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EFC and Mechanical Shutter and Fast Primes

nhmorgan
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · EFC and Mechanical Shutter and Fast Primes

Does anyone know why the z6i/ii and z7i/ii series of cameras disable fully mechanical shutter with certain lenses? I've used the 50 1.2, 85 1.2, and 135mm 1.8 and all three the Z6 and Z7 cameras only enable electronic front curtain or silent shutter. Mechanical seems to be disabled as an option. This isn't the case for the 50mm 1.8s, 35mm 1.8s, and 24-70 f4. I've not tested any other Z lenses. This seems like an odd feature, since at higher shutter speeds, it is my understanding that EFC shutter can impact the bokeh quality. Am I missing a way to enable fully mechanical shutter with these lenses?

Nov 14, 2023 at 08:25 AM

ilkka_nissila
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · EFC and Mechanical Shutter and Fast Primes

Isn't "Auto" available as shutter type?

It would use EFCS at slow shutter speeds and mechanical shutter for fast speeds, if it is available, and make the switch automatically.

nhmorgan wrote:
Does anyone know why the z6i/ii and z7i/ii series of cameras disable fully mechanical shutter with certain lenses? I've used the 50 1.2, 85 1.2, and 135mm 1.8 and all three the Z6 and Z7 cameras only enable electronic front curtain or silent shutter. Mechanical seems to be disabled as an option. This isn't the case for the 50mm 1.8s, 35mm 1.8s, and 24-70 f4. I've not tested any other Z lenses. This seems like an odd feature, since at higher shutter speeds, it is my understanding that EFC shutter can impact the bokeh quality. Am I missing a way...Show more →

Nov 14, 2023 at 09:03 AM

nhmorgan
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · EFC and Mechanical Shutter and Fast Primes

Auto is an option, but I assume that with lenses that can only use EFC that auto is the same as using EFC. It's that or fully electronic. Fully manual just isn't an option; it's greyed out.

Nov 14, 2023 at 02:10 PM

nhmorgan
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · EFC and Mechanical Shutter and Fast Primes

Also, I should have added the ZF to the list, because it works the same as the z6/z7s

Nov 14, 2023 at 02:11 PM

RoamingScott
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · EFC and Mechanical Shutter and Fast Primes

Hogan has since removed the article but some quotes on his hypothesis of why this is in here (boils down to VR on certain lenses).

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1734851/6

Nov 14, 2023 at 02:19 PM

nhmorgan
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · EFC and Mechanical Shutter and Fast Primes

Interesting, because the Plena and 85mm 1.2 don't have VR but do have this limitation. Also weirdly, if you select auto then shutter speeds above 1/2000 are available, but if you select EFC then the shutter speed caps at 1/2000, so I guess auto is allowing MS above 1/2000. I originally mentioned the 50mm 1.2, but just tested it and it allows MS.

Nov 14, 2023 at 02:29 PM

James Farrell
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · EFC and Mechanical Shutter and Fast Primes

nhmorgan wrote:
Auto is an option, but I assume that with lenses that can only use EFC that auto is the same as using EFC. It's that or fully electronic. Fully manual just isn't an option; it's greyed out.

This issue is a big mis-understanding that's a few years old. When Nikon issued firmware 2.0 for the Nikon Z6 and Z7 (first generation models) they added a shutter option in the menu called AUTO. The reason for doing this was for technical issues that are a bit hard to understand. The detailed explanation is irrelevant here. Just remember the shutter speed number 1/250. Here’s a summary why:

If you've chosen AUTO for shutter -- If the shutter speed you've selected (or the camera changed to when in Aperture Mode), is 1/250 or slower the camera will automatically use EFCS. If the shutter speed is 1/320 or faster, all the way to the maximum mechanical shutter possible for that model of Z body, the camera will use Mechanical Shutter. In other words, in AUTO mode, the camera uses Mechanical Shutter at 1/320 or faster; EFCS at 1/250 or slower.

If you've chosen EFCS in the shutter menu, the camera will use EFCS at ANY speed (that you set or that the camera uses in Aperture mode) up to and including 1/2000. It will not set a shutter speed faster than 1/2000 when EFCS is selected.

If you mount a lens AND your camera will let you choose MECHANICAL, (meaning that it's not 'grayed out in the Shutter Type menu), that means that the lens you mounted can be used in mechanical mode at ANY shutter speed. That’s why your 24-70 f/4 S, for example, can be set for Mechanical Shutter at 1/250 or slower than 1/250.

The reason why you CANNOT select MECHANICAL for the shutter type for certain lenses is that those lenses do not work properly (for technical reasons) in mechanical mode at 1/250 or slower. So Nikon doesn't let you choose that in the menu.

Bottom line: select AUTO and you’re shooting EFCS at 1/250 and slower. At 1/320 and faster you’re shooting in Mechanical Shutter.

Edited on Nov 14, 2023 at 06:13 PM · View previous versions

Nov 14, 2023 at 05:53 PM

snapsy
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · EFC and Mechanical Shutter and Fast Primes

The issue Nikon is likely trying to avoid is shutter shock, which is affected by some lenses more than others based on how the mass of the lens absorbs or reflects the vibration coming off the shutter. This was seen extensively on the original Sony A7R, which had neither an EFCS nor a fully-electronic shutter. Image Stabilization on lenses were affected too, as the vibration would be mistaken for user movement and the lens IS would respond with IS movements that resulted in photos blurrier than when IS is disabled.

The reason it switches over the the fully-mechanical shutter at high speeds like 1/2000 is to avoid the EFCS-specific issue of exposure bands for slight mismatch in timings and edge effects between the 1st electronic shutter and the 2nd mechanical shutter.

MILCs are uniquely affected by shutter shock vs DSLRs because for a fully-mechanical shutter a MILC has to first close the 2nd curtain before the exposure starts, and that vibration is moving through the camera during the subsequent photograph after the 1st curtain opens to start the exposure. DSLRs don't have this issue because they don't need to leave their 1st curtain open during idle periods to display the scene (optical VF vs electronic VF with Live View), thus they don't have to close the 2nd curtain before the start of the exposure.

Nov 14, 2023 at 06:11 PM

James Farrell
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · EFC and Mechanical Shutter and Fast Primes

snapsy wrote:
..... The reason it switches over the the fully-mechanical shutter at high speeds like 1/2000 is to avoid the EFCS-specific issue of exposure bands for slight mismatch in timings and edge effects between the 1st electronic shutter and the 2nd mechanical shutter ....

What you wrote in part Adam is not right, and what you wrote is misleading and confusing. The Z6/Z7 does not (quoting) "switches over the the fully-mechanical shutter at high speeds like 1/2000" (end quote). In AUTO shutter mode the camera switches automatically from EFCS to Mechanical at 1/320 or faster with no limit. In EFCS mode exclusively the maximum shutter speed is 1/2000 period.

Nov 14, 2023 at 06:22 PM

snapsy
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · EFC and Mechanical Shutter and Fast Primes

James Farrell wrote:
That's not right, Adam, and what you wrote is misleading and confusing. The Z6/Z7 does not (quoting) "switches over the the fully-mechanical shutter at high speeds like 1/2000" (end quote). In AUTO shutter mode the camera switches automatically from EFCS to Mechanical at 1/320 or faster. In EFCS mode exclusively the maximum shutter speed is 1/2000 period.

The OP wrote that the MS is available on Auto starting at 1/2000 on a lens where MS is otherwise not available. That is what I was referring to.

As for the shutter speeds affected by EFCS, they are 1/2000 and faster on most sensors/shutters, including Sony. I suspect the same is true for Nikon but they chose to use a more conservative speed that's just fast enough to avoid shutter-shock.

Nov 14, 2023 at 06:27 PM

James Farrell
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · EFC and Mechanical Shutter and Fast Primes

snapsy wrote:
As for the shutter speeds affected by EFCS, they are 1/2000 and faster on most sensors/shutters, including Sony. I suspect the same is true for Nikon but they chose to use a more conservative speed that's just fast enough to avoid shutter-shock.

Since one cannot shoot EFCS faster than 1/2000 with the OP's Nikon, what does Sony have to do with this unless you're trying to make this discussion more confusing?

Nov 14, 2023 at 06:40 PM

snapsy
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · EFC and Mechanical Shutter and Fast Primes

James Farrell wrote:
What does Sony have to do with this unless you're trying to make this discussion more confusing?

For historical context and to demonstrate how it's not a Nikon-specific issue. Sony was the first camera to exhibit EFCS-specific exposure banding issues at fast shutter speeds. Rather than disable EFCS at certain speeds they chose instead fo just warn the user about them in the manual.

Nov 14, 2023 at 06:47 PM

RoamingScott
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · EFC and Mechanical Shutter and Fast Primes

Technically Sony bokeh starts to degrade at 1/1600 with EFCS.

Definitely not a Sony or Nikon specific issue or concern.

Easy solution: Get a Z8 or Z9 and never think about it again

Nov 14, 2023 at 06:49 PM

snapsy
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · EFC and Mechanical Shutter and Fast Primes

RoamingScott wrote:
Technically Sony bokeh starts to degrade at 1/1600 with EFCS.

Definitely not a Sony or Nikon specific issue or concern.

Easy solution: Get a Z8 or Z9 and never think about it again

It's aperture-dependent, which Sony warns about separately. Here is Sony's full EFCS disclosure section, this from the A7r IV manual:

When you shoot at high shutter speeds with a large-aperture lens attached, out-of-focus circle produced by the bokeh effect may get cut off because of the shutter mechanism. If this happens, set [e-Front Curtain Shutter] to [Off].
When a lens made by another manufacturer (including a Minolta/Konica-Minolta lens) is used, set this function to [Off]. If you set this function to [On], the correct exposure will not be set or the image brightness will be uneven.
When you shoot at high shutter speeds, the image brightness may become uneven depending on the shooting environment. In such cases, set [e-Front Curtain Shutter] to [Off].

Source: https://helpguide.sony.net/ilc/1930/v1/en/contents/TP0002688434.html

Nov 14, 2023 at 06:56 PM

RoamingScott
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · EFC and Mechanical Shutter and Fast Primes

snapsy wrote:
It's aperture-dependent, which Sony warns about separately. Here is Sony's full EFCS disclosure section, this from the A7r IV manual:

When you shoot at high shutter speeds with a large-aperture lens attached, out-of-focus circle produced by the bokeh effect may get cut off because of the shutter mechanism. If this happens, set [e-Front Curtain Shutter] to [Off].
When a lens made by another manufacturer (including a Minolta/Konica-Minolta lens) is used, set this function to [Off]. If you set this function to [On], the correct exposure will not be set or the image brightness will be uneven.
When you shoot at high shutter speeds,

Source: https://helpguide.sony.net/ilc/1930/v1/en/contents/TP0002688434.html
...Show more →

Well aware, shot the A7R4 for years.

Nov 14, 2023 at 06:57 PM


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