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M11 vs M10 Highlight Clipping

  
 
fecone
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · M11 vs M10 Highlight Clipping


Any M10 users finding that M11 is handling highlight clipping much better? One of the gripes about the M10D is finding certain shots seemingly metered properly but ending with blown highlights. Wondering if this is better handled on M11?


Nov 17, 2023 at 10:24 PM
Nomads
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · M11 vs M10 Highlight Clipping


As far as metering with the M10 cameras (I have the M10R), you have to spend time with this camera and understand how it meters. The meter doesnít really tell you ďthis is exposed correctlyĒ (whatever correctly means) once you frame the shot. What works for me is using the meter as a guide. The M10 forces you to learn exposure, which you really donít when you shoot any other EVF mirrorless camera because the average meter and metering off the sensor takes care of it. The camera tells you what to do and you follow the camera.

I like the way the M10 works better. The more manual the experience the more I understand exposure and the more control I have over it. Maybe I do want to overexpose the highlights. Maybe I donít. It depends.

I see my scene and I move the camera around. I see what the center weighted meter is telling me. I use the 50mm so the 75mm frame lines inside tell me more or less what the camera is using to meter. And I move it around and I see what is over or under. Then I find a happy medium.

It also depends if Iím shooting towards a white wall or water that is being hit by the sun.

Once I know what I want I lock in my settings. Nothing is clipped because I think about this and lock my settings in. I never use AUTO anything either.

Any other automated camera that meters off the sensor, just like every camera out there, you donít have to do this. Just put it on auto and go to town.

Personally, as far as the shooting experience goes, I prefer the latter. Which is another reason why I wonít be upgrading my Leica M digital camera ever. If it fails beyond repair then I can get any other mirrorless automated camera and put it on Multi or Highlight weighted metering, like a Sony, use auto everything and have auto focus , for a much more affordable price.

Basically, as far as Iím concerned, the M10 doesnít clip highlights. The photographer does.



Nov 17, 2023 at 11:53 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · M11 vs M10 Highlight Clipping


I've tested this, and the M10-R and M11 can recover highlights one stop better than the M10, M10-P, and M10-D (all the 24MP models).


Nov 18, 2023 at 12:06 AM
Nomads
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · M11 vs M10 Highlight Clipping


This is true. Comparing my M10P and M10R the raw files of the latter are a lot more malleable. But again the camera doesnít clip a highlight. The photographer is the one in control.

Since the M11 works more like a regular mirrorless camera metering off the sensor, then this camera is better for people who like to take photos using AUTO modes.

If you like manually taking photos (which is the whole point of using a Leica for me) then highlights are never blown or clipped unless you make a mistake in choosing the settings.



Nov 18, 2023 at 02:23 AM
1bwana1
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · M11 vs M10 Highlight Clipping


I find the metering and the control of exposure with the M11 far superior to my M10-P. However, I am able to get proper (meaning the exposure I want) with either. I just manage it differently.

With the M11 I usually shoot with manual aperture, manual shutter speed, and Auto ISO set through the M setting. I have the Rear Wheel set to manage the on sensor Light meter and therefor exposure. When I click it I can choose the meter mode instantly depending on the lighting in the scene I am working. The scroll of the wheel changes the exposure compensation. This gives me a 6 stop exposure adjustment. In use it never really varies by more than 2 stops from the meter, usually much less if I have chosen the proper meter mode. Really the only setting that changes when setting exposure compensation is ISO because A & SS are set on the dials. The effect is a manual camera system that is using the auto function to get to a range that can easily and instantly be adjusted manually.

The end result of all this is that the M11 is the easiest, and fastest camera I have ever had to get exactly the exposure I want. Better than even my A1 with all its advanced A modes.



Nov 18, 2023 at 07:49 AM
1bwana1
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · M11 vs M10 Highlight Clipping


Nomads wrote:
This is true. Comparing my M10P and M10R the raw files of the latter are a lot more malleable. But again the camera doesnít clip a highlight. The photographer is the one in control.

Since the M11 works more like a regular mirrorless camera metering off the sensor, then this camera is better for people who like to take photos using AUTO modes.

If you like manually taking photos (which is the whole point of using a Leica for me) then highlights are never blown or clipped unless you make a mistake in choosing the settings.


The photographer is just as in control with the M11 as the M10-X. I have both M11 and M10-P. The M11 is just more accurate, and is faster to adjust. The M11 has better manual control than the M1-X generation.The metering is far superior on the M11 because it is on the sensor. The reflective metering measured off the front of the shutter on the M10-X is just a guess in comparison.

Malleability is mostly about Dynamic Range. The M10-R and M11 are very close when measured. The M11 being slightly ahead. I think the bigger difference is in the editing experience for some because of resolution. The M11 having so much more that it feels a bit sluggish on many computers. Get a very high powered editing computer and you will see that smoothness come back.

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica%20M10-R,Leica%20M11



Nov 18, 2023 at 09:20 AM
highdesertmesa
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · M11 vs M10 Highlight Clipping


fecone wrote:
Any M10 users finding that M11 is handling highlight clipping much better? One of the gripes about the M10D is finding certain shots seemingly metered properly but ending with blown highlights. Wondering if this is better handled on M11?


This is one of the problems of going back in time and reading about past issues with a camera Ė you have to read to the end of the threads. Once Leica updated the M10's Auto ISO to use ISO 200 as base ISO, the issue was resolved. ISO 100 was not the true base ISO, and using it had an detrimental impact on highlight recovery even when the image was properly exposed.



Nov 18, 2023 at 09:50 AM
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · M11 vs M10 Highlight Clipping


highdesertmesa wrote:
This is one of the problems of going back in time and reading about past issues with a camera Ė you have to read to the end of the threads. Once Leica updated the M10's Auto ISO to use ISO 200 as base ISO, the issue was resolved. ISO 100 was not the true base ISO, and using it had an detrimental impact on highlight recovery even when the image was properly exposed.


Indeed. Base ISO 100 started with the M10-R.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1703545



Nov 18, 2023 at 10:43 AM
 


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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · M11 vs M10 Highlight Clipping


@1bwana1

More accurate on AUTO, yes.

I am deadly accurate every single time with my M10R. Not the camera. Me

Like using old cameras. They all work in their own way. Nothing is standardized accurately. They all have their unique personalities which makes you love a particular camera. It has a personality. You have to use it and get to know it.

Thatís why I prefer using the M10R. Modern mirrorless cameras are generic and have no personality. You put them on auto and WYSIWYG. When the M gets its EVF itíll finally reach general use camera heaven. All people will have to do is move a focusing ring. Good enough for nostalgia when lenses couldnít focus on their own. 😀

P.S: As mentioned with the M10ís except the M10R native base ISO was ISO200. On the M10P it would only go to ISO100 if you manually set it there with the dial, otherwise it would go to ISO200 on auto iso as the lowest ISO. I guess the M10 went to ISO100 on auto.

Again, itís the AUTO causing the problems. Today it was the rare time where I actually chose ISO100. I am usually at ISO400. But if you have an M10 and took the time to get to know that camera you would already know that the highlights misbehaved at ISO100 so you would be aware of that when picking your settings for a particular scene.

Photographer not the camera. With practice you could be 100% accurate every time with an M10.



Nov 18, 2023 at 12:30 PM
1bwana1
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · M11 vs M10 Highlight Clipping


Nomads wrote:
@1bwana1@

More accurate on AUTO, yes. I already said the M11 metering is done like every other mirrorless camera with the sensor. I think everyone knows this.

I am dead on accurate with my M10R every single time. I can do that because I know the camera. I explained how I understand what it is telling me. Again it isnít the camera, itís the photographer.

If you give me an M11 and I use it in the same way I use the M10R, itíll take me a while to understand what it is telling me (what you refer to as ďmore
...Show more

Sounds like you have found the perfect camera for you.

Nomads wrote:
- I get perfect exposure with my M10R and I am not clipping highlights


By more accurate I mean the meter is more accurate so it gives a finer level of information for the photographer to operate on.
The meter gives more information, and can evaluate in more ways. Of course we can all learn to compensate for the capabilities of a light meter or other components when we know the camera well.

I, and most I know don't shoot our Leica M cameras in Auto mode. The M11 can be used to give you exactly the same experience as the M10-R.

The M11 is no where near a WYSIWYG experience when using the Range Finder. It is exactly the same as the M10-R. In fact the M10-R is exactly the same in live view or when using the EVF. It is just better in those two modes than the M10-R.


Nomads wrote:
- It has the perfect file size not forcing you to buy a whole new computer


That is just a personal point on a continuum. There are many M10 24mpx users who would say the same thing about moving to the M10-R. No file size is objectively perfect. The pixel binning capabilities of the M11 can eliminate the need for a new computer. In fact the smallest size can be better worked with on a worse computer than the M10-R files. I don't get your point here.


Nomads wrote:
- as you just pointed out the M10R and the M11 files are very close


Yep, Dynamic range and malleability is not a differentiator between these cameras when each is shot at its maximum resolution. The M11's uniques pixel binning modes just give you more file size options without a crop. The reduced size options have a wonderful side effect. They add a stop of dynamic range making those smaller files more malleable. No down sides to the M11 in this regard. Just more options. One file is not better than another.

Nomads wrote:
- It has all day battery life because the batteries are small and I can just have one in my pocket.


I find the battery life difference to be a much bigger thing than that. I can shoot the M11 for multiple days on a single battery. I would have to switch batteries every day with the M10. It is a small thing, but it matters to some of us.

Nomads wrote:
- It gives me the traditional Leica M operation. I like the clean bottom.


Again personal. I have a half case on my M10-P that includes a flap, and ARCA Swiss capability. I found the film change simulation bottom ridiculous in concept, and a pain. I am glad I found a work around for that. But I never got attached to it by shooting Leica Film cameras.

Nomads wrote:
- Itís less complicated


As in all things, more power and flexibility brings more complications I guess. But I have found that with the new menus and configurable buttons the M11 is much easier and more efficient in actual use. This has resulted in shots I would have not gotten on the M10-R.

Nomads wrote:
- itís brass and not aluminum


My Silver M11 is all brass as well. Once again, personal choices.


In my experience, the M11 takes nothing away. The M10-X cameras are also wonderful. I don't know what the need to rationalize the differences for you are. But most make no objective sense as the M11 can be shot exactly the same. The M11 can be everything that the M10-R can be with some added options/benefits. If those are not attractive to you, save the money and keep shooting the M10-R. You would gain nothing by changing cameras.






Nov 18, 2023 at 12:36 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · M11 vs M10 Highlight Clipping


Hey Steve,

Just a heads up. it's Carlos. He's back after being banned how many times now under how many different names?



Nov 18, 2023 at 01:16 PM
Nomads
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · M11 vs M10 Highlight Clipping


@1bwana1

1) I compare them because this Is a thread comparing them. Otherwise I have no interest in comparing them because I already own a Leica M and I donít need another one.

2) WYSIWYG meaning the future of the M. It is where it is headed.

3) Yes I did find my perfect M.

4) The M11 sensor metering is just like any other modern mirrorless camera with an EVF.

5) I donít see the benefit shooting multiple days on a single battery. I come home and I throw them in the charger while I edit photos. Every time I pick up my M10R itís at 100%. Right now itís in the bag at 100% and I used it today.

6) I donít want to bin any pixels. I want every pixel I paid for all the time. 40MP is more than enough. For some the 24MP is enough, but as you pointed out the 40MP M10R sensor and the files that camera produces are very close to the M11. Between the M10 and the M10R sensor, the M10R has the better sensor. Itís as far as Iím concerned the perfect resolution. Anything beyond that is special use case IMO. The M11 is best used at the full 60MP which to me creates more problems than it solves.

Like the Sony A7iv and future A7V. These are the models for most people and theyíre at 33MP (probably 40MP with the A7V). The other more expensive 60MP+ cameras are just niche use cameras that most people really donít need.

None of this is important though because we are just talking about highlight clipping.

My point remains simple. Cameras donít clip highlights. People do (unless youíre on AUTO, which is not where I want to be on a Leica M).



Nov 18, 2023 at 01:37 PM
1bwana1
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · M11 vs M10 Highlight Clipping


airfrogusmc wrote:
Hey Steve,

Just a heads up. it's Carlos. He's back after being banned how many times now under how many different names?


Oh that is why he makes no sense. Oh well...



Nov 18, 2023 at 01:38 PM
crf59
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · M11 vs M10 Highlight Clipping


I don't normally respond to this sort of post, but can't help myself.

A camera is a tool (though I do like to caress my Leicas on quiet nights....). Anything that improves the performance of the tool is positive in my book. Cars are a perfect example - today's cars are superior in nearly every way to old cars. But yet there is a group that will say "they don't have the soul or character of the old cars". Bunk. If a camera has a better metering system that lowers the effort of the photographer to achieve good results, that's not a negative. It's still up to the photographer to compose, understand all the details at play, and take the photos. I use several Leicas but the metering system of the M11 is a definite improvement over my other Ms. The Sony A series, Canon R series, Nikon Z series cameras and others are superb tools. Exploiting them doesn't make you less of a photographer.

And another "disturbing" eventuality to some is that cameras will no doubt soon have AI algorithms that will do more than evaluate scenes for lighting. Better get used to it. You should see what we do with AI in my work - mind boggling.

I don't think it makes you more creative, worldly, or a better photographer because you can meter light or adjust aperture yourself (OK, I am an aperture priority guy). Happy Thanksgiving!



Nov 23, 2023 at 07:23 AM
fecone
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · M11 vs M10 Highlight Clipping


crf59 wrote:
And another "disturbing" eventuality to some is that cameras will no doubt soon have AI algorithms that will do more than evaluate scenes for lighting. Better get used to it. You should see what we do with AI in my work - mind boggling.

I don't think it makes you more creative, worldly, or a better photographer because you can meter light or adjust aperture yourself (OK, I am an aperture priority guy). Happy Thanksgiving!


completely agree!



Nov 28, 2023 at 09:03 PM







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