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Sony A9III Shutter

Eric Mastilak
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Sony A9III Shutter

Will the inclusion of a global shutter force Canon to do the same in its upcoming body releases? Competition is a great thing!

Nov 08, 2023 at 12:26 PM

rscheffler
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Sony A9III Shutter

Like DSLR to mirrorless and non-stacked to stacked sensors, it is only a matter of time before global shutter sensors become more commonplace, including Canon's cameras. The question really, IMO, is only when.

Nov 08, 2023 at 12:34 PM

deepbluejh
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Sony A9III Shutter

I can almost guarantee you that the upcoming R1 will have a global shutter - and a similar price point as the A9III. It's been in development for a long time, it's just that Sony happened to release theirs a little bit earlier than Canon.

Nov 08, 2023 at 12:39 PM

jedibrain
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Sony A9III Shutter

I am not convinced global shutter is a must have. At a certain readout speed, a sequential stacked sensor shows no rolling shutter. At that point, what's the advantage? I know there are some, but my point is the value diminishes as the other technology advances.

Sort of like a few years ago, when the first BSI non-stacked sensors came out. They were the 'only' way to get the low noise and DR improvements. Except a generation or two later, FSI sensors were just as good again. Same could happen here. We just have to see!

Brian

Nov 08, 2023 at 12:58 PM

CanadaMark
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Sony A9III Shutter

It probably depends on what Canon decides the target market is for the camera, assuming we're talking about the long rumored R1. The A9III seems to be a niche camera aimed squarely at sports photographers. Take away the global shutter, and it's basically an A9II with modernized AF and a faster frame rate (not at all a bad thing). The price premium you pay for the global shutter appears to be very steep, though that isn't unreasonable with no viable alternatives.

Sensors with global shutters typically have a narrower ISO range, worse DR, higher power consumption, and higher base ISO. At least on paper, it seems those remain tradeoffs for the A9III. Dumping the data from 24MP all at once is impressive as it is, but if the R1 is going to have 45+ MP, it would be that much harder to do. Canon is a huge company with lots of resources though, so you never know.

The main advantages of a global shutter are of course no rolling shutter, extremely fast shutter speeds, fewer issues with LED/difficult lighting, and extremely fast sync speeds. For the most part, those things are already achieved with existing stacked sensor bodies outside of niche cases. 1/80,000 flash sync sounds cool on paper, but the flashes that can actually do that cost more than a car and can only do so at an extremely low power level.

What the A9III will be very good at will be things like dealing with LED lighting at sports events, extreme niche applications like capturing a bullet leaving a gun, and guaranteeing certain 'target' spots frames such as a baseball leaving a bat with zero distortion and a RAW file to work with (120fps+ is already available in existing bodies but not in RAW).

My personal guess would be that the R1 does not use a global shutter unless they can overcome all the downsides that currently exist, unless they are going to also position the R1 as a specialized sports body, but they already have a fast, low-ish MP body with the R3.

The thing I really appreciate is that there is now a global shutter in a mainstream FF camera. Going forwards, all the major camera companies will be pouring resources into overcoming the existing drawbacks and everyone is likely to benefit at some point.

Nov 08, 2023 at 01:03 PM

bdbits
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Sony A9III Shutter

Rolling shutter is only one of many benefits. Many of the other features of the A9iii are directly attributable to the global shutter, as was pointed out in the presentation, not to mention freeing up room and the complications necessary to support a mechanical shutter.

Assuming GS-capable sensors develop to the point they are price-competitive, why keep the mechanical shutter? For now the GS might limit DR, noise, etc. (though Sony does not think it does). But you know eventually that will be overcome. At that point, like a mirror, there is little to no reason to keep including a mechanical shutter.

Nov 08, 2023 at 01:11 PM

goalerjones
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Sony A9III Shutter

Canon does have a global FF sensor, but it $30k atm... https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/canon-announces-its-first-full-frame-global-shutter-sensor

Nov 08, 2023 at 01:31 PM

RoamingScott
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Sony A9III Shutter

Gonna be interesting in here when the R1 is just a run of the mill incremental upgrade camera.

Nov 08, 2023 at 01:33 PM

action99
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Sony A9III Shutter

bdbits wrote:
Rolling shutter is only one of many benefits. Many of the other features of the A9iii are directly attributable to the global shutter, as was pointed out in the presentation, not to mention freeing up room and the complications necessary to support a mechanical shutter.

Assuming GS-capable sensors develop to the point they are price-competitive, why keep the mechanical shutter? For now the GS might limit DR, noise, etc. (though Sony does not think it does). But you know eventually that will be overcome. At that point, like a mirror, there is little to no reason to keep including a mechanical...Show more →

Early tests show 1 stop noisier and less DR for the A9 III vs II but let’s wait for more tests.

Nikon already ditched the mechanical shutter on Z9 and Z8 and are not GS.

Nov 08, 2023 at 01:56 PM

Pete73
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Sony A9III Shutter

If the A9III lives up to the hype and performs well its going to be hard to buy a camera without a global shutter, R1 included. If it presents another set of issues such as limited DR, noise, or other unforeseen problems then we will have decisions to make and endless forum debates to go with that.

Nov 08, 2023 at 02:05 PM

jedibrain
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Sony A9III Shutter

bdbits wrote:
Rolling shutter is only one of many benefits. Many of the other features of the A9iii are directly attributable to the global shutter, as was pointed out in the presentation, not to mention freeing up room and the complications necessary to support a mechanical shutter.

Assuming GS-capable sensors develop to the point they are price-competitive, why keep the mechanical shutter? For now the GS might limit DR, noise, etc. (though Sony does not think it does). But you know eventually that will be overcome. At that point, like a mirror, there is little to no reason to keep including a mechanical...Show more →

Z9 has no mechanical shutter and is a sequential read sensor.

Brian

Nov 08, 2023 at 02:11 PM

jwcdds
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Sony A9III Shutter

CanadaMark wrote:
120fps+ is already available in existing bodies but not in RAW

Actually, R3 can do this in RAW (though no continuous AF/AE) and because the buffer gets filled, the camera kind of locks up for awhile until buffer clears.

More of a silly parlor trick feature. Maybe an industry spy had leaked the now-announced A9iii with 120fps and the boys at Canon decided to add in that silly feature to claim, "oh look, we did it first!"

(jokes/silliness aside, back to regular-scheduled programming)

Nov 08, 2023 at 02:54 PM

gdanmitchell
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Sony A9III Shutter

Eric Mastilak wrote:
Will the inclusion of a global shutter force Canon to do the same in its upcoming body releases? Competition is a great thing!

This is a technology that will eventually be ubiquitous, so we can expect it to gradually appear in more and more products as it improves and the costs go down.

Who knows how soon it will happen in other brands and models?

Nov 08, 2023 at 02:59 PM

PurpleSKY
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Sony A9III Shutter

Funny how new tech comes and the first though is that everything without it, is obsolete. My R3 is 90% of what this is, and the fast readout of the electronic shutter has never created any distortion artifacts, ever. My Red Komodo X has a global shutter and tbh, this is a sensor best served for video, as motion creates most of the distortion artifacts we see. How did we live sooo long without global shutter? It means it's great, but doesn't mean we necessarily need it. The best and unsung hero of the a9iii is the no flash sync limit, which is great for flash shooters but most won't take advantage of that. This is all great on paper but most wouldn't want to take the DR and noise hit that global shutter introduces, and would prob trade that for less noise and higher DR.

In all, I'm in favor of technology that drives us forward, but I am personally tired of the "how did we ever live without this, and every camera going forward must do this" narrative that many scream as new tech comes out. Sony did make a great camera, and we see what innovation & inflation (innoflation) has done to the price. This moved the a9iii up market and only forces the r1 and a1ii even hire in price... But is it worth it? If you can't get the shot at 20fps, u ain't gonna get it at 120fps. My 2c, but I am glad companies are innovating, and real cameras aren't dying. My R3 is safely still in my "best cam ever" category, and it's usefulness and utility is beyond anything I've ever had (and I've had a lot). Love what you have and keep on shooting!!!!

Nov 08, 2023 at 03:23 PM

artsupreme
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Sony A9III Shutter

PurpleSKY wrote:
But is it worth it? If you can't get the shot at 20fps, u ain't gonna get it at 120fps.

Go to the baseball field and shoot a player batting at 20fps and watch how many bat on ball shots you get. Then take your R3 and put it in the 120fps burst mode and do the same thing. This is the type of thing 120fps is perfect for. It's a night and day difference with 120fps almost guaranteeing you getting the shot with one short blip. There are a million other examples in sports and racing where 120fps will nail these specific shots that are much more difficult to get with 20fps/30fps/40fps.

There's a lot of comments on the forums about 120fps being overkill, but that's because these people aren't shooting the types of things it's used for.

Nov 08, 2023 at 03:50 PM

Tony5787
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Sony A9III Shutter

Unless Canon’s like a generation ahead with their global shutter sensors, I’d rather see them stick with a stacked sensor for the R1. It’s apparent in the samples that are coming out from the a9 III that low light is not its strong suit.

Nov 08, 2023 at 04:16 PM

scottiet
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Sony A9III Shutter

IMO Canon R1 needs to have a global shutter. Having shot sports against led ad panels, it was a nightmare with banding. I will buy the camera for that reason alone. Can’t imagine the Olympics won’t have the same situation.

Nov 08, 2023 at 04:23 PM

melcat
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Sony A9III Shutter

It looks like I “dodged a bullet” by getting the R3, which I did mainly because the α9 II was so old and I could not wait for its successor.

The idea was that I would have a single body that could do the high frame rate wildlife stuff and the low-ISO landscape stuff. The α9 III is apparently not that body, and the α1 is even older and less-maintained by Sony (notice the largest cheer at the release presentation was for new firmware for that, not the new camera and lens).

The benefits of the global shutter for sports shooting are clear. On the other hand the fast shutter in the R3 is sufficient for wildlife, and the animals do not pose in front of LED billboards. It seems to me that, with global shutter technology as it is in the α9 III, sports and wildlife cameras should be different things. People here will also claim the wildlife camera needs more pixels, which the sports one doesn’t.

Nov 08, 2023 at 07:30 PM

AmbientMike
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Sony A9III Shutter

I guess I don't care much at this point? I tend to zone out reading about more tech, personally 5fps is more than I usually need

So if it doesn't have the DR I guess it's a pile of junk like 5DsR, 5D3 etc to hear some tell it. No wait that's 5 years ago. gets pretty ridiculous.....

Nov 08, 2023 at 07:43 PM

rscheffler
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Sony A9III Shutter

Tony5787 wrote:
Unless Canon’s like a generation ahead with their global shutter sensors, I’d rather see them stick with a stacked sensor for the R1. It’s apparent in the samples that are coming out from the a9 III that low light is not its strong suit.

Adobe Denoise, DxO, Topaz, etc. to the rescue?

Apparently there was a time long ago when CMOS was inferior to CCD... I'm guessing we're at a similar point now with GS vs. stacked.

Nov 08, 2023 at 08:30 PM

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