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Voigtländer VM 12mm vs 15?

  
 
j.liam
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Voigtländer VM 12mm vs 15?


I’ve been contemplating an ultra wide for my M10 but can’t decide. Is the 12mm (only available 2nd hand) too limiting because of its radical FOV? Is the 15 a better choice all around? The 15 is a stop faster and sharper optically but still the 12 beckons. All experiences, thoughts and opinions would be appreciated.


Nov 22, 2023 at 06:54 AM
rji2goleez
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Voigtländer VM 12mm vs 15?


I would say it depends on you! I own the 10mm and the 15mm but find myself using the 15mm much more. I also own the Sony 12-24/2.8 and often times use it at 12-18mm. So, it depends on what you shoot and whether you want that super wide look.

I love my 15mm, great colors, sunstars and easier to control for off-plane distortion. But, some like that!



Nov 22, 2023 at 07:52 AM
josh-himes
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Voigtländer VM 12mm vs 15?


Laowa is set to release an M mount 15mm 5.6 "Cookie" (pancake) lens on Dec 5th. I would hold off until that comes out, as the Laowa wide angles have been better than the Voigtlanders across the board. Most likely because all of the VM options are dated.

If you want something right now that works great on M cameras, I would highly recommend either the Laowa 15 F2, or the 12-24 f5.6 zoom. Both are superlative performers and far better than any other M mount ultra wide options, but both are also somewhat larger than normal for M mount. The upcoming 15mm Cookie will have a 39mm filter thread and probably become the best/smallest M mount ultrawide available, if the performance scales accordingly.



Nov 22, 2023 at 09:34 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Voigtländer VM 12mm vs 15?


j.liam wrote:
I’ve been contemplating an ultra wide for my M10 but can’t decide. Is the 12mm (only available 2nd hand) too limiting because of its radical FOV? Is the 15 a better choice all around? The 15 is a stop faster and sharper optically but still the 12 beckons. All experiences, thoughts and opinions would be appreciated.


Here are how they perform at infinity:

12mm:
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1659827/0#15320732

15mm:
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1659827/9#15327754

I hope this helps!



Nov 22, 2023 at 09:39 AM
j.liam
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Voigtländer VM 12mm vs 15?


josh-himes wrote:
Laowa is set to release an M mount 15mm 5.6 "Cookie" (pancake) lens on Dec 5th. I would hold off until that comes out, as the Laowa wide angles have been better than the Voigtlanders across the board. Most likely because all of the VM options are dated.

If you want something right now that works great on M cameras, I would highly recommend either the Laowa 15 F2, or the 12-24 f5.6 zoom. Both are superlative performers and far better than any other M mount ultra wide options, but both are also somewhat larger than normal for M mount.
...Show more

Appreciate the suggestions but Chinese disposables are not on my agenda.

Edited on Nov 22, 2023 at 09:45 AM · View previous versions



Nov 22, 2023 at 09:43 AM
j.liam
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Voigtländer VM 12mm vs 15?


Fred Miranda wrote:
Here are how they perform at infinity:

12mm:
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1659827/0#15320732

15mm:
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1659827/9#15327754

I hope this helps!


Thank you! Will study it carefully.



Nov 22, 2023 at 09:44 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Voigtländer VM 12mm vs 15?


josh-himes wrote:
Laowa is set to release an M mount 15mm 5.6 "Cookie" (pancake) lens on Dec 5th. I would hold off until that comes out, as the Laowa wide angles have been better than the Voigtlanders across the board. Most likely because all of the VM options are dated.

If you want something right now that works great on M cameras, I would highly recommend either the Laowa 15 F2, or the 12-24 f5.6 zoom. Both are superlative performers and far better than any other M mount ultra wide options, but both are also somewhat larger than normal for M mount.
...Show more

I have the Laowa 10/4 Cookie (Fuji X) and it's outstanding. Nice to see they develop a M-mount version.



Nov 22, 2023 at 10:22 AM
retrofocus
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Voigtländer VM 12mm vs 15?


In my case I like the 12 mm FL which fills the bracket nicely up to 21 mm. 12 mm is ideal in smaller indoor spaces and for less common close-up views in sceneries. I rarely use it outdoors. I never felt the need to have a focal length in between 12 and 21 mm.

Here is one example taken with the Leica MM246 and the CV 12/5.6 II lens used outdoors:


Below an indoors photo taken with the same lens:



Nov 22, 2023 at 10:25 AM
josh-himes
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Voigtländer VM 12mm vs 15?


Fred Miranda wrote:
I have the Laowa 10/4 Cookie (Fuji X) and it's outstanding. Nice to see they develop a M-mount version.


Yes, Laowa has some really innovative Ultrawide and Macro lenses. In 2016 I bought their 12mm 2.8 in Nikon F mount. I have used that lens for countless work shoots and am still impressed by its performance and build quality. Their 9mm 5.6 is hands down the highest performing M mount Ultrawide and their other offerings aren't far behind. They understand the need for filters and even designed a working filter solution for that 9mm lens, which was no small feat.

If the new 15mm cookie is even a decent performer, it will be wonderful, considering the compact size and 39mm filter thread. It's a shame that Voigtlander hasn't updated their Ultrawide offerings...I'm sure they could come up with a high performance compact lens as well.



Nov 22, 2023 at 12:31 PM
MAubrey
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Voigtländer VM 12mm vs 15?


j.liam wrote:
Appreciate the suggestions but Chinese disposables are not on my agenda.


Nothing disposable about the lenses Laowa has been making.



Nov 22, 2023 at 01:58 PM
 


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j.liam
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Voigtländer VM 12mm vs 15?


MAubrey wrote:
Nothing disposable about the lenses Laowa has been making.


Perhaps. It's a mixed bag with Chinese lenses and am not interested spending money on them. I was seeking comments on the Cosina ultra-wides.



Nov 22, 2023 at 03:49 PM
hkrazerx
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Voigtländer VM 12mm vs 15?


I am interested in one of the Laowa L mount shift lenses and need to decide between the 20mm and 15mm. So far the Perspective Control mode in the SL2 is more than good enough to correct converging lines. Perhaps a Voigtlander 10mm is sufficient? The SL2 has plenty of pixels for the crop.


Nov 22, 2023 at 09:37 PM
Peire
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Voigtländer VM 12mm vs 15?


I have Voigtlander 10/5.6 and 15/4.5 in Sony FE mount.Tested 12/5.6 FE as well.15/4.5 is the best overall,i.e. corner smearing disappears at f8-11,whereas on both 12/5.6 and 15/5.6 it is visible,no matter the aperture.


Nov 23, 2023 at 05:07 AM
crf59
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Voigtländer VM 12mm vs 15?


Since your original post was about an M mount lens, I'll toss in my two cents. As a reference point, I have the 15mm 4.5 current version VM, Tri-Elmar WATE, 21mm Zeiss ZM, and 21 SEM. No, the 15mm is not as good across the board as the Tri-Elmar is. Stopped down at f8, the WATE is universally excellent. BUT, the VM is by no means a slouch and, at the price, is a very good lens. My experience is the M body performance is better than Fred's Sony mount lenses demonstrated. The most recent design offers great colors and contrast and good center sharpness. Some falloff at the edges, but not bad at all.

The lens is well built and way ahead of the Chinese-branded lenses in that regard. I'm an engineer and am geeky about materials and fit and finish. The alloys used in the Chinese lenses tend to be lower grade (sometimes what appears to be 4000-series instead of the more corrosion-resistant 5000- and 6000-series aluminum). Also, their anodizing is inferior and machining not as precise. All built to a price point. Anyway, the VM is a great lens for the price.



Nov 23, 2023 at 07:02 AM
SlowDriver
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Voigtländer VM 12mm vs 15?


retrofocus wrote:
In my case I like the 12 mm FL which fills the bracket nicely up to 21 mm. 12 mm is ideal in smaller indoor spaces and for less common close-up views in sceneries. I rarely use it outdoors. I never felt the need to have a focal length in between 12 and 21 mm.

Here is one example taken with the Leica MM246 and the CV 12/5.6 II lens used outdoors:
https://martinbluhm.zenfolio.com/img/s/v-10/p3197480613-5.jpg


Below an indoors photo taken with the same lens:
https://martinbluhm.zenfolio.com/img/s/v-10/p1124415053-5.jpg


Eastern State Penitentiary the last picture?



Nov 23, 2023 at 08:00 AM
j.liam
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Voigtländer VM 12mm vs 15?



crf59 wrote:
Since your original post was about an M mount lens, I'll toss in my two cents. As a reference point, I have the 15mm 4.5 current version VM, Tri-Elmar WATE, 21mm Zeiss ZM, and 21 SEM. No, the 15mm is not as good across the board as the Tri-Elmar is. Stopped down at f8, the WATE is universally excellent. BUT, the VM is by no means a slouch and, at the price, is a very good lens. My experience is the M body performance is better than Fred's Sony mount lenses demonstrated. The most recent design offers great colors and
...Show more

Appreciate your thorough analysis. I was reviewing Fred’s work and wondered about the Sony images compared to what the M performance would be. Also appreciate your engineer’s insight into the materials quality from these new, pop-up lens makers.



Nov 23, 2023 at 10:21 AM
retrofocus
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Voigtländer VM 12mm vs 15?


SlowDriver wrote:
Eastern State Penitentiary the last picture?


Yes! Taken several years ago.



Nov 23, 2023 at 11:36 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Voigtländer VM 12mm vs 15?


j.liam wrote:
Appreciate your thorough analysis. I was reviewing Fred’s work and wondered about the Sony images compared to what the M performance would be. Also appreciate your engineer’s insight into the materials quality from these new, pop-up lens makers.


The CV 15/4.5 III M-mount lens works equally well on both Sony and Leica sensors. There's no difference in performance, even at f/4.5. It's worth noting that this lens is not a new design, and Cosina didn't make any tweaks for the E-mount version. So, you can expect the same performance and optical design on both systems. I've tested this extensively, and I can say with 100% certainty that there's no improvement on the Leica side.

The Voigtlander 15mm lens outperforms the 12mm lens across the entire field, although the 12mm is still quite capable. There are currently better 12mm lenses available. However, what makes the Voigtlander stand out is its size, superior color rendition, excellent flare resistance, and well-defined sunstars.



Nov 23, 2023 at 11:45 AM
j.liam
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Voigtländer VM 12mm vs 15?


Thanks, Fred. The 12 doesn’t ever seem to fully sharpen up in the corners, no matter how far it’s stopped down. Too small an image circle?


Nov 23, 2023 at 12:15 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Voigtländer VM 12mm vs 15?


j.liam wrote:
Thanks, Fred. The 12 doesn’t ever seem to fully sharpen up in the corners, no matter how far it’s stopped down. Too small an image circle?


Yes, at f/8-11 it's ok at the very corners but never great.



Nov 23, 2023 at 02:32 PM







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