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Global Shutter discussion

RoamingScott
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · Global Shutter discussion

There is a global shutter sensor camera on every manufacturers’ horizon. Every manufacturer will have a different ROI calculus on what that sensor will mean for their sales.

mogul wrote:
Do you think there might be a GS camera in Nikon's horizon? Their marketing department might be advised to read this thread that it is unneeded.

Nov 12, 2023 at 10:35 AM

sungphoto
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · Global Shutter discussion

So far it seems like the reduction in dynamic range and lowish resolution with the current tech make it kind of a “so what?” feature.

I’d rather have something like high speed wireless tethering, or make SnapBridge work by just tapping your camera to it like they’re a pair of iPods. Or a pancake 35 f2 z lens please

Nov 12, 2023 at 11:07 AM

sjms
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · Global Shutter discussion

to some yes others no. a rather limited outlook to what will come.

Nov 12, 2023 at 11:13 AM

1bwana1
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · Global Shutter discussion

mogul wrote:
Do you think there might be a GS camera in Nikon's horizon? Their marketing department might be advised to read this thread that it is unneeded.

Of course Nikon will eventually have one. But it is likely to be a while. Nikon has a lot on its plate camera wise right now. The Z6II/Z7III cameras are badly needed to make the most popular camera categories competitive. They must come first.

Then Nikon has to find a source that can/will sell them such a sensor. Currently I think they only buy from Sony. Sony has a history of withholding large sensor advancements such as this exclusively for its own use for some years. Canon will likely have one soon, but I am not sure they will provide it to Nikon either. Nikon tried very hard to source the Z8 sensor from a supplier other than Sony. That attempt failed ad they were forced to re-use the Z9 sensor in the Z8. This was not their first choice, but it has worked out well I think.

In the long run all the camera makers will be offering GS cameras. They may end up trailing Sony by some years just like what happened with the stacked sensors, and the 61mpx sensors. They will get there however, and when they do the cameras will benefit from having many of the compromises of GS worked out. In my opinion, their first offering will therefor be better cameras than the A9III.

Nov 12, 2023 at 11:34 AM

RoamingScott
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · Global Shutter discussion

Anyone doubting the utility of 120fps shooting camera with precapture and zero rolling shutter, specifically for sports, should open their eyes a bit

Now apply this to the hardest to shoot, flitty birds and you have another use case.

Nov 12, 2023 at 03:42 PM

1bwana1
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · Global Shutter discussion

As I have been saying, for RAW shooting it is the best (not only) solution for mitigating human latency that has been implemented in a camera to date.

Nov 12, 2023 at 04:41 PM

groob
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · Global Shutter discussion

RoamingScott wrote:

Anyone doubting the utility of 120fps shooting camera with precapture and zero rolling shutter, specifically for sports, should open their eyes a bit

Now apply this to the hardest to shoot, flitty birds and you have another use case.

Not sure if this was directed at me, but I certainly see the utility for sports. The problem with flitty little birds is that they don't perform on command, so the utility for wildlife is much more limited, particularly given the buffer restraints and requirement to select 120 FPS in anticipation of action. Also, FWIW, Fro specifically chose to shoot in JPG--because of the buffer issues.

Nov 12, 2023 at 07:57 PM

RoamingScott
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · Global Shutter discussion

groob wrote:
Not sure if this was directed at me, but I certainly see the utility for sports. The problem with flitty little birds is that they don't perform on command, so the utility for wildlife is much more limited, particularly given the buffer restraints and requirement to select 120 FPS in anticipation of action. Also, FWIW, Fro specifically chose to shoot in JPG--because of the buffer issues.

It wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Just seen a ton of chatter across all the brand forums since the A9iii launch playing down the usefulness of such features.

I'm curious to know where the buffer constraints are with Sony...the camera, or the goofy Type A cards they decided to go with.

Nov 12, 2023 at 08:01 PM

groob
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · Global Shutter discussion

Nov 12, 2023 at 08:04 PM

RoamingScott
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · Global Shutter discussion

If the final constraint with the A9iii shakes out being "if you want to shoot 120fps with precapture, you're limited to JPEG", that's not a bad concession at all compared to the embarrassing 11mp files the Z9 gives you. You don't need to hold the shutter down for more than 2 seconds (240 shots) to capture a decisive moment like take off...you simply react, take a 1 second burst and get the previous second with precapture, done.

It's not like you're ever just going to be straight holding the shutter down on 120fps mode for 10-20 seconds at a time if you're using the mode as intended for the edge cases it serves.

All that said, I haven't kept up with whatever typical Sony asterisks apply to 120fps shooting.

Nov 12, 2023 at 08:07 PM

groob
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · Global Shutter discussion

RoamingScott wrote:
If the final constraint with the A9iii shakes out being "if you want to shoot 120fps with precapture, you're limited to JPEG", that's not a bad concession at all compared to the embarrassing 11mp files the Z9 gives you. You don't need to hold the shutter down for more than 2 seconds (240 shots) to capture a decisive moment like take off...you simply react, take a 1 second burst and get the previous second with precapture, done.

It's not like you're ever just going to be straight holding the shutter down on 120fps mode for 10-20 seconds at a time if...Show more →

As someone who has spent a lot of time waiting for a bird to takeoff, and even more time shooting BiF and other wildlife action, I don't think I agree with that. I couldn't count the times a bird launched just after I let off the shutter, which pre-capture wouldn't help with. And, when shooting action like BiF or sparring mammals, I'd want 120 FPS for much longer than 1 second. There are lots of repeatable and predictable situations during which an animal offers you 4-8 seconds (or more) of really interesting and intense action, and 120 FPS would be really great to have. As of now, a one second RAW buffer just wouldn't be very useful, IMO, for wildlife. Although I don't know the specifics of how it works. Let's say the buffer fills at 1 second at 120 FPS. At that point, does the camera shoot at something like 30 FPS until the buffer clears? When and how does the 120 FPS kick back in? And how long does the buffer take to clear. Do I have to let off the shutter to reengage 120 FPS? If one could just hold down the shutter, and 120 FPS kicks in as the buffer clears and without needing to let off the shutter, that would be pretty useful.

Nov 12, 2023 at 08:24 PM

nhmorgan
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · Global Shutter discussion

RoamingScott wrote:
It wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Just seen a ton of chatter across all the brand forums since the A9iii launch playing down the usefulness of such features.

I'm curious to know where the buffer constraints are with Sony...the camera, or the goofy Type A cards they decided to go with.

I think it's 1.5 seconds with the a9iii at 120fps, but that's probably at 12bit, likely quite compressed. The type A cards are a bottleneck for sure, but maybe it's cheap enough now to build massive buffers into the camera as a workaround; what's to stop a camera having a 128GB or more buffer. I would also assume there is going to be quite a bit of heat generated, which might further impact noise.

Nov 12, 2023 at 08:28 PM

bernardl
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · Global Shutter discussion

1bwana1 wrote:
Then Nikon has to find a source that can/will sell them such a sensor. Currently I think they only buy from Sony. Sony has a history of withholding large sensor advancements such as this exclusively for its own use for some years.

Except that there are several Sonys acting as independent companies.

The key here is Sony Semi-conductor and I know for a fact that they work as closely with Nikon as they do with Sony imaging.

We've had several instances in the past where Nikon got access to some sensors very early, not to say earlier than Sony imaging themselves. There are complex relationship between both companies with cross licensing agreements in the design and manufacturing areas.

It is anybody's guess why Nikon never released a camera with the sensor of the a9, you are implying that it was a "Sony" decision resulting from their desire to give an advantage to Sony imaging over competitors, I am not sure that this was the case. My belief is that Nikon was simply not interested at that time of their move from DSLR to mirrorless.

On the other hand, the technology of the a1 sensor became available in the Z9 only a few months later and Nikon did use some Sony semi-conductor technologies in the Z9 that Sony imaging has never used till date (direct streaming). Why would that be the case if you were correct?

Things aren't as obvious as they look.

Cheers,
Bernard

Nov 12, 2023 at 08:36 PM

RoamingScott
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · Global Shutter discussion

groob wrote:
I couldn't count the times a bird launched just after I let off the shutter, which pre-capture wouldn't help with.

Except that's not at all what I described, and in fact just the opposite.

You utilize precapture by BEGINNING your burst at the moment the launch begins, not before. Then the launch is captured in the precapture buffer.

I think there is also some conflation of the term "buffer" in the last few posts between what's captured in the 1 second of precapture, and what is naturally "buffering" as you shoot a long burst.

Nov 12, 2023 at 08:41 PM

1bwana1
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · Global Shutter discussion

bernardl wrote:
Except that there are several Sonys acting as independent companies.

The key here is Sony Semi-conductor and I know for a fact that they work as closely with Nikon as they do with Sony imaging.

We've had several instances in the past where Nikon got access to some sensors very early, not to say earlier than Sony imaging themselves. There are complex relationship between both companies with cross licensing agreements in the design and manufacturing areas.

It is anybody's guess why Nikon never released a camera with the sensor of the a9, you are implying that it was a "Sony" decision resulting from...Show more →

That is all nice logical thinking and everything, but Sony explicitly said that they held the A9 stacked sensor technology for their own exclusive use for a period of years. That is not even in question. So you belief is absolutely incorrect on this count.

Sony camera, and Sony imaging share all Sony IP between each division, and work closely together.

This is absolutely not the same relationship that Sony has with outside customers. But yes Sony Semi does work closely with Nikon. Nikon is a good customer for Sony, and Sony is a good vendor for Nikon. Everyone profits from this relationship.

Sony Semi-Conductor will not share proprietary customer technology or information with Sony Imaging. Sony stated that in interviews many times also. That I belief is the confusion that causes the extended firewall fables.

All of this has been explicitly, and extensively discussed by Sony Leadership. The firewall as you describe it is just an old wives tale that seems to only exist in the Nikon World. The truth is that this firewall is much more restricted as I have described.

The relationships as describe by Sony leadership is consistent both with withholding stacked sensor technology, and Nikon having proprietary features that Sony cannot use.

All of my statements here are verified by Sony Executives in interview articles I have linked to in the past multiple times here on FM. They are not my beliefs. They are what Sony has said the situation is. I have a new computer and don't have that link saved on it. I don't have time to go back and chase it down. It is out there if you are interested.

Nikon tried to use a different vendor for a stacked sensor. There were test mules out with that other sensor. In the end it didn't work out so Nikon used a Sony based sensor in the end.

Nov 12, 2023 at 09:15 PM

jwolfe
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · Global Shutter discussion

Ok I’m a Sony and Nikon shooter but global shutter is kind of a gimmick. You’ve been able to use Nikon Creative Lighting System at any shutter speed for darn near two decades. So doing creative portraits outdoors hasn’t ever been an issue. And if you’re lighting with strobes most of the time you are overpowering natural light so shutter speed doesn’t matter much. Sports photographers have been shooting basketball under strobes since the 60s. 1/250th of a second is plenty fast because the strobes freeze the action.

As an example, for my sons high school graduation shoot, I used two Nikon speedlights both set to high speed sync and shot against the sunset at 1/500th of a second while he tossed a football. Super easy.

Now there are a few really really niche cases where global shutter is going to matter. Outdoor sports with say a 400mm 2.8 where you can achieve crazy high shutter speeds. And completely eliminating rolling shutter in certain sports or very fast moving action. And certainly for sports portraits it opens up a few cool things. But how many of us actually do that?

Versus the Z9 or A1 does it matter in real life? Rarely.

Nov 12, 2023 at 10:30 PM

jwolfe
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · Global Shutter discussion

This is correct. No matter how much the brain trust online seems to think they know insider stuff, there’s only two major camera sensor manufacturers (not smartphones). And it’s Canon and Sony.

You’re not gonna see a global Sony sensor in a Nikon camera for a good while. When they come up with new tech like this they keep it for themselves for awhile. But in my opinion it’s not so much about selling cameras as it is to build demand in the market. Realistically they aren’t gonna sell very many a9IIIs. But in ten years they will be selling global sensors like mad. Look how long it’s taking for stacked sensors to trickle down.

But sorry I gotta agree. Sony doesn’t let anyone else play with their new toys until they are good and ready to.

1bwana1 wrote:
That is all nice logical thinking and everything, but Sony explicitly said that they held the A9 stacked sensor technology for their own exclusive use for a period of years. That is not even in question. So you belief is absolutely incorrect on this count.

Sony camera, and Sony imaging share all Sony IP between each division, and work closely together.

This is absolutely not the same relationship that Sony has with outside customers. But yes Sony Semi does work closely with Nikon. Nikon is a good customer for Sony, and Sony is a good vendor for Nikon. Everyone profits from this...Show more →

Nov 12, 2023 at 10:38 PM

jwolfe
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · Global Shutter discussion

120 fps. Lol. If you can’t get a shot at 20 fps then it’s not the camera. When I was young we were shooting football at 5 fps and with a 36 exposure limit. And you’d better time the play right cuz it takes a hot minute to rewind and reload.

Who wants to cull all of those images? Or store them? That’s beyond video speed. These specs are getting ridiculous. I can’t even think of a scenario where I would need 120 fps.

groob wrote:
As someone who has spent a lot of time waiting for a bird to takeoff, and even more time shooting BiF and other wildlife action, I don't think I agree with that. I couldn't count the times a bird launched just after I let off the shutter, which pre-capture wouldn't help with. And, when shooting action like BiF or sparring mammals, I'd want 120 FPS for much longer than 1 second. There are lots of repeatable and predictable situations during which an animal offers you 4-8 seconds (or more) of really interesting and intense action, and 120 FPS would be...Show more →

Nov 12, 2023 at 10:44 PM

swifty168
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · Global Shutter discussion

Was looking up Nikon’s 1” demonstration sensor for more details but wasn’t able to specifically find mentions of a global shutter.
However images of the stacked chip includes labelled areas of ‘Global Control Logic’ as well as ‘Global Pixel Driver’ on the readout bottom stack so it gives a clue.

Nikon’s always been fabless but has a chip design department responsible for all their non-X D# series cameras so Z9’s the first flagship to break that trend for quite some time. One has to wonder what that department has been up to since the demonstration 1” sensor some 3 years ago now.

Nov 12, 2023 at 11:03 PM

RoamingScott
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · Global Shutter discussion

Just because you don’t have a creative vision for it doesn’t mean somebody else doesn’t.

jwolfe wrote:
120 fps. Lol. If you can’t get a shot at 20 fps then it’s not the camera. When I was young we were shooting football at 5 fps and with a 36 exposure limit. And you’d better time the play right cuz it takes a hot minute to rewind and reload.

Who wants to cull all of those images? Or store them? That’s beyond video speed. These specs are getting ridiculous. I can’t even think of a scenario where I would need 120 fps.

Nov 12, 2023 at 11:11 PM

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