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Really dislike the size of these lenses

  
 
1bwana1
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · Really dislike the size of these lenses


runamuck wrote:
I have long considered the 24-70 f4. At just shy of a Grand it lacks VR. The 16-50 at under $200 does have VR? It is nonsensical to me. Lack of VR makes any lens a non starter at my age.


I have slight essential tremors at my age now. So, I am with you on this. If I have to pick only one, it seems that IBIS produces better results than lens VR. However, if both the lens and the camera have image stabilization capabilities then you get much better results than either alone. I think with the Z system if you turn on one, you turn on both. There is no running them separately.



Jan 15, 2024 at 04:48 PM
Alistair1
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · Really dislike the size of these lenses


runamuck wrote:
I have long considered the 24-70 f4. At just shy of a Grand it lacks VR. The 16-50 at under $200 does have VR? It is nonsensical to me. Lack of VR makes any lens a non starter at my age.


As Scott points out, both these lenses are very well stabilised when mounted to their intended camera body.



Jan 15, 2024 at 05:37 PM
BeatX
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · Really dislike the size of these lenses


Vento wrote:
Especially lenses like the Z 50mm f/1.8 S, the Z 85mm f/1.8 S, the Z 20/1.8 S, are optically on an enormously high level, there is


I disagre
There is a quite room for improvement in mentioned Nikon Z f/1.8 primes, compared to direct competition from Sony E-mount

https://www.lenstip.com/587.4-Lens_review-Nikon_Nikkor_Z_20_mm_f_1.8_S_Image_resolution.html
https://www.lenstip.com/629.4-Lens_review-Sony_FE_20_mm_f_1.8_G_Image_resolution.html

https://www.lenstip.com/576.4-Lens_review-Nikon_Nikkor_Z_35_mm_f_1.8_S_Image_resolution.html
https://www.lenstip.com/597.4-Lens_review-Sigma_C_35_mm_f_2_DG_DN_Image_resolution.html

https://www.lenstip.com/577.4-Lens_review-Nikon_Nikkor_Z_50_mm_f_1.8_S_Image_resolution.html
https://www.lenstip.com/655.4-Lens_review-Sigma_C_50_mm_f_2_DG_DN_Image_resolution.html

Nikkor f/1.8 primes are bigger, heavier and more ugly looking (imho) compared to competition:
https://camerasize.com/compact/#862.865,883.876,ha,t
https://camerasize.com/compact/#862.785,883.952,ha,t
https://camerasize.com/compact/#862.786,883.1097,ha,t

Plus on top of that, Sony E-mount lens selection has Carl Zeiss f/1.8 primes, or f/2.5 Sony primes, as well as cheap as hell, compatc and light Samyang f/1.8 primes with very decent IQ.

f/1.8 primes are not strongest point in Nikon Z mount imho.
Its Nikon Z standard zooms - especially Nikkor 24-70/4 kit lens, superb Nikkor 24-120/4 S, and telephoto offerings what makes Z mount very interesting.



Jan 16, 2024 at 03:37 PM
coralnut
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · Really dislike the size of these lenses


johnvanr wrote:
I totally agree with you. I have large lenses, but only for specialized uses. It’s why I prefer Leica M mount lenses and MFT gear. I don’t get why we can’t have a digital version of the Contax G system, FF and AF with excellent lenses in a small package.


It's because Nikon expects you to pay by the ounce for glass.



Jan 16, 2024 at 07:22 PM
Oscarsmadness
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · Really dislike the size of these lenses


coralnut wrote:
It's because Nikon expects you to pay by the ounce for glass.


Whether this is true or not, I have this sentiment.



Jan 16, 2024 at 07:43 PM
David Baldwin
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · Really dislike the size of these lenses


I frequently use my Nikkor 20mm F1.8 Z at full aperture. The resolution is unbelievable. Don't understand how anyone could be disatisfied.

As for size, well the large number of elements delivers, among other things, excellent coma control which means that this lens is already a classic choice for astrophotographers.

There is life, and there are charts:

"The Nikon Z 20mm f/1.8 S is an uncompromising, wide prime lens"

"pin-sharp edge-to-edge clarity"

https://www.space.com/nikon-z-20mm-f1.8-s-lens-review



Jan 17, 2024 at 03:55 AM
Ripolini
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · Really dislike the size of these lenses


David Baldwin wrote:
I frequently use my Nikkor 20mm F1.8 Z at full aperture. The resolution is unbelievable. Don't understand how anyone could be disatisfied.


By looking at the tests linked above, I understand that the Sony 20/1.8 GM is sharper; that's different from saying that the Z 20/1.8 isn't sharp. Simply, it isn't as sharp (according to those tests), in particular at the wider apertures.

David Baldwin wrote:
As for size, well the large number of elements delivers, among other things, excellent coma control which means that this lens is already a classic choice for astrophotographers.


According to the same tests, the Z 20/1.8S suffers from coma (see here) even at f/2.5, so I wonder how some people report "excellent coma control". Did Lenstip test a faulty Z 20/1.8S sample

David Baldwin wrote:
There is life, and there are charts


There are tests, measurements, images ... and there are words, chatters, etc. ...




Jan 17, 2024 at 04:06 AM
groob
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · Really dislike the size of these lenses




BeatX wrote:
I disagre
There is a quite room for improvement in mentioned Nikon Z f/1.8 primes, compared to direct competition from Sony E-mount

https://www.lenstip.com/587.4-Lens_review-Nikon_Nikkor_Z_20_mm_f_1.8_S_Image_resolution.html
https://www.lenstip.com/629.4-Lens_review-Sony_FE_20_mm_f_1.8_G_Image_resolution.html

https://www.lenstip.com/576.4-Lens_review-Nikon_Nikkor_Z_35_mm_f_1.8_S_Image_resolution.html
https://www.lenstip.com/597.4-Lens_review-Sigma_C_35_mm_f_2_DG_DN_Image_resolution.html

https://www.lenstip.com/577.4-Lens_review-Nikon_Nikkor_Z_50_mm_f_1.8_S_Image_resolution.html
https://www.lenstip.com/655.4-Lens_review-Sigma_C_50_mm_f_2_DG_DN_Image_resolution.html

Nikkor f/1.8 primes are bigger, heavier and more ugly looking (imho) compared to competition:
https://camerasize.com/compact/#862.865,883.876,ha,t
https://camerasize.com/compact/#862.785,883.952,ha,t
https://camerasize.com/compact/#862.786,883.1097,ha,t

Plus on top of that, Sony E-mount lens selection has Carl Zeiss f/1.8 primes, or f/2.5 Sony primes, as well as cheap as hell, compatc and light Samyang f/1.8 primes with very decent IQ.

f/1.8 primes are not strongest point in Nikon Z mount imho.
Its Nikon Z standard zooms - especially Nikkor 24-70/4 kit lens, superb Nikkor 24-120/4 S, and telephoto offerings what makes Z mount very
...Show more

Cool. Please post an image where one can see a difference.



Jan 17, 2024 at 05:38 AM
akul
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · Really dislike the size of these lenses


Ripolini wrote:
By looking at the tests linked above, I understand that the Sony 20/1.8 GM is sharper; that's different from saying that the Z 20/1.8 isn't sharp. Simply, it isn't as sharp (according to those tests), in particular at the wider apertures.

According to the same tests, the Z 20/1.8S suffers from coma (see here) even at f/2.5, so I wonder how some people report "excellent coma control". Did Lenstip test a faulty Z 20/1.8S sample

There are tests, measurements, images ... and there are words, chatters, etc. ...



Nikon 20mm/1.8 S seems to be a super shape lens, but Sony 20mm/1.8 somehow beats it. It doesn’t make Nikon a bad lens, but Sony just seems un real. Especially the wide open performance is just something else. Photography Life’s test also supports the result.

https://photographylife.com/reviews/sony-fe-20mm-f-1-8-g#sharpness-comparisons

What makes really interesting is that Sony is cheaper and smaller than Nikon. As I keep searching a lightweight UW prime for a light weight kit, this lens becomes very attractive. One great thing about the Z system is its adaptability.

Luka



Jan 17, 2024 at 05:56 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · Really dislike the size of these lenses


Ripolini wrote:
By looking at the tests linked above, I understand that the Sony 20/1.8 GM is sharper; that's different from saying that the Z 20/1.8 isn't sharp. Simply, it isn't as sharp (according to those tests), in particular at the wider apertures.

According to the same tests, the Z 20/1.8S suffers from coma (see here) even at f/2.5, so I wonder how some people report "excellent coma control". Did Lenstip test a faulty Z 20/1.8S sample

There are tests, measurements, images ... and there are words, chatters, etc. ...



If you compare the Z 20 f/1.8S and the Sony 20 f/1.8 G, both lenses are excellent, but both lenses have their weaknesses. The Sony has outstanding center sharpness even at the widest apertures, but until f/2.8 its edge and corner sharpness lags the Nikon Z lens. Another way to say this is that the Nikon lens at wider apertures has more even sharpness across the field but does not reach the peak of sharpness of the Sony lens in the center at wide apertures or even fully at stopped down apertures. Now on this issue of which sharpness profile one prefers, I prefer the Nikon profile as I dislike big differences in sharpness across the field (at least for a lens with this wide a focal length I can even appreciate better center sharpness with reduced sharpness at the edges and corners in a portrait lens). But sharpness isn't everything. Other characteristics matter.

The Sony has excellent coma control and beats the Nikon in that regard and this would be particularly important for those that shoot astrophotography. In contrast the Nikon has better resistance to flare than the Sony and that may be particularly important to those who shoot landscapes. Personally, I think the Nikon lens is a little better for landscapes than the Sony (at least the way I shoot landscapes) but the Sony could be better for other types of shooting (e.g., if I shot music in a lot of dark nightclubs that would play to the Sony's strengths and mitigate its weaknesses). Both are good general purpose wide angle lenses, but neither, IMO, is a great astro lens (the Nikon has too much coma at wide apertures, and although the Sony does better with regard to coma it has weaknesses at edge and corner resolution).

And that is just at 20mm, suffice it to say that in my view any one who says look at these reviews at the one site and focuses on just resolution is engaging in a shallow analysis. When you really look and do careful comparisons there are pluses and minuses to all the lenses mentioned and these reviews don't even touch on other important ones (e.g., focus breathing if you are going to shoot video). In my view, the f/1.8 S lenses are all very good lenses, but not without their weaknesses. The important thing to know is what the weaknesses are and how they will impact your shooting. Only then can you know whether the Sony version might be better for you or not. The Sony G lenses in particular are quite good lenses. The Sigma i series lenses are also quite good lenses. Whether those lenses are better for you than the Nikon f/1.8 S lenses, however, depends in my view on a much more nuanced analysis than simply looking at resolution testing of just one lens from each brand at one web site.



Jan 17, 2024 at 07:05 AM
 


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snapsy
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · Really dislike the size of these lenses


Steve Spencer wrote:
If you compare the Z 20 f/1.8S and the Sony 20 f/1.8 G, both lenses are excellent, but both lenses have their weaknesses. The Sony has outstanding center sharpness even at the widest apertures, but until f/2.8 its edge and corner sharpness lags the Nikon Z lens. Another way to say this is that the Nikon lens at wider apertures has more even sharpness across the field but does not reach the peak of sharpness of the Sony lens in the center at wide apertures or even fully at stopped down apertures. Now on this issue of which sharpness
...Show more

Hmmm, Cameralabs has tested both and said Sony is sharper across the frame, ie into the corners.

https://www.cameralabs.com/nikon-z-20mm-f1-8-s-review/4/

Dustin Abbot said the Sony has good corners as well:

https://dustinabbott.net/2020/06/sony-fe-20mm-f1-8-g-review/



Jan 17, 2024 at 07:24 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · Really dislike the size of these lenses


snapsy wrote:
Hmmm, Cameralabs has tested both and said Sony is sharper across the frame, ie into the corners.

https://www.cameralabs.com/nikon-z-20mm-f1-8-s-review/4/

Dustin Abbot said the Sony has good corners as well:

https://dustinabbott.net/2020/06/sony-fe-20mm-f1-8-g-review/


Yep, the problem of testing just one lens at each test site. You typically do not get consistent results across sites. Could be copy variation, but there aren't enough lenses tested even across test sites to know whether that is a problem or not. We often know a lot less about resolution than we think from the very small sample of lenses that are tested and especially when they are tested across multiple sites with different methodologies at each site.



Jan 17, 2024 at 07:28 AM
snapsy
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · Really dislike the size of these lenses


Steve Spencer wrote:
Yep, the problem of testing just one lens at each test site. You typically do not get consistent results across sites. Could be copy variation, but there aren't enough lenses tested even across test sites to know whether that is a problem or not. We often know a lot less about resolution than we think from the very small sample of lenses that are tested and especially when they are tested across multiple sites with different methodologies at each site.


Agreed, but Gordon is particularly careful about checking for decentering and highlighting the sharpest edge/corner. He also includes a tilted landscape shot for evaluation across the frame at infinity:

https://www.cameralabs.com/sony-fe-20mm-f1-8-g-review/2/
https://www.cameralabs.com/nikon-z-20mm-f1-8-s-review/2/



Jan 17, 2024 at 07:35 AM
Ripolini
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · Really dislike the size of these lenses


Steve Spencer wrote:
...When you really look and do careful comparisons there are pluses and minuses to all the lenses mentioned and these reviews don't even touch on other important ones (e.g., focus breathing if you are going to shoot video). In my view, the f/1.8 S lenses are all very good lenses, but not without their weaknesses. The important thing to know is what the weaknesses are and how they will impact your shooting. Only then can you know whether the Sony version might be better for you or not. The Sony G lenses in particular are quite good lenses. The
...Show more

Steve, your analysis is impeccable as usual.
However, let me stress that this thread deals with Z lenses' size, which doesn't seem directly related to their "overall" quality (not just sharpness, as you pointed out).
I'm not a Sony user, however I'm interested in FE lenses (third party E-mount lenses included) in that I could adapt them to my Z camera. Sony has introduced some really good glass (e.g., 16-35/2.8 GM II, 70-200 GM II both f/4 and f/2.8, etc.), smaller than similar lenses and performing even better. I agree with Luka:

akul wrote:
What makes really interesting is that Sony is cheaper and smaller than Nikon. As I keep searching a lightweight UW prime for a light weight kit, this lens becomes very attractive. One great thing about the Z system is its adaptability.





Jan 17, 2024 at 07:35 AM
BeatX
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · Really dislike the size of these lenses


groob wrote:
Cool. Please post an image where one can see a difference.


Sure, here You have sample shots from lenstip.com sample gallery (please, pay attention to corner sharpness)

Viltrox 13/1.4 (@f/1.4)


Nikkor 20/1.8 S (@f/2)


Sony 20/1.8 G (@f/2)


And just as a fun fact, Pana-leica 9/1.7 (@f/2)


Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Nikkor 20/1.8 S is bad lens.
Its performance is good to very good, but fact remains that Sony 20/1.8 G is better in so many ways when it comes to IQ (lab tests/reviews confirms that)
Plus Sony is much smaller, lighter, little cheaper, nicer looking and has aperture ring

Nikkor Z 20/1.8 S is good lens, but from such legendary company as Nikon, I would expect that this lens have better performance than made in China Viltrox 13/1.4 and way better than from humble Panasonic Leica 9/1.7

Like I said before, imho it's Nikons standard zooms (24-70/4, and 24-120/4) plus telephoto lens selections is best reason to get into this system. Not for f/1.8 primes, for sure
Nikon color science is also very nice (way nicer than Sony if You ask me)



Jan 17, 2024 at 07:52 AM
Alistair1
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · Really dislike the size of these lenses


https://youtu.be/7p3RlL4hZLg?si=Blzm6xobhcx89rJu
Here is a slightly different spin on the 20mm debate. The great thing about internet reviews, you can always find your preferred outcome.



Jan 17, 2024 at 08:15 AM
akul
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · Really dislike the size of these lenses


BeatX wrote:
I disagre
There is a quite room for improvement in mentioned Nikon Z f/1.8 primes, compared to direct competition from Sony E-mount

https://www.lenstip.com/587.4-Lens_review-Nikon_Nikkor_Z_20_mm_f_1.8_S_Image_resolution.html
https://www.lenstip.com/629.4-Lens_review-Sony_FE_20_mm_f_1.8_G_Image_resolution.html

https://www.lenstip.com/576.4-Lens_review-Nikon_Nikkor_Z_35_mm_f_1.8_S_Image_resolution.html
https://www.lenstip.com/597.4-Lens_review-Sigma_C_35_mm_f_2_DG_DN_Image_resolution.html

https://www.lenstip.com/577.4-Lens_review-Nikon_Nikkor_Z_50_mm_f_1.8_S_Image_resolution.html
https://www.lenstip.com/655.4-Lens_review-Sigma_C_50_mm_f_2_DG_DN_Image_resolution.html

Nikkor f/1.8 primes are bigger, heavier and more ugly looking (imho) compared to competition:
https://camerasize.com/compact/#862.865,883.876,ha,t
https://camerasize.com/compact/#862.785,883.952,ha,t
https://camerasize.com/compact/#862.786,883.1097,ha,t

Plus on top of that, Sony E-mount lens selection has Carl Zeiss f/1.8 primes, or f/2.5 Sony primes, as well as cheap as hell, compatc and light Samyang f/1.8 primes with very decent IQ.

f/1.8 primes are not strongest point in Nikon Z mount imho.
Its Nikon Z standard zooms - especially Nikkor 24-70/4 kit lens, superb Nikkor 24-120/4 S, and telephoto offerings what makes Z mount very
...Show more

I disagree. Z 1.8 lenses are quite high in optical quality. They may not be the sharpest Iin comparison to some competitors today, but that doesn’t mean they’re bad in any ways either. Also. Z primes tend to have little focus breathing which makes it better for the video as well as focus stacking.

Luka



Jan 17, 2024 at 08:50 AM
RoamingScott
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · Really dislike the size of these lenses


The lenstip samples of the Nikon and Sony were shot from completely different places/perspectives, there is no apple to apple comparison to make there. The Nikon shot looks mis-focused.


Jan 17, 2024 at 09:00 AM
vaptre
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · Really dislike the size of these lenses


When I bought my 85/1.8 Z there were 4 lenses I rejected because of misalignment issues. It was an official Nikon store. NPS was there. We tested them together and all these lenses were faulty. I had only one question: how it is possible to make such simple portrait lens so bad?

I was really disappointed with Nikon quality control. So I’m not wondering with 20mm bugs.



Jan 17, 2024 at 09:01 AM
BeatX
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · Really dislike the size of these lenses


RoamingScott wrote:
The lenstip samples of the Nikon and Sony were shot from completely different places/perspectives, there is no apple to apple comparison to make there. The Nikon shot looks mis-focused.


I would say, they shoot sample images from nearly identical perspective and from same spot (check sample images I've linked)
And, lenstip.com runs professional tests in controlled environment.
I had many lenses in my photo carrier, and most of lenses I've had was tested on lenstip.com
Their conclusions matches almost always with my observations.
I trust lenstip.com portal like no other, when it comes to reliability of lens and camera reviews.

Lenstip.com simply will tell/show You truth about optics and sensors.
Same, as lenstip.com have open my eyes, when I was discussing with you (in Fuji forum section) about whether the Sony A7RIII 40Mpix sensor has more sharpness, than Fuji X-Trans V 40Mpix sensor
Measurement and sample shots was ultimate evidence, that Sony's sensor has more sharpness than Fuji, yet both have more-less same pixel resolution.

PS. why is that, when some test/review shows clearly superiority of one lens vs another, folks tend to say: "they had bad copy", or "pictures was missfocused"



Jan 17, 2024 at 09:28 AM
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