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Dear SANTA please make the R1 with

jedibrain
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Dear SANTA please make the R1 with

Jeff wrote:
OK, perhaps I'm daft, but I'm having a hard time understanding the place in Canon's lineup that the R1 (as posited by the rumor mill) would fill. The R3 seems to be the new 1-Series style fast sports-type camera (and expensive), and yet everyone is expecting the R1 to eclipse it as a 'fast', moderate-res camera... and yet-yet, the 1Ds/5Ds has still not been replaced as the MP-monster!

Is there a place in the lineup for two pro-level bodies that do similar things (e.g. a sports-type camera)? If the R3 is technically lacking for that level of camera, why not just...Show more →

My, perhaps unpopular, opinion on the MP thing is this: Canon and most pro shooters have figured out there isn't much to gain from going over 45-60mp. Sony seems to agree. Back in the MP arms race days when the 5DS was launched, at 2x the prevailing average resolution, it was a big splash. But today to drop a 90mp body - I just don't know there is a big market outside of the small but hardcore contingent of forum dwellers (and unfortunately we are not the biggest part of Canon or Sony's market). Its also possible that physics is still in the way. To get those tiny pixels to fit 90-100mp in a 35mm format sensor could still be technologically challenging.

To answer your other question, I think the 1D series will morph in to the video space. As you have mentioned it was previously set apart by speed and build. I think those things will remain, with only build being really differential from the 5 series bodies. But maybe we'll see more video controls. Sort of like an R3 +_R5c in one body. Video is the future.

Brian

Nov 22, 2023 at 09:40 AM

macwest
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Dear SANTA please make the R1 with

r5 will be high megapixel r3 will stay the course with modest increase in my opinion. Happy Thanksgiving all.

Nov 22, 2023 at 09:47 AM

Mike Jacks0n
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Dear SANTA please make the R1 with

jedibrain wrote:
OK, perhaps I'm daft, but I'm having a hard time understanding the place in Canon's lineup that the R1 (as posited by the rumor mill) would fill. The R3 seems to be the new 1-Series style fast sports-type camera (and expensive), and yet everyone is expecting the R1 to eclipse it as a 'fast', moderate-res camera... and yet-yet, the 1Ds/5Ds has still not been replaced as the MP-monster!

Is there a place in the lineup for two pro-level bodies that do similar things (e.g. a sports-type camera)? If the R3 is technically lacking for that level of camera, why not just...Show more →

I'm with you, I think they did some odd stuff with the lineup, but I believe there is a place at the top of the heap for an expensive tech dump (for now). But I do think it will be crazy expensive, and I wouldn't be surprised one bit to see this lineup last only one generation. I can see them breaking up the 1 Series this time around with the R3 and R1, and then combining the 3 Series and 1 Series on the next go around.

Jeff wrote:
My, perhaps unpopular, opinion on the MP thing is this: Canon and most pro shooters have figured out there isn't much to gain from going over 45-60mp. Sony seems to agree. Back in the MP arms race days when the 5DS was launched, at 2x the prevailing average resolution, it was a big splash. But today to drop a 90mp body - I just don't know there is a big market outside of the small but hardcore contingent of forum dwellers (and unfortunately we are not the biggest part of Canon or Sony's market). Its also possible that physics is...Show more →

I think there will always be a market for more pixels. However, the real problem is the smaller the pixels get, the more diffraction plays a part and ruins the extra pixels. That said, I think I would buy an 80-100 megapixel body if it were priced appropriately. But if it is the R1, we can expect it to not be priced to sell. As far as the technological issues, I'm sure they are there, but I'm pretty sure the cracked that egg a while ago considering they have been selling 120MP and 250MP APS-H sensors for the industrial market for years.

I can't argue with the idea that there would be a limited market at $8,000, but I think a $4,000 R5s could sell really well. Not as well as an R5/R6, but well enough.

Nov 22, 2023 at 11:58 PM

PhilH
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Dear SANTA please make the R1 with

The real question when it comes to the R1 is where and how it will differentiate from the R5 and R3 and if there's any relevance to what the 1D and 1Ds of years ago were.

I think safely, Canon is likely working on more Stacked BSI sensor tech as that is the latest trend and something to build on from FSI, though it could be argued FSI is worth still developing on.

Second major point is resolution and speed. If focused on speed, I wouldn't be shocked on the pixel pitch and resolution being the same as the R5 but way higher FPS. Maybe not 120, but perhaps 60. Hard to tell.

If resolution is the goal, Canon has been working on sensors we haven't seen in our cameras yet. Pixel pitch, I don't think they go too small, but I wouldn't be shocked if 84-100 megapixels is the goal. Both the high and low end of that range are really the most likely targets. Oddly I'd be shocked if they land in the 50-65 megapixel range. Mainly as this might be an opportunity to be different.

Hard to tell if Canon keeps the R5 more video centric and place the R1 more in "stills is the priority, but also we have motion in mind".

We're in an interesting time where at the different tiers people are looking for different things. Some don't want/need all the resolution, some do. Some don't need the high frame rates, some really would love that. Some won't buy a camera below a certain resolution at this point and are looking at larger format systems which are evolving, but far from what we have currently as a total package.

Personally I'd like a camera, whether it's the R1 or say R1s with a focus on higher resolution capture with speed not being the priority, but obviously image quality, color, and dynamic range remaining the important focus points.

And though many don't care for it, I think Canon should provide a 16-bit option for stills now. Putting forth this perspective as other higher end or higher priced systems offer these things and for a while.

Price-wise. My 1Ds bodies were around $8K each at the time. Somewhere between $6500-$8000 USD is likely where this beast lands whatever it ends up being if it's positioned above the R5 series. Less expensive cameras will always sell more units, but the goal is to give people a reason to spend that sort of coin on a system. And considering the price of middle format bodies and the general features they are competing in, I suspect this is a realistic perspective.

The additional chaos is also form factor. I'm betting the R1 will have an optional grip rather than share the form factor of the R3, but I could be very wrong there. And if the camera has what I want in it, that wouldn't deter me from buying it either way. But competition has higher resolution bodies in the same format and slightly larger ones.

Nov 23, 2023 at 03:30 AM

PhilH
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Dear SANTA please make the R1 with

Also, a more personal thing. I own and have owned a lot of cameras during my career. At one point I owned two Phase One bodies, which was really about the format size, resolution, and dynamic range at the time. Stills-wise, I'm mainly a Canon shooter (mainly R5 and R5C) and I do own a couple Sony bodies.

With Fuji and Hassy finding joy in the 100 megapixel 44x33 space, I think Canon can fill that gap to keep people away from that format if they get closer to 100 megapixels are hit that mark, but the sensor is going to need to be very good.

Also to note, Phase One hasn't released a new body in years, though new models. I'm doing my best to not go back to digital medium format, but there is a new pixel design and sensor out there now that can bring them up another 50-ish megapixels. I would be curious if they are going to jump into those waters. That would be a rather different price point all together however.

It's not all about resolution and I'm unsure where Canon feels they need to compete. Certainly against other 135 format bodies, but unsure if the pinch is being felt in regards to the smaller market of 44x33 sensors. But it's currently a growing market where Canon has no presence. And unless they go to larger sensors (very unlikely for a long while), they bridge the gap with a higher resolution 36x24mm sensor first.

Nov 23, 2023 at 03:39 AM

matejphoto
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Dear SANTA please make the R1 with

My, perhaps unpopular, opinion on the MP thing is this: Canon and most pro shooters have figured out there isn't much to gain from going over 45-60mp. Sony seems to agree. Back in the MP arms race days when the 5DS was launched, at 2x the prevailing average resolution, it was a big splash. But today to drop a 90mp body - I just don't know there is a big market outside of the small but hardcore contingent of forum dwellers (and unfortunately we are not the biggest part of Canon or Sony's market). Its also possible that physics is still...Show more →

To me this would make sense:
R1 with ~45Mpix - Plenty for most photography, good resolution for 8K video. Super fast readout / Global shutter in mark II
R3 mark II with ~24Mpix - Sports camera with global shutter
R5 mark II with ~45Mpix - Incremental upgrades over original R5 (Better EVF, maybe stacked sensor,...)
R5S with 80-100Mpix - For landscape, still life, group shots, 5fps would be plenty

I have the R5 and I think it is incredible, but I would buy a R5S. My take:
- If you scale 32mpix from R7 to full frame you get 82Mpix. So I don't see much of a problem to make this.
- I would buy R5S alongside R5m2 (or keep the original R5)
- R5S would eliminate need to consider Fuji GFX system. Yeah the GFX has bigger sensor, but the lenses are slower so the look is the same. The only advantage is resolution / dynamic range. (I have GFX 50R too for fun).
- Sure you would need great lenses and learn how to shoot with them, maybe max f/5.6 to avoid diffraction. But for landscapes I can focus stack.
- I don't see 100Mpix stills to be a problem for computers, 8K video is lot worse
- And most importantly: even if your lens/technique is not ideal the 100mpix will still give you the same quality as the 45mpix, you might just waste the extra potential.

Nov 23, 2023 at 04:55 AM

melcat
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Dear SANTA please make the R1 with

matejphoto wrote:
- If you scale 32mpix from R7 to full frame you get 82Mpix. So I don't see much of a problem to make this.

There have been several comments like this, but it doesn’t work that way. The greater the area of the chip, the lower the yield due to random defects – that’s why Moore’s Law worked, as the chips got smaller for the same number of transistors in a device the yield for the device rose and the costs fell.

So yes, they could make it, but it might cost more than the market would bear.

Nov 23, 2023 at 05:55 AM

matejphoto
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Dear SANTA please make the R1 with

melcat wrote:
There have been several comments like this, but it doesn’t work that way. The greater the area of the chip, the lower the yield due to random defects – that’s why Moore’s Law worked, as the chips got smaller for the same number of transistors in a device the yield for the device rose and the costs fell.

So yes, they could make it, but it might cost more than the market would bear.

They can make a full frame chip for the R8 and sell it for under $1500. The area of the chip in R8 is the same as R5s.

Nov 23, 2023 at 06:15 AM

melcat
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Dear SANTA please make the R1 with

matejphoto wrote:
The area of the chip in R8 is the same as R5s.

But the resolution, isn’t, and it doesn’t have the same readout speed.

Even Apple and TSMC can’t make the top-level Apple Mac processor in a single chip; it’s two chips stitched together with gold wire between.

Nov 23, 2023 at 07:04 AM

matejphoto
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Dear SANTA please make the R1 with

melcat wrote:
But the resolution, isn’t, and it doesn’t have the same readout speed.

How does the resolution and readout speed affect yield from a wafer?

Nov 23, 2023 at 07:12 AM

Tony5787
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Dear SANTA please make the R1 with

If they can put out an R1 that’s ~45MP, shoots 60-120fps RAW with AF, and keeps the ergonomics of the R3 that would be perfect for me. I love the R3 but wouldn’t mind having more speed and resolution for a few scenarios. If they can do that and have low light performance close to the R3 then that would be the only camera I need. One thing that’s driven me nuts with the RF lineup is how every camera uses a different layout, switching between my R3 and R5 feels so strange because of how different the controls are. Hopefully Canon just sticks with the layout that the R3 has, that camera has the best ergonomics of any I’ve ever used.

Nov 23, 2023 at 05:06 PM

melcat
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Dear SANTA please make the R1 with

Tony5787 wrote:
Hopefully Canon just sticks with the layout that the R3 has, that camera has the best ergonomics of any I’ve ever used.

I don’t like the position of the MODE button in the middle of a dial; I preferred its old 1-series location on the left shoulder with the other two buttons. I prefer the ship’s-compartment style latching memory card door of the 1-series to the 5-series style one on the R3, but I guess they ran out of room. The power switch has been a source of thumb injury for me on both my 1-series and R3 (I have learned to use a pinch action with it instead of just using the thumb).

Nov 24, 2023 at 01:53 AM

macwest
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Dear SANTA please make the R1 with

From Canon Rumors Newsletter.

Quad Pixel AF Coming to EOS R1
We had to sit on this information until a new patent was revealed.
One of the biggest features coming to Canon’s flagship EOS R1 next year will be the rollout of Quad Pixel Autofocus.

What are the advantages over Dual Pixel Autofocus (DPAF?)
Since image sensors are generally a 3:2 aspect ratio and not square, so the distance to the center of the image sensor is different for horizontal and vertical orientation. Quad Pixel Autofocus (QPAF) will overcome the performance difference between the two orientations.
We were told a few months ago that QPAF was ready for production for the upcoming Canon EOS R1 flagship camera, which is expected to be shown in early 2024 with availability some time later next year.
There is no mention as to whether or not the Canon EOS R5 Mark II will also receive QPAF, but we’d be surprised if it didn’t.

https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-patent-application-full-frame-quad-pixel-sensor/

Nov 24, 2023 at 05:33 AM

lighthound
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Dear SANTA please make the R1 with

Looks like my wish to Santa worked.

lighthound wrote:
Quad pixel AF in all directions

macwest wrote:
From Canon Rumors Newsletter.

Quad Pixel AF Coming to EOS R1
We had to sit on this information until a new patent was revealed.
One of the biggest features coming to Canon’s flagship EOS R1 next year will be the rollout of Quad Pixel Autofocus.

What are the advantages over Dual Pixel Autofocus (DPAF?)
Since image sensors are generally a 3:2 aspect ratio and not square, so the distance to the center of the image sensor is different for horizontal and vertical orientation. Quad Pixel Autofocus (QPAF) will overcome the performance difference between the two orientations.
We were told a few months ago that QPAF was...Show more →

Nov 24, 2023 at 07:34 AM

downhillonwater
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Dear SANTA please make the R1 with

Only a month ago CR said quad PIXEL AF would not be in the R1.

https://www.canonrumors.com/canon-eos-r1-prototypes-are-in-the-wild-cr3/

If true, I hope that QPAF makes a big difference in AF speed and accuracy for moving subjects eg BIF in addition to solving the horizontal/vertical issue.

Nov 24, 2023 at 10:01 AM

Tony5787
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Dear SANTA please make the R1 with

melcat wrote:
I don’t like the position of the MODE button in the middle of a dial; I preferred its old 1-series location on the left shoulder with the other two buttons. I prefer the ship’s-compartment style latching memory card door of the 1-series to the 5-series style one on the R3, but I guess they ran out of room. The power switch has been a source of thumb injury for me on both my 1-series and R3 (I have learned to use a pinch action with it instead of just using the thumb).

Ah yeah I can see how the placement of the power switch could be problematic. I never use the mode button though because I never take my camera out of manual mode lol It does seem like an odd placement for it though now that I think about it.

Nov 24, 2023 at 10:23 AM

downhillonwater
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Dear SANTA please make the R1 with

#NotAnElectricalEngineer

Is there a third readout scheme that lies between today's typical sensors, which readout each pixel sequentially, and global shutter? Is it possible to have a sensor readout scheme where the pixels in each row are readout sequentially, but the rows are processed in parallel?

This would have the potential to increase readout speed thousands of times.

Nov 24, 2023 at 05:40 PM

macwest
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Dear SANTA please make the R1 with

https://www.canonrumors.com/quad-pixel-autofocus-is-ready-for-production-cr1/

Nov 27, 2023 at 12:46 PM

alundeb
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Dear SANTA please make the R1 with

downhillonwater wrote:
#NotAnElectricalEngineer

Is there a third readout scheme that lies between today's typical sensors, which readout each pixel sequentially, and global shutter? Is it possible to have a sensor readout scheme where the pixels in each row are readout sequentially, but the rows are processed in parallel?

This would have the potential to increase readout speed thousands of times.

#ElectricalEngineer
Your idea is actually a great one.
The only problem is that some other brat came up with the idea before you

Google "Sony column ADC".
Even early digital cameras did at least some parallellity, with 4,8 or 16 separate wires with analog signals off the sensor chip. So reading each pixel sequentially hasn't strictly been the reality, but you are onto something.

Nov 29, 2023 at 02:34 AM

lighthound
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Dear SANTA please make the R1 with

macwest wrote:
https://www.canonrumors.com/quad-pixel-autofocus-is-ready-for-production-cr1/

Oh hell yeah! The R5II is expected to have QPAF as well from the sounds of it. I was planning on skipping the mark II, but if it has QPAF then I might have to cave and start sleeping on the couch again.

Nov 29, 2023 at 06:21 AM

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