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R5's ISO-Invariance - a happy discovery for shooting Owls at dawn and dusk

Zenon Char
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · R5's ISO-Invariance - a happy discovery for shooting Owls at dawn and dusk

Rudy Pohl wrote:
Here's a closeup comparison. Please note the fine highlight feather details in the face. The underexposed-recovered image can by finessed in Photoshop into an half-decent acceptable image while the ISO 25,600 cannot.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53348570006_d7ae96052f_h.jpg

I see that the High ISO shot has been pushed 1.5 stops which is a lot for high ISO. Do you try it at an exposure where you didn't need to raise it or ETTR?

Edited on Nov 22, 2023 at 11:18 AM · View previous versions

Nov 22, 2023 at 11:12 AM

Zenon Char
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · R5's ISO-Invariance - a happy discovery for shooting Owls at dawn and dusk

I guess I'll have to try it. I wish I had of tried this here. ISO 20000

Canon EOS R7 RF100-500mm F4.5-7.1 L IS USM lens 500mm f/7.1 1/5000s 20000 ISO +1.0 EV

Nov 22, 2023 at 11:17 AM

Rudy Pohl
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · R5's ISO-Invariance - a happy discovery for shooting Owls at dawn and dusk

I pushed the high-ISO image 1.5 stops in post in order to bring it to the same brightness level as the other image in the comparison post of the two images. I thought I needed to do that for some reason. I actually was not going to bother processing or posting this high-ISO image except that someone here wanted to see it.

As I wrote above if I were ever to share on this topic again I would do a carefully controlled photo shoot comparing ISO levels. This shoot was not carefully controlled at all. I was shooting an active hunting Owl that flew and changed branches every 15 to 20 seconds and it just after sunset in rapidly fading light. I was simply trying to get any shot I possibility could.

None of the high ISO shots which I set at 25,600 based on my estimate of the histogram in my EVF turned out, but the two accidently made ISO 1000 shots did. All my shutter speeds were set at 1/1600 secs because I was hoping to get a flight shot.

Rudy

Nov 22, 2023 at 11:25 AM

Jeff Nolten
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · R5's ISO-Invariance - a happy discovery for shooting Owls at dawn and dusk

Jeff wrote:
Nope, sorry. Well, I mean, you can certainly use it, but...

Thanks. I have both the RF 16 f2.8 and 14-35 f4 L for traveling with my R5 and I'd like to not take both. I'll have to experiment. My thought is for e.g. 16mm milky way shots to set max aperture and ISO 1600, focus, and then use exposure compensation to bring the exposure time down to about 30 seconds if possible. The 14-35 is more versatile travel lens than the 16. Sorry for the OT digression.

Edited on Nov 22, 2023 at 11:39 AM · View previous versions

Nov 22, 2023 at 11:37 AM

Rudy Pohl
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · R5's ISO-Invariance - a happy discovery for shooting Owls at dawn and dusk

Zenon Char wrote:
I guess I'll have to try it. I wish I had of tried this here. ISO 20000

As I wrote above, I'm way out of my technical comfort zone in this area, but in my experience I've noticed that all ISOs are not created equal. What I mean by this is that when I shoot on a nice bright day I can generate a high-ISO image simply by cranking the shutter speed way up. This leaves the impression that the camera does really well at high ISO.

However, when photographing in a dimly lit, shade filled forest, or worse, doing it at dawn or dusk, you can crank up the ISO all you want and you still can't get a decent image.

I can't explain these things with technical explanations and charts, but I found this to be the case by doing it.

Nov 22, 2023 at 11:38 AM

Zenon Char
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · R5's ISO-Invariance - a happy discovery for shooting Owls at dawn and dusk

Rudy Pohl wrote:
As I wrote above, I'm way out of my technical comfort zone in this area, but in my experience I've noticed that all ISOs are not created equal. What I mean by this is that when I shoot on a nice bright day I can generate a high-ISO image simply by cranking the shutter speed way up. This leaves the impression that the camera does really well at high ISO.

However, when photographing in a dimly lit, shade filled forest, or worse, doing it at dawn or dusk, you can crank up the ISO all you want and you still...Show more →

Thanks for replying. It makes sense. My only concerns are lower SS. Not 1/400 but getting into 1/15. IS pretty good these days.

Nov 22, 2023 at 11:48 AM

Rudy Pohl
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · R5's ISO-Invariance - a happy discovery for shooting Owls at dawn and dusk

Zenon Char wrote:
Thanks for replying. It makes sense. My only concerns are lower SS. Not 1/400 but getting into 1/15. IS pretty good these days.

I've had quite a few people respond to this thread here at FM and in the same thread I posted on DP Review. Some of them wrote that they've quite good results with the R5 and R6 by doing the following:

1. They limit their ISO to somewhere between 1600 and 3200.
2. They disable the Exposure Simulation on their EVF so they can continue to see the subject in fading light and the AF continues working.
3. They just keep shooting as the light continues to fade until the end of the photo session without changing the ISO setting.
4. In post they recover the exposure in each image as required. The images taken later in the session will require more recovery.

With this method they get the best of both worlds. If I understand it correctly, if you set the camera to ISO 3200 then an image that requires an ISO level of 20,000 will have 3200 units of ISO contributed by the camera and 16,800 ISO units contributed in post. Seems like a good solution.

Anyways, it makes sense to me and I will be trying that approach the next time I go out with the Owls.

Cheers,
Rudy

Rudy

Nov 22, 2023 at 12:09 PM

Zenon Char
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · R5's ISO-Invariance - a happy discovery for shooting Owls at dawn and dusk

Rudy Pohl wrote:
I've had quite a few people respond to this thread here at FM and in the same thread I posted on DP Review. Some of them wrote that they've quite good results with the R5 and R6 by doing the following:

1. They limit their ISO to somewhere between 1600 and 3200.
2. They disable the Exposure Simulation on their EVF so they can continue to see the subject in fading light and the AF continues working.
3. They just keep shooting as the light continues to fade until the end of the photo session without changing the ISO setting.
4. In...Show more →

Those ISO limits seem pretty good and I'll try it out. That is going to be very lens speed dependant as well. For BIF in low light it may be a struggle. For static subjects no issues.

Nov 22, 2023 at 12:24 PM

stanj
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · R5's ISO-Invariance - a happy discovery for shooting Owls at dawn and dusk

My personal recipe for success with owls hasn't been a reliance on ISO invariance (perceived or real) but rather on DxO Pure Raw, which at least for this type of photos has a bigger impact on the final result than anything else that I can throw at it. These days I shoot owls predominantly with the R3 but same rules apply.

Canon EOS R5 EF400mm f/2.8L IS III USM lens 400mm f/2.8 1/320s 51200 ISO +1.3 EV

Canon EOS R5 EF400mm f/4 DO IS II USM lens 400mm f/4.0 1/25s 25600 ISO -0.3 EV

Canon EOS R5 RF400mm F2.8 L IS USM lens 400mm f/2.8 1/40s 25600 ISO +1.3 EV

Nov 22, 2023 at 12:49 PM

macwest
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · R5's ISO-Invariance - a happy discovery for shooting Owls at dawn and dusk

I never shoot above 800 iso and have always edited this way . I am always blowing out highlights even with a histogram. Even on my old 5Dsr. That's why I use Capture 1 it allows much more correction with
shadows and highlight sliders , Peace.

Nov 22, 2023 at 12:59 PM

Rudy Pohl
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · R5's ISO-Invariance - a happy discovery for shooting Owls at dawn and dusk

stanj wrote:
My personal recipe for success with owls hasn't been a reliance on ISO invariance (perceived or real) but rather on DxO Pure Raw, which at least for this type of photos has a bigger impact on the final result than anything else that I can throw at it. These days I shoot owls predominantly with the R3 but same rules apply.

Wow! My goodness Stan, these images are just wonderful! I'm so encouraged to see that you did these with an R5.

I have been a Nikon user since 1978 and after years of waiting for Nikon to produce a mirrorless camera that could do decent animal tracking in video mode (the Z9 was too big and too expensive for me) I switched to Canon and bought an R5 a little over a year ago. But I have to be honest and admit I'm still struggling to get the kind of high quality images that I want, especially Owls in low light.

You have just proven me that the R5 can indeed shoot images at ISO 25600 and 51200 that look great ! I'm so amazed to see these.

May I ask a favour of you? May I ask you a few short questions about how you actually go about producing these low-light Owl images?

Rudy

Nov 22, 2023 at 02:45 PM

stanj
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · R5's ISO-Invariance - a happy discovery for shooting Owls at dawn and dusk

Rudy Pohl wrote:
May I ask a favour of you? May I ask you a few short questions about how you actually go about producing these low-light Owl images?

Of course, ask away, but the bottom line is to find a nesting family in the spring and then get some stemina waiting & chasing after them with a long lens at last light

Practice hand holding long glass is also essential because a tripod won't do you no good (as per the chasing part.)

Nov 22, 2023 at 04:27 PM

Rudy Pohl
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · R5's ISO-Invariance - a happy discovery for shooting Owls at dawn and dusk

stanj wrote:
Of course, ask away, but the bottom line is to find a nesting family in the spring and then get some stemina waiting & chasing after them with a long lens at last light

Practice hand holding long glass is also essential because a tripod won't do you no good (as per the chasing part.)

Thanks for your willingness to help. I'll think about a few key questions, but I'll save them until I get some responses to a new thread I just posted about my problems with R5 high ISO raw images.

Regarding stamina and patience I have lots of those and the chasing I do with a monopod which is good for videos as well as stills. Yes, a tripod is too much trouble while thrashing through the bush. I do most of my chasing at sunrise and for the 30 minutes after because evenings don't work well for me.

Here's one from the other morning. It was only ISO 8000 so it still looks not too bad, but the higher ISO images get ugly fast.

Barred Owl, R5, RF100-500, 1/400, f/5.6, ISO 8000

Nov 22, 2023 at 05:01 PM

stanj
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · R5's ISO-Invariance - a happy discovery for shooting Owls at dawn and dusk

Nice owl & foliage. Note that a perched one you can get at 1/20s (and if not, practice), so you still have plenty of light to work with!

Nov 22, 2023 at 05:34 PM

Rudy Pohl
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · R5's ISO-Invariance - a happy discovery for shooting Owls at dawn and dusk

stanj wrote:
Nice owl & foliage. Note that a perched one you can get at 1/20s (and if not, practice), so you still have plenty of light to work with!

Thanks, great suggestion.

Nov 22, 2023 at 05:56 PM

Bill Gass
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · R5's ISO-Invariance - a happy discovery for shooting Owls at dawn and dusk

Rudy,
Thanks for posting pixs and more comments.
Curious if you did the same shoot with your 1000 iso and then 5000, 10000, 15000, 20000 and your 25600.
.
Zenon, beautiful work for iso 2000.
.
stanj...OMG...Beautiful work. For these high iso it must be dam near completely dark outside, how do you focus so good on those or does changing the iso help the focus ?
.
I'm looking at a new Canon R8 for $1039 ( special deal ) then the salesman says...I'll sell you an refurbished R5 for $2750...Now I'm saving every can/bottle I can...

Nov 22, 2023 at 06:45 PM

stanj
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · R5's ISO-Invariance - a happy discovery for shooting Owls at dawn and dusk

Bill Gass wrote:
stanj...OMG...Beautiful work. For these high iso it must be dam near completely dark outside, how do you focus so good on those or does changing the iso help the focus ?

Changing the ISO doesn't help with focus. Today's mirrorless are pretty good at focusing in the dark - in some instances, I can't see the owl with my naked eye, only thru the viewfinder. This means that if I lose track of it then it's time to go home because I'll never find it again

On lucky days I have my son or some other friend in tow, then they can help look where it flies. Usually for no avail.

Nov 22, 2023 at 07:28 PM

nmerc_photos
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · R5's ISO-Invariance - a happy discovery for shooting Owls at dawn and dusk

Rudy Pohl wrote:
I've had quite a few people respond to this thread here at FM and in the same thread I posted on DP Review. Some of them wrote that they've quite good results with the R5 and R6 by doing the following:

1. They limit their ISO to somewhere between 1600 and 3200.
2. They disable the Exposure Simulation on their EVF so they can continue to see the subject in fading light and the AF continues working.
3. They just keep shooting as the light continues to fade until the end of the photo session without changing the ISO setting.
4. In...Show more →

Very interesting findings Rudy.

I love to shoot at near-dark instances for wildlife, and I've always just set my auto ISO to 25,600 or 51,200 and let it bang away (Canon R5, R7, and R3, and now the Nikon Z8 and Z9)

I am now tempted to cap the auto iso around 6,400 or 12,800, turn off exposure simulation and try to recover in post

will be interesting for sure. owling season is just starting for me, so I should have some good high ISO shots soon..

Nov 22, 2023 at 08:06 PM

Rudy Pohl
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · R5's ISO-Invariance - a happy discovery for shooting Owls at dawn and dusk

nmerc_photos wrote:
Very interesting findings Rudy.

I love to shoot at near-dark instances for wildlife, and I've always just set my auto ISO to 25,600 or 51,200 and let it bang away (Canon R5, R7, and R3, and now the Nikon Z8 and Z9)

I am now tempted to cap the auto iso around 6,400 or 12,800, turn off exposure simulation and try to recover in post

will be interesting for sure. owling season is just starting for me, so I should have some good high ISO shots soon..

Sounds good and good luck with your owling. If you have the time please report back here with your findings and if you can post some images that would be great.
Thanks,
Rudy

Nov 22, 2023 at 08:09 PM

Jeff
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · R5's ISO-Invariance - a happy discovery for shooting Owls at dawn and dusk

Jeff Nolten wrote:
Thanks. I have both the RF 16 f2.8 and 14-35 f4 L for traveling with my R5 and I'd like to not take both. I'll have to experiment. My thought is for e.g. 16mm milky way shots to set max aperture and ISO 1600, focus, and then use exposure compensation to bring the exposure time down to about 30 seconds if possible. The 14-35 is more versatile travel lens than the 16. Sorry for the OT digression.

Sounds like this entire thread is now OT.

If you shoot the 14-35 at 35mm and f/4, it will get closer to the 16mm at 2.8 as far as light capture (given the same exposure, but you'll also get increased star trailing). See Roger Clark's site for more info: https://clarkvision.com/articles/nightscapes/

You should use Manual mode if you are shooting at night, there is really no point to using an auto mode. With a 16mm lens you can get away with 20+ seconds before star trailing (also depends on how much you'll accept). At 35mm you need to be closer to 12-15 seconds. Everyone's mileage may vary with this, obviously. Play around with exposures wide open, and then you can decide what looks best to you.

Nov 22, 2023 at 08:14 PM

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