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Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???

  
 
anselwannab
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


I see that Sony has the new global shutter for their new camera. It seems to me that is the tech that is missing from the M cameras to take them to the next level and get rid of the startup and shutter. Leica partners with Sony for sensors, correct? Maybe we'll get a global shutter on the next M camera?


Nov 09, 2023 at 12:36 AM
1bwana1
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


Maybe some day. But for now I hope Leica focus on image quality improvements in their M sensors rather than speed. The M cameras is not a speed oriented platform. About the only benefits I see coming from a global shutter sensor will be in flash photography or shooting wide open in very bright light. In those rare instances there are other existing ways to deal with those.


Nov 09, 2023 at 06:50 AM
BrandonSi
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


It will be interesting to see who will be next to adopt a global shutter. If I was a betting man, I wouldn't be betting on Leica. AFAIK, they've never sourced sensors from Sony for the M, though I think I remember reading something about Cmosis being close to similar capabilities. I could see perhaps an SL3 type implementation..

On that note, I would actually put my money on Panasonic to be next, and if that were the case I'd imagine we would see it deployed through to the Lumix lineup. I'd love to see an updated S1R with global shutter.



Nov 09, 2023 at 08:34 AM
fededuran
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


Maybe makes more sense to use this kind of tech in the SL line.


Nov 09, 2023 at 08:34 AM
1bwana1
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


BrandonSi wrote:
It will be interesting to see who will be next to adopt a global shutter. If I was a betting man, I wouldn't be betting on Leica. AFAIK, they've never sourced sensors from Sony for the M, though I think I remember reading something about Cmosis being close to similar capabilities. I could see perhaps an SL3 type implementation..

On that note, I would actually put my money on Panasonic to be next, and if that were the case I'd imagine we would see it deployed through to the Lumix lineup. I'd love to see an updated S1R with global shutter.
...Show more

The current leicas, including the M11, and Q3 all use Sony sensors as far as I know.

The question is not who will make Global Sensor cameras. It is who and when Sony will sell them one. Sony usually holds such things exclusively for a number of years. Using the stacked sensor as an exampled, Sony held it proprietary for a good number of years, then released it. Now a number of people are making cameras with them in them. Even the company making their own stacked sensor had to wait for Sony to issue patent license for them to make it.

I predict it will be a good number of years before anyone else can offer a FF Global Sensor camera.



Nov 09, 2023 at 11:25 AM
BrandonSi
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


1bwana1 wrote:
The current leicas, including the M11, and Q3 all use Sony sensors as far as I know.

The question is not who will make Global Sensor cameras. It is who and when Sony will sell them one. Sony usually holds such things exclusively for a number of years. Using the stacked sensor as an exampled, Sony held it proprietary for a good number of years, then released it. Now a number of people are making cameras with them in them. Even the company making their own stacked sensor had to wait for Sony to issue patent license for them to make
...Show more

Perhaps, but Sony has had commercially available global shutter sensors for years now. A good example is the APS-C sized IMX342LQA. Canon and Panasonic all have sensor production capabilities and don't need to rely on Sony, which is why I imagine Panasonic might be next to launch a global shutter camera, and I don't think it's too far of a stretch given the L-mount alliance for them to partner with another manufacturer, like Leica in the process..

Sony has a very large lead, and to your point, they probably will keep the FF sensor in the A9iii close to the chest for a while, but that doesn't prevent other companies from developing the technology.



Nov 09, 2023 at 11:50 AM
1bwana1
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


The open for sale Global Shutter Sensors are for industrial application and would not be suitable for an ICL camera. Those type of sensors have been available for a number of years.

Canon would be my bet on who is most likely to develop a suitable Global Shutter sensor. maybe as soon as the upcoming R1. I don't think any of the others are likely to do it.

Edited on Nov 09, 2023 at 08:00 PM · View previous versions



Nov 09, 2023 at 11:59 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


It would make total sense for the M12 if Leica decides to add IBIS in lieu of a mechanical shutter. No more rolling shutter when shooting with the electronic shutter like we see with the M11. At a minimum they should use a fast (read-out) stack sensor if going that route.


Nov 09, 2023 at 12:17 PM
flash
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


Won't happen soon. 1st you've got 18 months until the M12 and those specs are already locked in. Plus, what does it matter in a camera that shoots a few frames a second and no video. We can't even get EFCS in. a Leica. No chance for a global shutter.

Canon and Nikon will be next. Likely Canon. Next year is an Olympic year and both will need to have something ready for that. Rumors of an R1 are around already. *If* Leica were looking at it it'd be the SL3S, since no sensor more than 24MP has this tech (for) cameras) yet.

Also, we have ZERO idea about the performance of the new Sony sensor. No files are out yet as the doors of the cameras were taped shut at the launch. Min ISO of 250 and no information of what kind of DR we can expect. It might be fast but there's likely to be some trade-offs for that speed. Personally, I'd rather see a higher bit depth and EFCS than a faster readout in any high resolution camera.

Gordon



Nov 09, 2023 at 03:20 PM
flash
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


Fred Miranda wrote:
It would make total sense for the M12 if Leica decides to add IBIS in lieu of a mechanical shutter. No more rolling shutter when shooting with the electronic shutter like we see with the M11. At a minimum they should use a stack sensor if going that route.


IBIS can't just go in if you take the shutter out, unless some new in front of the sensor IBIS tech has been developed.

Just give us EFCS, Leica, and be done with it.

Gordon



Nov 09, 2023 at 03:22 PM
 


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Fred Miranda
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


flash wrote:
IBIS can't just go in if you take the shutter out, unless some new in front of the sensor IBIS tech has been developed.

Just give us EFCS, Leica, and be done with it.

Gordon


EFCS doesn't address the issue of rolling shutter.

As an example, the Nikon Z9, lacks a mechanical shutter and features IBIS:



Using a global shutter sensor or a fast read-out stacked sensor, could potentially enable Leica to incorporate IBIS without increasing the camera size by eliminating the shutter mechanism.



Nov 09, 2023 at 03:31 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


Fred Miranda wrote:
It would make total sense for the M12 if Leica decides to add IBIS in lieu of a mechanical shutter. No more rolling shutter when shooting with the electronic shutter like we see with the M11. At a minimum they should use a fast (read-out) stack sensor if going that route.


Yea, drop the shutter and add IBIS. But IBIS is behind the sensor while the shutter is in front. Given the tight confines of the M body and deep lens mount to sensor distance compared to contemporary mirrorless cameras, squeezing IBIS in there will remain a significant challenge.

I agree they could skip global shutter and just get a fast stacked sensor like what Nikon has done with the Z8 and Z9.



Nov 09, 2023 at 04:25 PM
algrove
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


I bet Sony will milk this sole ownership for a long time. What past the SL3 and perhaps vein past an SL3S. As for the M, 2026 maybe. What will that be the M14-hope not the M13.


Nov 09, 2023 at 05:06 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


rscheffler wrote:
Yea, drop the shutter and add IBIS. But IBIS is behind the sensor while the shutter is in front. Given the tight confines of the M body and deep lens mount to sensor distance compared to contemporary mirrorless cameras, squeezing IBIS in there will remain a significant challenge.

I agree they could skip global shutter and just get a fast stacked sensor like what Nikon has done with the Z8 and Z9.


There's a chance that a future Leica M12 could use the Sony A1 sensor. In this case, the sensor might not be too expensive, and Sony might be willing to offer older technology, considering they likely have a successor to the A1 by then. The benefit would be the lack of a rolling shutter in electronic shooting, removing the need for a mechanical shutter while keeping a high resolution of 50MP. Without the space needed for a mechanical shutter, Leica could make a remarkable engineering move and add IBIS without increasing the camera's size. However, personally, I wouldn't choose a camera like that as we're moving from mechanical to electronic photography.

The upcoming SL3 will probably have a modified version of the same 61MP sensor found in the M11/Q3.



Nov 09, 2023 at 05:26 PM
flash
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


Fred Miranda wrote:
EFCS doesn't address the issue of rolling shutter.

As an example, the Nikon Z9, lacks a mechanical shutter and features IBIS:



Using a global shutter sensor or a fast read-out stacked sensor, could potentially enable Leica to incorporate IBIS without increasing the camera size by eliminating the shutter mechanism.


Roling shutter is a Z8 issue. Is it really an M issue though?

Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't say no. But we don't know what the image quality implications of Sony's new sensor are yet. On an M, I'm likely at ISO 64 than ISO 6400. I want the best sensor performance I can get and I'm not sure this will do that, yet.

And I don't yet see how removing the shutter will allow IBIS? Is there a single front mounted IBIS system yet? Maybe we needed a global sensor for it to happen? I don't know...

Eventually global shutters will be the norm. Less moving parts. Less failure points. And I have my Sony A1 so I REALLY get the benefits of blackout free shooting. SL3? Absolutely! EVF camera for M lenses? First in line!! But in an M??

Gordon



Nov 09, 2023 at 05:32 PM
flash
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


Fred Miranda wrote:
There's a chance that a future Leica M12 could use the Sony A1 sensor. In this case, the sensor might not be too expensive, and Sony might be willing to offer older technology, considering they likely have a successor to the A1 by then. The benefit would be the lack of a rolling shutter in electronic shooting, removing the need for a mechanical shutter while keeping a high resolution of 50MP. Without the space needed for a mechanical shutter, Leica could make a remarkable engineering move and add IBIS without increasing the camera's size. However, personally, I wouldn't choose
...Show more

Again, I see the 50MP A1 sensor as a bigger benefit to the SL3 than the M12. Not the other way around. Mind you I wouldn't say no to either.

Gordon



Nov 09, 2023 at 05:35 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


flash wrote:
Roling shutter is a Z8 issue. Is it really an M issue though?

Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't say no. But we don't know what the image quality implications of Sony's new sensor are yet. On an M, I'm likely at ISO 64 than ISO 6400. I want the best sensor performance I can get and I'm not sure this will do that, yet.

And I don't yet see how removing the shutter will allow IBIS? Is there a single front mounted IBIS system yet? Maybe we needed a global sensor for it to happen? I don't know...

Eventually global shutters will
...Show more

A readout speed of 1/10 is a concern for me, especially for moving subjects. Don't you agree? It doesn't seem ideal for a camera designed for street photography.

The SL3 is about to hit the shelves soon, and it's likely to boast the M11 61MP sensor along with Leica's triple resolution mumbo jumbo.



Nov 09, 2023 at 05:41 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


Yup, I think the Leica M12 is more likely to inherit the Sony stacked sensor than it is the global shutter sensor. I can't see Leica going backward on resolution from the M11 all the way to 24mp, but I can seem them using the 50mp A1 sensor like Fred mentioned. I don't think Leica will use the global shutter sensor until the resolution is higher.

It would take a miracle to engineer IBIS to fit the M12 even without the optical rangefinder and mechanical shutter in there. They would have to get really creative since the sensor is already very tightly sandwiched up against the rear of the camera. They could make the body thicker, but that wasn't well received last time they did that.



Nov 09, 2023 at 05:42 PM
flash
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


Fred Miranda wrote:
A readout speed of 1/10 is a concern for me, especially for moving subjects. Don't you agree? It doesn't seem ideal for a camera designed for street photography.

The SL3 is about to hit the shelves soon, and it's likely to boast the M11 61MP sensor along with Leica's triple resolution mumbo jumbo.


I rarely if ever, use the electronic shutter on my M11. so, it's a non-issue for me. Probably why I advocate for EFCS over this.

However, you made me think, *would I use electronic shutter if the M12 had the A1 sensor?* and the answer to that is yes. Definitely. Almost always. So you have changed my mind.

SL3 is March/April.

Gordon



Nov 09, 2023 at 05:54 PM
anselwannab
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Sony Global Shutter Headed for Leica M???


To me it is all about the ability to shoot with out sound and do it quickly. Everytime I use my M11, I just end up jamming the shutter button a couple of times as I bring it up to get the camera awake and running.

IBIS, sure. High standard ISO an issue- use a glass filter on the sensor with ND built in the bring it down.

Its all about getting to a shutter that is ready more quickly and is quieter than the old film Leicas.



Nov 09, 2023 at 06:13 PM
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