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Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???

  
 
rscheffler
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


IMO putting the M11/a7RV sensor in the SL3 will be a big mistake precisely because it's a sloooowwww readout sensor. I'd rather have Canon's R5 sensor than that one. But I don't care so much about having the highest resolution or dynamic range at base ISO...

anselwannab wrote:
To me it is all about the ability to shoot with out sound and do it quickly. Everytime I use my M11, I just end up jamming the shutter button a couple of times as I bring it up to get the camera awake and running.

IBIS, sure. High standard ISO an issue- use a glass filter on the sensor with ND built in the bring it down.

Its all about getting to a shutter that is ready more quickly and is quieter than the old film Leicas.


Eliminating the mechanical shutter on the next M would be golden precisely for getting rid of the current kludge of the shutter cycling closed and open again for each exposure due to the M11's off-the-sensor metering implementation. I'm really surprised someone at Leica thought it was a good universal solution. At least give those comfortable with setting exposure manually the option to turn that 'feature' off.

The a9III's base ISO is 250. The M9 was 160. The M240 was 200. So it's not totally out of line. An apparent weakness of Sony's GS appears to be somewhat worse high ISO performance, so a permanent ND incorporated in the sensor cover glass would hurt it even more. NDs on each lens, though a hassle, would be the apparent solution.

Anyway, I would love to see IBIS in an M, even if it meant a special thicker version of the body (though certainly wouldn't love the $$$$$ premium). But it should definitely keep the rangefinder and everything else "M". Working in the range of 1/focal length shutter speeds has always been a weak point with me and my M.



Nov 09, 2023 at 07:19 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


rscheffler wrote:
At least give those comfortable with setting exposure manually the option to turn that 'feature' off.


100% percent!!
I shared this feedback with Leica, but it fell on deaf ears. I couldn't quite adapt to that intense shutter action. (close/open/close/open)



Nov 09, 2023 at 10:10 PM
Hardcore
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


I would have thought Leica would want to keep a mechanical shutter just for the sound and tactile feedback. (no camera sounds as satisfying to me as a leica shutter) I know even shooting nikon, I like the tactile and sound of my mechanical shutter vs EFCS. EFCS is half a shutter and doesn't give that satisfying sound and slight kick. Of course that said, there are times when I definitely use EFCS and I'm sure there are times when I'd love to have a global shutter.

That said, I'm new to this whole global shutter discussion. Does the A9III have a mechanical shutter as well or did they completely eliminate it?




Nov 09, 2023 at 10:13 PM
flash
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


Hardcore wrote:
I would have thought Leica would want to keep a mechanical shutter just for the sound and tactile feedback. (no camera sounds as satisfying to me as a leica shutter) I know even shooting nikon, I like the tactile and sound of my mechanical shutter vs EFCS. EFCS is half a shutter and doesn't give that satisfying sound and slight kick. Of course that said, there are times when I definitely use EFCS and I'm sure there are times when I'd love to have a global shutter.

That said, I'm new to this whole global shutter discussion. Does the A9III have
...Show more

The A9III, Nikon z9 and Z8 have no physical shutter at all. The A9III is global and the Nikon's are fast readout stacked sensors.

Gordon



Nov 09, 2023 at 11:04 PM
Hardcore
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


flash wrote:
The A9III, Nikon z9 and Z8 have no physical shutter at all. The A9III is global and the Nikon's are fast readout stacked sensors.

Gordon


So isn't that something you might miss? I know I would....



Nov 09, 2023 at 11:07 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


Hardcore wrote:
I would have thought Leica would want to keep a mechanical shutter just for the sound and tactile feedback. (no camera sounds as satisfying to me as a leica shutter)


I agree. While Leica might head in that direction, Iím not particularly excited about this shift. I enjoy the tactile, mechanical experience of the Leica M and wouldnít want it to completely transition into an electronic device. Itís not that Iím against it, but it just doesnít align with my personal preferences.



Nov 09, 2023 at 11:41 PM
flash
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


Hardcore wrote:
So isn't that something you might miss? I know I would....


I'm not sure. I don't have a Z9 or 8. I do have an A1 which I use in silent shutter (electronic) almost exclusively. Fred brought up a point as to whether I'd like that sensor in an M and I think I would. I'm not sure I wouldn't have it in *e* shutter all the time. I just don't know. I know I wish my A7R5 had a fast read out sensor. And my SL3.

I said it was a shame that Leica removed the bottom plate for the M11. After 5 minutes with the camera it's one of the things I like most about it.

I think I'd like the option but I'm sure I'd be happy with only silent shooting as well.

Gordon



Nov 10, 2023 at 01:05 PM
RustyRus
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


I am curious what it will do to rendering- Will the rendering of it change at all with this type of shutter or lack thereof?

The shutter on the M11 doesn't bother me at all- I don't see a big need to change but open to whatever the best experience is with the RF patch-



Nov 10, 2023 at 01:14 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


I don't understand why everyone wants to make Leica like Sony or everything else already out there. Those already exist. And for less money. Leica is doing just fine and in my opinion the M 11 has to much stuff. The perfect digital M in my opinion would be an M 3 with a sensor and no other electonics. That will probably never happen and I have probably bought my last Leicas. The M 10 mono will stay with me but once I fully retire the 2 M 10s will probably go as will a lot of my glass except the 24 2.8 Elmarit and the 35 Lux FLE v1.


Nov 10, 2023 at 02:00 PM
 


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anselwannab
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


airfrogusmc wrote:
I don't understand why everyone wants to make Leica like Sony or everything else already out there. Those already exist. And for less money. Leica is doing just fine and in my opinion the M 11 has to much stuff. The perfect digital M in my opinion would be an M 3 with a sensor and no other electonics. That will probably never happen and I have probably bought my last Leicas. The M 10 mono will stay with me but once I fully retire the 2 M 10s will probably go as will a lot of my glass except
...Show more

I think at is core, a global shutter would allow us to get back closer to the original intent. Sure, it could allow us to get more goodies like IBIS, and I don't even know what that other 'E' acronym is for. IBIS, connect to phone, hell- a review screen are almost to much. Even on a 1DXII, I set the ISO and shoot in A. That's pretty much all I use. Second curtian sync is near voodo levels of tech for me.

Menu's are for diners. I want an Canon F1N with a digital back.



Nov 10, 2023 at 03:02 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


Again fine for some. Not for me and I don't think I'm alone in this pointing to the success of the digital M when so many other camera companies aren't doing so well. I still have my F-1s and my New f-1s but I really prefer a true rangefinder. I like mechanical shutters period.


Nov 10, 2023 at 03:25 PM
Maknof
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


Customers want slim M body, with the classical clean design. The overall design is a distinguishing mark, even more than the Red Dot, it is like the Coca-Cola bottle .
Leica M has 27,8mm flange focal distance, adding ibis even without shutter, could mean a thicker body, probably more than the typ240, or a change in design making a central band where camera is noticeably thicker.
A model like Sony A7C, outside the grip side, is thicker than a m11 and with flange distance 1cm shorter.
Even SL bodies, with 7,8mm shorter flange distance are a little thicker in center (from display to mount).





Nov 11, 2023 at 11:11 AM
stgrove
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


Leica should put all those new features into an SL. Oh wait, it has IBIS, terrific follow feature on faces, etc. with the latest FW, but no global shutter. Let's see if it shows up at Leica with the SL4 or SL5 or maybe even SL6 since the SL3 is baked-in by now. Pretty sure it will go with the M11/Q3 60MP sensor, but what will they do with the SL3S?

I ask as I am tired of this higher and higher MP competition and jamming of more and more tiny pixels onto the 24x36mm sensor. I so enjoyed the M240, M10 and even the M10R. I never complained that I needed more MP to print and this was before Topaz Gigapixel AI. Come to think about it I never complained when using the M9 either.

The M is a beautiful tool for sure.



Nov 12, 2023 at 07:35 AM
1bwana1
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???



I shoot Leica for the experience. Leica ergonomics, RF manual focusing, body shape, body weight, lens size, lens construction, and mechanical shutter sounds, are all part of that for me.

As big a fan as I am of the potential of global shutter for my high performance Sony AF cameras, I see nothing about it that I would find additive to my Leica shooting experience. Leica is not a sensor manufacturer so what advancements they can make in that are limited to what suppliers can/will do for them. For my use I hope that Leica concentrates on things like Dynamic Range, Low Noise, Color Signatures, Creating smooth and malleable RAW files, rather that chasing speed in a manual focus M camera . It seems to me that a Leica M will never be the camera of choice when super fast speed is required anyway.

Just my thoughts.



Nov 12, 2023 at 11:49 AM
SrMi
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


1bwana1 wrote:
Maybe some day. But for now I hope Leica focus on image quality improvements in their M sensors rather than speed. The M cameras is not a speed oriented platform. About the only benefits I see coming from a global shutter sensor will be in flash photography or shooting wide open in very bright light. In those rare instances there are other existing ways to deal with those.


Currently, Leica IQ is top-notch (M11). I do not know how to improve it more.
I would like to see the mechanical shutter eliminated with a stacked sensor. This would make the camera lighter and would allow the inclusion of IBIS.



Nov 12, 2023 at 05:58 PM
retrofocus
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


Following this discussion with interest. Especially since some mentioned in earlier threads that IBIS in an M-series camera can't de done while not increasing body size - now we clearly see a different picture here with a few options where this is possible. I mentioned it a while ago in other threads here on FM - I predict the M12 to include some sort of IBIS and maintaining the same body size. Such M12 would be the bigger step-up camera from the M10 series. M11 prices will likely plummet significantly after such M12 is introduced especially if it resolves some other issues the M11 became known for so far.


Nov 15, 2023 at 07:09 AM
Nomads
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


Reading all this confirms in my mind that the M10R will be the only digital Leica Iíll ever own. Iíll use it until it can no longer be repaired.


Nov 15, 2023 at 03:38 PM
retrofocus
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


Nomads wrote:
Reading all this confirms in my mind that the M10R will be the only digital Leica Iíll ever own. Iíll use it until it can no longer be repaired.


The M10-R was released mid of 2020 but was manufactured before the pandemic and all its supply issues occurred. The M11 is a directly-after-pandemic camera....'nough said.



Nov 15, 2023 at 03:53 PM
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