without auto aperture there is no need for any electronics in the lenses.

If Leica develops a small EVF camera, then I would expect (and this is just my personal view) that they would optimize lenses for this camera. That would mean not artificially constraining the size of the lenses for a rangefinder that isn't there. It would also mean adding electronic contacts. It would also mean if you used a sensor with PDAF, focus confirmation at a minimum but also perhaps AF. It just seems like folly to me to make a new type of camera that is meant to be a premium luxury product but not make lenses that are optimized for that camera. At a minimum I would at least expect lenses like the Voigtlander lenses for Sony E, Nikon Z, and Canon RF mount. These lenses are somewhat larger. They have electronics, and they include support for things like image stabilization and focus confirmation in the EVF beyond magnification and focus peaking (at least the Nikon Z and Canon RF lenses do).

It is for these reasons that I would expect a small EVF Leica to have a L-mount and a new set of lenses and that is a big investment for Leica and I don't see how that would be worth it to them especially with all the competition out there from all the other companies. I think such a camera would be even less successful than the SL series.

In contrast the M series has no competition for rangefinder cameras and it is much easier to sell cameras as a luxury branded product when there is no competition. I expect the small Leica camera to continue to be just the M, but that is just my perspective.

Jan 22, 2024 at 11:11 AM

Steve Spencer
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?

wolfloid wrote:
I am not a marketing expert, so Leica’s decisions have always mystified me. I had always assumed these companies made cameras to sell, but it seems that it is also about defending iconic products and maintaining high-margin exclusivity.

My guess is that there are different strands of thought within Leica about the appropriateness of an EVF M, but there has been a veto on it until now, because of the considerations above.

I do think they need to develop a fast, seamless, and accurate manual focus system before they go for it, and that may also be a problem. I’m not impressed...Show more →

The work I do is related to marketing. Some of my students and some of my colleagues do get jobs in marketing departments of business schools. The basic approach that I see Leica taking is *not* trying to sell as many cameras as they can, which is often the strategy and is the strategy that fits with trying to be disruptive in the market, but rather trying to have a stable market of very high profit goods. This strategy isn't the most common, but it isn't unheard of either. Leica's strategy works best when they have distinctive products and avoid disruption in the market. It is an inheritantly conservative strategy.

Those who want innovation will always be at least somewhat frustrated with a company with this strategy. Those who love the products made by such a company will quite often build attachment to those products and the company.

In sum, IMO, I don't think we can ever expect Leica to be a company that strives to be innovative and if you want that it will be frustrating to own their products. If you love their products and their unique approach and can pay for them then you will likely be quite committed to the company and the products.

Jan 22, 2024 at 11:21 AM

RustyBug
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?

wolfloid wrote:
I’m not sure anyone is suggesting that at all, and I agree it would put many people off. Everyone I’ve heard talking about this seems to be asking for an extra EVF M - obviously with a good, fast, accurate focus system. Many also say that they want that in addition to their RF M. Depending on how good the EVF is and how functional the focusing system is it could offer a far more satisfactory viewing/focusing system for very wide (10-24mm) or longer lenses, even up to 200mm, perhaps even more if they are not too bulky. What’s wrong...Show more →

"focusing system" ... that's sounds a whole lot like an SL (i.e. autofocus).

I can see having an EVF M with an electronic viewfinder in the traditional location (top left corner) in an M body, but the "fast accurate focus system" would still be the manual, tactile M lens (coupled with a "very responsive" EVF).

It would be interesting to consider how that might be implemented. Some folks have thought of an "overlay" system similar to Fuji. I'm wondering if an EVF inset to a surrounding OVF (plain) frame, would then allow for optical viewing (no blackout) of that which is about to enter the frame. Could be a bit tricky though, if the lag time was long enough for human detection, though (back to "very responsive" EVF).

Again, this would not be a replacement to the traditional M RF viewfinder, but an alternate model ... somewhat analogous to an M without an LCD is an alternate model, but still embodies the M mount lenses, and retains the OVF (granted, an EVF framed in OVF would only partial).

Most folks are probably thinking a "full sized" EVF. I'm thinking more like a "patch sized" EVF that would still be surrounded by the OVF, and could be "punched in" to for critical focus viewing, but would still retain the OVF ability to view the scene in it's entirety. The difference being, one approach would be trying to convert the viewfinder experience to a FF mirrorless style.
The other being, to simply "update" the focus patch to EVF, retaining the essence of the RF experience to broadly view beyond the FOV, and still nail focus.

Implementation is beyond my paygrade.

But, in all regard ... only as an alternate model option, i.e. not a replacement of the traditional.

Jan 22, 2024 at 11:26 AM

airfrogusmc
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?

Jan 22, 2024 at 11:31 AM

stgrove
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?

Great comments and some interesting theories.

One must remember that when Leica came out with the mirrorless Sl 601, only after that did others embrace it by introducing their own mirrorless cameras and then eventually they came out with more and more new lenses for their new systems.

To me that is Leica being bold and forging ahead with this entirely new idea for the company, probably thanks to Dr, Kaufmann

Jan 22, 2024 at 12:18 PM

wolfloid
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?

It just seems like folly to me to make a new type of camera that is meant to be a premium luxury product but not make lenses that are optimized for that camera.

All your arguments make complete sense, except this one. Yes, of course Leica M lenses are designed for the limitations of the M body, of course they could either be even better or the same quality and cheaper if they were designed without those limitations in mind. But, what I think you miss, is that there are already very fine M lenses in existence, and many people love them because they are very good (not perfect) and very small. Very good and small sets Leica apart. Even Fuji’s APSc lenses of the same focal length are all larger, especially if the quality of focus separation is considered when equivalent focal length and aperture are compared.

There seems to be a relatively largish group of people who want very good and small, and they loathe the bulking up that seems to come with AF and electronic contacts. Not everyone wants the ultimate image quality of the SL 35mm f2 APO when the M 35mm APO is a quarter of the size and 99% of the image quality. In fact, going by M sales compared to SL sales it is the vast majority of photographers that choose small over large that are on that sort of budget.

There is also that group of people who just love manual focusing, they love that tactile engagement, but are too challenged by the M rangefinder, beyond the optimum 28-50 mm range, but still want small lenses, say a 21 and a 90 mm. That is Leica’s market. Of course, it is for Leica to decide whether they would sell enough EVF cameras without cannibalising existing M or SL sales. That does seem to be the main factor here.

Jan 22, 2024 at 12:28 PM

wolfloid
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?

"focusing system" ... that's sounds a whole lot like an SL (i.e. autofocus).

No, not even remotely like the SL autofocus. Much more like the square, magnified EVF insert in the Fuji X100V optical finder. Obviously it would be great if Leica could integrate that into their own optical viewfinder, as you mention, (switch on or switch off as in the X100V) but I think they have tried and ruled it out (not enough room with the rangefinder mechanism).

In principle the camera viewfinder could show an unmagnified, normal EVF view, with the ability to see a magnified section at the same time, which would obviate the need to punch in magnified view, but would still yield very fast and very good focus accuracy. It could be a square insert that can be placed exactly where in the viewfinder the user finds it most efficacious, and ideally could be set to whatever magnification (33%/50%/100%) the user found most useful.

Jan 22, 2024 at 12:48 PM

RustyBug
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · When will a 3rd Leica EVF camera come out?

wolfloid wrote:
No, not even remotely like the SL autofocus. Much more like the square, magnified EVF insert in the Fuji X100V optical finder. Obviously it would be great if Leica could integrate that into their own optical viewfinder, as you mention, (switch on or switch off as in the X100V) but I think they have tried and ruled it out (not enough room with the rangefinder mechanism).

In principle the camera viewfinder could show an unmagnified, normal EVF view, with the ability to see a magnified section at the same time, which would obviate the need to punch in magnified view, but...Show more →

Okay, you said "focusing system" ... but, you're describing the "viewing system" which I guess is an integral sub-component to the (manual) focusing system. I didn't quite follow what you meant when you said "focusing system". I get what you meant by "focusing system" a bit better, now. Thanks for the clarification.

Jan 22, 2024 at 01:06 PM

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