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Nikon Z8 - Noise in the Images and even in the Sky

bs kite
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Nikon Z8 - Noise in the Images and even in the Sky

He wants to know if you/we think the Z8 sensor is noisier than the sensors in the DSLR's he mentions.

He feels that it is. What do you think? Is it?

I don't think so. But others might have different opinions.

To me, it is all about ISO. The lower the better. And that is all about how much light is reaching the sensor.

I do concur with several here: DXO (deep prime), sometimes Topaz Ai

Nov 14, 2023 at 07:51 PM

gear-nut
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Nikon Z8 - Noise in the Images and even in the Sky

His comment made no sense to me. ISO 400 even though as noisy as 800 in the Z8/9, is not anything close to what he was describing.

My guess is he grossly underexposed the original, and/or he did something dramatically wrong in using LR. Or there is the possibility he’s a Sony troll.

Nov 14, 2023 at 08:33 PM

AcuteShadows
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Nikon Z8 - Noise in the Images and even in the Sky

bs kite wrote:
He wants to know if you/we think the Z8 sensor is noisier than the sensors in the DSLR's he mentions.

He feels that it is. What do you think? Is it?

I don't think so. But others might have different opinions.

To me, it is all about ISO. The lower the better. And that is all about how much light is reaching the sensor.

I do concur with several here: DXO (deep prime), sometimes Topaz Ai

Some Nikon DSLRs are indeed less noisy than the Z 8, at least in some ISO ranges: D800, D850, D4, D5, D6, Df and probably some others. But the differences are quite small.

If there is a real noise issue in this case, it is due to that particular Z 8 being defective, or something going wrong in the workflow. I would think that serious underexposure cannot go unnoticed, but maybe some post-processing programmes can be set to automatically adjust exposure when importing files.

Nov 14, 2023 at 08:44 PM

umer.272
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Nikon Z8 - Noise in the Images and even in the Sky

Wow

Honestly , i was not aware about this concept of Dual Gain

How does it works ??

thanks

Nov 15, 2023 at 02:02 AM

umer.272
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Nikon Z8 - Noise in the Images and even in the Sky

Mentioning me as Sony Troll

i started with D7200 then D500 then Got Z6 but switched to D780 Instead, Didnt liked the focus like the D500

now got the Z8 , its good in every way but as i mentioned i have to denoise alot which was not my major part of Post processing.

thats it brother , please dont assume im a troll. I spend a large amount for this camera, only concern is the noise but im living with it . No issue just wanted to ask..

Im hobbyist photographer not a Professional , i dont earn from it

Nov 15, 2023 at 02:05 AM

umer.272
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Nikon Z8 - Noise in the Images and even in the Sky

Sure Man

Give me some time
right now in office

Ill make a url and share because i was not familiar with Fred miranda Subscription thingy

Nov 15, 2023 at 02:09 AM

Ripolini
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Nikon Z8 - Noise in the Images and even in the Sky

umer.272 wrote:
Can you guys help here or link me to ....

Z8 is noisier up to 400 ISO
https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/RN_ADU.htm#Nikon%20D500_14,Nikon%20D850_14,Nikon%20Z%207II_14,Nikon%20Z%208_14

Nov 15, 2023 at 02:15 AM

ilkka_nissila
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Nikon Z8 - Noise in the Images and even in the Sky

Slightly higher noise is expected with the Z8 per pixel than D500. There are a few reasons for this. First the very fast read time of the sensor results in slightly increased noise. Additionally, the Nikon 45 MP sensor in the D850 seems to have a more flat spectral sensitivity response to blue light (less "peaky") than, e.g., the D500. E.g. see the measurement here:

https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=10662.msg189742#msg189742

Also it was suggested that Nikon didn't use a micro-lens array in the D850 and this was to achieve higher contrast but with the cost of reduced quantum efficiency. So the contrast-to-noise ratio should still be good if this is indeed what Nikon did, and this is the most important parameter as it tells us how well details can be separated from noise. The Z8 is a further evolution of the 45 MP sensor where the main improvement is with the speed at which the data can be read, which enables high fps photography in silence.

Anyway, these differences in sensitivity and noise are subtle and they should not cause any great practical concern. To get the best image quality, try to fill as much of the image with the subject rather than use it like you would a DX camera and just cropping to get the desired framing. Cropping involves throwing away (a lot of) information and should not be a primary tool for capturing images, use it instead as a refinement of the composition.

I would recommend using each camera to its advantage. This can require some practice to find the best settings to use while shooting and also in post-processing. Advantages of the Z8 over the D500 include that you can shoot at high frame rates and it's silent (when shutter sound is turned off). As long as it recognizes the subject the autofocus can be very accurate (sometimes it will focus on something other than you intend, to avoid this try the custom wide-area with subject detection and 9-point dynamic area to more specifically tell the camera where to focus). While it may not do everything as well as you would like, it is still an excellent camera. According to Nikon, the Z8 will get a major firmware update in spring 2024 which includes bird detection as a separate mode. This may be also help with results.

Nikon has some new long lenses such as 800/6.3 and 180-600/6.3 which you may consider, as it is quite possible that the 60-600 is not able to focus on a mirrorless camera as well as Nikon Z lenses.

Nov 15, 2023 at 05:50 AM

AcuteShadows
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Nikon Z8 - Noise in the Images and even in the Sky

Ripolini wrote:
Z8 is noisier up to 400 ISO
https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/RN_ADU.htm#Nikon%20D500_14,Nikon%20D850_14,Nikon%20Z%207II_14,Nikon%20Z%208_14

Read noise is only one part of the aggregate noise.

Read noise is prevalent in very underexposed areas, and, as exposure increases, becomes a less important component of noise.

Is the observed noise problem mainly present in shadow areas, or is it a general problem, i.e. not or not significantly dependent on exposure?

Nov 15, 2023 at 09:59 AM

AcuteShadows
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Nikon Z8 - Noise in the Images and even in the Sky

We would need photon transfer curves to give a definite answer, but these are, to my knowledge, only available for select (generally low) ISO values.

Nov 15, 2023 at 10:01 AM

gear-nut
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Nikon Z8 - Noise in the Images and even in the Sky

AcuteShadows wrote:
Is the observed noise problem mainly present in shadow areas, or is it a general problem, i.e. not or not significantly dependent on exposure?

He says he’s getting excessive noise in normal sky at iso 400.

While from a technical standpoint, the Z8/9 may be noisier than other models, it’s such a small amount visually as to be irrelevant. I set my Z9 base iso to 500 now for normal shooting because of the 209-400 issue, and have zero noise issues even pushing the files around a lot. (I do however still use 64 for dedicated landscape work.) It’s why I think there is either something wrong with his workflow, or possibly he has a serious sensor heat issue in his particular camera.

Nov 15, 2023 at 10:12 AM

bu82
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Nikon Z8 - Noise in the Images and even in the Sky

Hmm...I'm looking at the Z9 (as I posted in my thread about it), but this has me a bit concerned. I have also heard that the high ISO is not as good as "the competition", but that's OK. I don't mind some noise. But my workflow is Camera RAW and/or Lightroom. I've used it for 15 years+ and don't want to try another RAW converter. If the Z9 doesn't play nice with Adobe RAW converters, that could be a deal breaker for me. I don't have time for many events and sports to go through another step with DXO or whatever. With my Canon 1DXMKII and 5DMK4 I do it all in Camera RAW/Lightroom, including small NR that I may need. I will rent the camera and take it on a tough shoot and see for myself, but I don't like the sound of this..

If the high ISO noise on the Z9 is the same as on my 1DXMKII/5DMK4 then I'm fine. But if it's problematic in Camera Raw/LR, then I dunno.

Nov 15, 2023 at 11:05 AM

1bwana1
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Nikon Z8 - Noise in the Images and even in the Sky

You don't have to be concerned in my opinion. We have data that says the Dynamic Range of the Z9 is competitive with the best competition in its class. At worst about 1/2 a stop lower. Well within the margin of user capabilities.

I have edit both A1 and Z9 files. I find that each produce excellent files capable of the highest level of imaging.

You can check the Z9 against competition and against benchmarks you are familiar with here:

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

Nov 15, 2023 at 11:18 AM

RoamingScott
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Nikon Z8 - Noise in the Images and even in the Sky

You’ll be fine.

bu82 wrote:
Hmm...I'm looking at the Z9 (as I posted in my thread about it), but this has me a bit concerned. I have also heard that the high ISO is not as good as "the competition", but that's OK. I don't mind some noise. But my workflow is Camera RAW and/or Lightroom. I've used it for 15 years+ and don't want to try another RAW converter. If the Z9 doesn't play nice with Adobe RAW converters, that could be a deal breaker for me. I don't have time for many events and sports to go through another step with DXO or...Show more →

Nov 15, 2023 at 11:25 AM

gear-nut
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Nikon Z8 - Noise in the Images and even in the Sky

@bu82 — another question. Do you by any chance have “Active D lighting” turned on in the menu, possibly at highest value? If so, turn it off and see if that helps…

Nov 15, 2023 at 11:39 AM

snapsy
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Nikon Z8 - Noise in the Images and even in the Sky

Nov 15, 2023 at 11:48 AM

ilkka_nissila
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Nikon Z8 - Noise in the Images and even in the Sky

Lightroom/ACR works fine with the Z8 and I am sure with the Z9. The differences are just in the balance between sharpness and noise in the raw conversion. Different software just have different default parameters. There is no specific incompatibility or reason to avoid LR/ACR with these cameras.

bu82 wrote:
Hmm...I'm looking at the Z9 (as I posted in my thread about it), but this has me a bit concerned. I have also heard that the high ISO is not as good as "the competition", but that's OK. I don't mind some noise. But my workflow is Camera RAW and/or Lightroom. I've used it for 15 years+ and don't want to try another RAW converter. If the Z9 doesn't play nice with Adobe RAW converters, that could be a deal breaker for me. I don't have time for many events and sports to go through another step with DXO or...Show more →

Nov 15, 2023 at 01:20 PM

CanadaMark
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Nikon Z8 - Noise in the Images and even in the Sky

bu82 wrote:
Hmm...I'm looking at the Z9 (as I posted in my thread about it), but this has me a bit concerned. I have also heard that the high ISO is not as good as "the competition", but that's OK. I don't mind some noise. But my workflow is Camera RAW and/or Lightroom. I've used it for 15 years+ and don't want to try another RAW converter. If the Z9 doesn't play nice with Adobe RAW converters, that could be a deal breaker for me. I don't have time for many events and sports to go through another step with DXO or...Show more →

DXO Pure RAW is a batch process, so it's actually a lot less work than trying to make the files look the same strictly in Adobe. It's not an alternative full featured editor to LR, it's a supplement (also it has LR integration if you prefer). The software itself is incredibly simple and you only click a couple of buttons. You would simply run the files through DXO Pure RAW, come back 10 min later or whatever when it's done, then take all the resulting DNG files into LR and edit as normal without having to worry about noise. This would save you a lot of time compared to fiddling with each individual file in LR trying to get a similar result.

I'd suggest downloading the free trial and see if you like it. If it's not your cup of tea, obviously that's completely fine and you can just stick with LR. You just sounded like a good candidate for the software which is why I brought it up.

No single piece of software has saved me more time than DXO which is why I like it so much. The way it applies lens corrections and sharpening (if you want) are also done in a way that is superior to any other program currently. This gives me the best possible starting point to continue my editing in LR/PS. You can get a similar result strictly using LR but it takes a lot longer and involves more steps.

As for ISO performance, I think someone posted the links above for you to look at, but at normalized resolution I think you will find that the Z9 actually outperforms the competition as well as your older Canon bodies both in ISO and DR.

Nov 15, 2023 at 01:40 PM

gear-nut
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Nikon Z8 - Noise in the Images and even in the Sky

Here are two quick -- and non scientific -- examples of noise between ACR and C1 from the same Z9 file at higher ISO. (I was testing the 800pf with the new 4.1 FW eye detect when I captured several weeks back.) The image is taken on my Z9 at 1/800 @ f6.3 and ISO 3600. I processed the file in C1 and ACR using identical settings for all exposure including saturation; highlight and shadow; clarity; and both at their respective base NR's. I pushed exposure up by .4 on both and added another good 2 stops on the shadow slider to bring up the dark background and accentuate the noise there to closer replicate ISO 20,000 in that area. Note that these are 100% crops from the respective images, further accentuating noise. As such, also may show slightly different crop centering when viewed side-by-side. The main difference in color and saturation is simply ACR's base camera profiles versus C1's for the Z9, and I did not bother to adjust the ACR to C1's appearance just to underscore that difference as well.

Offered FWIW discussion. Again, 100% Z9 crops with background pushed to around ISO 20,000:

ACR conversion

C1 conversion

Edited on Nov 15, 2023 at 02:38 PM · View previous versions

Nov 15, 2023 at 02:34 PM

RoamingScott
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Nikon Z8 - Noise in the Images and even in the Sky

As mentioned in the YT I posted earlier in the thread it’s not advised to use the Adobe Color profile for Z8/Z9 photos from a raw conversion/noise perspective. Your results match the video’s to a T.

gear-nut wrote:
Here are two quick -- and non scientific -- examples of noise between ACR and C1 from the same Z9 file at higher ISO. (I was testing the 800pf with the new 4.1 FW eye detect when I captured several weeks back.) The image is taken on my Z9 at 1/800 @ f6.3 and ISO 3600. I processed the file in C1 and ACR using identical settings for all exposure including saturation; highlight and shadow; clarity; and both at their respective base NR's. I pushed exposure up by .4 on both and added another good 2 stops on the shadow...Show more →

Nov 15, 2023 at 02:36 PM

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