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Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video

1bwana1
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video

Eric214 wrote:
One thing about Sony is they are known for buying into specific industries, like Minolta for photography, and pushing hard to get market share and then sit back and rest on their laurels and fall back a bit. They did with TVs and other things. This is a bit evident in Sony's lack of interest in putting out firmware updates to their cameras, instead focusing on camera body after body with new features in them not going to the flagship models. Would be very frustrating to Sony user I would image.

Sony is also a company when it feels like it,...Show more →

Yes, Sony is known for buying into industries. Not just that, they are known for buying both their vendors and their customers when they see opportunity. This has been a long term practice in industry and is just business school 101. No big deal.

I don't know if it is resting on their laurels to not put out firmware updates for products that are stable, class leading, and still the industry benchmarks like the A1. After all, it is years from its release and the A1 is still the camera that reviewers benchmark their latest against. Which after all is how Steve Perry is testing the latest Z9 firmware update isn't it. Steve Perry has now judged that the Z9 is on par with the A1 in most things, and may be a little ahead in a few. But both are perfectly capable of getting any of the images he attempted. That is a very impressive record for Sony to have achieved, and for a camera that has been in production for so long already. It has taken these many firmware updates for Nikon to achieve that performance. This is the primary reason for the difference in updates between the Z9 and A1. The updates across the rest of Nikon's older line have not made them competitive with the industry. Performance is so much more important than frequency of updates.

Your assessment of Sony's menu system is years out of date. At one time they were over complicated, and poorly arranged. However now even such Nikon stalwarts as Thom Hogan puts them and the resulting haptics in first place.

Here is a quote and a link:

"Nikon really owned camera customization for quite some time (dating back into the film SLR era). They've gotten lazy at defending that and no longer lead. Sony does. (1) Sony allows almost any programmable control to be set to almost anything in the menu system; (2) Sony has a better MR (U# in Nikon parlance) system, in almost every respect; (3) Sony now allows saving multiple, named settings files to cards. That's just things at the overall level. Sony is also getting nuanced things right that Nikon isn't, too. Nikon is too paternal and minimal in its approach now. It used to be that Nikon only allowed you to customize the Fn3 button to three things; now it's up to seven (on the D6, which probably indicates what it'll be on the Z9). I'll also once again point out the missing AF-ON+AF-area mode customizations that are sorely missing on the Z cameras. Sorry, Nikon, but you've fallen from #1 in customization to #2 or maybe even #3 among the full frame mirrorless players."

https://www.zsystemuser.com/nikon-z-system-news-and/2021-newsviews/catching-up-with-sony.html

Nikon continues to try and address this issue with firmware in its latest cameras, and is doing a good job with that. But, this may be why it gets so many updates. It is needed.

He has posted this multiple times, in multiple articles. From personal experience I can say that at this point Sony's build, selection, ergonomics, menus, and haptics are excellent. At least on par with the rest of the industry. Form factor is a personal preference, not a quality indicator so I will accept you view on that.

The idea that Sony will exit the camera and imaging business is just foolishness. It is something one only hears speculation about in Nikon forums. There has not been a company that has dominated the imaging and content creation industry at this level since Kodak in the early days of popular film cameras. ICL cameras are just a small part of that. Sensors are todays equivalent of film. Sony is the dominant player in imaging sensors. This is true for pretty much all layers of content creation. Sony has a stated goal of being the leader in content including gaming from hardware, to IP, and distribution. They are hugely successful in this, are are still expanding rapidly. To think that Sony is considering leaving in the near or even medium future just doesn't hold up.

Nov 05, 2023 at 04:45 PM

aboutthelight
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video

Nov 05, 2023 at 05:01 PM

bernardl
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video

1bwana1 wrote:
Your assessment of Sony's menu system is years out of date. At one time they were over complicated, and poorly arranged. However now even such Nikon stalwarts as Thom Hogan puts them and the resulting haptics in first place.

Here is a quote and a link:

"Nikon really owned camera customization for quite some time (dating back into the film SLR era). They've gotten lazy at defending that and no longer lead. Sony does. (1) Sony allows almost any programmable control to be set to almost anything in the menu system; (2) Sony has a better MR (U# in Nikon parlance) system,...Show more →

Any particular reason why you complain that the assessment of Sony's menus is out of date then proceed to quote an article from Thom Hogan dating 2021... without mentioning it's 2+ years old?

All that in a thread devoted to the Z9's AF performance?

Cheers,
Bernard

Nov 05, 2023 at 05:24 PM

Alistair1
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video

aboutthelight wrote:
We are blessed with options of all sizes, shapes and capabilities. It’s an amazing time made even more amazing by subject recognition.

As an aside I have not had a problem or complaint about the menus from Canon, Nikon or Sony. They all took a bit of time to learn and then became second nature to navigate. The same goes for quality. All have been perfect for me and have never broken or failed.

Also I am not one bit frustrated re firmware. The A1 is a remarkable camera that to this day is still the smallest, lightest and fastest...Show more →

Since you so helpfully pointed out the inadequacies of Steve Perry's analysis, you may wish to apply equal rigor to your own; Perhaps you mean that the Sony is small and light and therefore suits your own physique but won't suit many others. Also that it has the fastest frame rate for lossy compressed raw but lags Canon and Nikon in startup time, buffer clearance rate, 12 bit internal recording speed, card speed etc. And that it is indeed a remarkable camera to this day for what you do.you

Nov 05, 2023 at 05:34 PM

1bwana1
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video

bernardl wrote:
Any particular reason why you complain that the assessment of Sony's menus is out of date then proceed to quote an article from Thom Hogan dating 2021... without mentioning it's 2+ years old?

All that in a thread devoted to the Z9's AF performance?

Cheers,
Bernard

Yes, a very relevant and particular reason as a matter of fact.

The assertation that I was responding to is that the Sony menus and ergos were bad. That was framed as being the current situation. My point is that as far back as 2021 some well respected reviewers found that no longer to be the case. My point is not the current generation of Nikon's are bad, only that the expressed view of the Sony was out of date.

I think that the article being 2+ years old supports my point very well.

You will notice that Steve Perry was comparing to the Sony, and that the post i was responding to was about the Sony. I didn't interject Sony into this thread. Others including the author of the video, and other posters did that. So Sony seems to be very relevant to in the context of this thread. This concept of thread purity is so lame and insecure.

Edited on Nov 05, 2023 at 05:56 PM · View previous versions

Nov 05, 2023 at 05:49 PM

1bwana1
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video

Nov 05, 2023 at 05:52 PM

indusphoto
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video

1bwana1 wrote:
Yes, Sony is known for buying into industries. Not just that, they are known for buying both their vendors and their customers when they see opportunity. This has been a long term practice in industry and is just business school 101. No big deal.

I don't know if it is resting on their laurels to not put out firmware updates for products that are stable, class leading, and still the industry benchmarks like the A1. After all, it is years from its release and the A1 is still the camera that reviewers benchmark their latest against. Which after all is how...Show more →

If the only reason that you buy Sony A1 is to take photos of birds in flight, and nothing else, then yes A1 is still the benchmark. Otherwise it got old as soon as A74 was released. Nikon, Canon and other brand cameras (all of them) share the same AF performance between stills and videos (as do recen Sony cameras). They can detect subjects even if the eyes are not visible. With varying degrees, their AWB and colors are much better out of the box. The stabilizing is much better, etc.. Sony could address some of these in firmware updates but they haven't.

Your assessment of Sony's menu system is years out of date.

Although Nikon Z8/Z9 have made some improvements but I have the same conclusion. Nikon customization is poor compared to any modern camera brands.

Nov 05, 2023 at 05:52 PM

Alistair1
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video

1bwana1 wrote:
I think the fact that even you feel that the current benchmark is still the Sony A1 says everything that needs to be said. One day you just might get over that need.

Where did that come from?

Nov 05, 2023 at 05:58 PM

1bwana1
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video

indusphoto wrote:
If the only reason that you buy Sony A1 is to take photos of birds in flight, and nothing else, then yes A1 is still the benchmark. Otherwise it got old as soon as A74 was released. Nikon, Canon and other brand cameras (all of them) share the same AF performance between stills and videos (as do recen Sony cameras). They can detect subjects even if the eyes are not visible. With varying degrees, their AWB and colors are much better out of the box. The stabilizing is much better, etc.. Sony could address some of these in firmware updates...Show more →

Actually I rarely take pictures of birds even though I live within walking distance to multiple notable bird photography sites that in season hosts numerous workshops people from around the World sign up for. Birds are not a big area of interest for me. Except of course when they leave a calling card on my car.

Much of the improvements in AF in Sony's latest cameras seem to be linked to harward so are not good candidates for firmware updates. That being the case we will have to wait for the next generation of A1 to get those no matter Sony's view on updates.

Edited on Nov 05, 2023 at 06:10 PM · View previous versions

Nov 05, 2023 at 06:01 PM

aboutthelight
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video

Alistair1 wrote:
Since you so helpfully pointed out the inadequacies of Steve Perry's analysis, you may wish to apply equal rigor to your own; Perhaps you mean that the Sony is small and light and therefore suits your own physique but won't suit many others. Also that it has the fastest frame rate for lossy compressed raw but lags Canon and Nikon in startup time, buffer clearance rate, 12 bit internal recording speed, card speed etc. And that it is indeed a remarkable camera to this day for what you do.you

No I don’t mean that at all. It is the smallest, lightest and fastest camera in this range. It is the only one that can do full raw at 20fps and only that can do compressed raw at 30fps. Of course each camera and system have pros and cons and no one camera or system is best at everything. That is why we are blessed with options to pick the one that best suits our needs. I am not interested in arguing. I am not claiming any one system or camera is best. I will say it again, in my opinion there are far too many talks on youtube making grand claims based off of basic and easy photographic subjects. If you disagree that is perfectly fine. You are entitled to your opinion as I am mine. Listen I like Steve. I ran into him in FL and gave him spots to go and shoot stuff. I even gave him cranberries and nuts to feed to scrub jays and gave him gps coordinates of exactly where to find them. But that doesn’t mean that I can’t be critical of a video.

I prefer to let my photos do the talking. Why don’t you follow the link to my Instagram and have a look at the photos on there and then decide for yourself if I am entitled to an opinion about auto focus and bird photography. I have not posted photos on FM for years but don’t let that fool you into thinking that I don’t know what I am talking about with regards to photography and birds.

Nov 05, 2023 at 06:02 PM

1bwana1
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video

Alistair1 wrote:
Where did that come from?

From your doing a direct comparison to the A1 in a range of attributes other than the subject of this thread which is Z9 AF firmware updates and how that moves the Z9 comparisons to the A1. You seem to judge all Z9 performance in relation to the A1. Reads like a benchmarking reference to me.

Make sense?

You will notice that our friend aboutthelight is not making claims about the superiority of any system. He is trying to discuss his view on the content of the video which is the subject of this thread.

Nov 05, 2023 at 06:06 PM

Alistair1
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video

aboutthelight wrote:
No I don’t mean that at all. It is the smallest, lightest and fastest camera in this range. It is the only one that can do full raw at 20fps and only that can do compressed raw at 30fps. Of course each camera and system have pros and cons and no one camera or system is best at everything. That is why we are blessed with options to pick the one that best suits our needs. I am not interested in arguing. I am not claiming any one system or camera is best. I will say it again, in my...Show more →

You are clearly interested in arguing, for why else do you come to this forum when you have stated clearly that you have no interest in Nikon equipment. And you then proceed to make factually incorrect statements.

Nov 05, 2023 at 06:23 PM

Alistair1
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video

1bwana1 wrote:
From your doing a direct comparison to the A1 in a range of attributes other than the subject of this thread which is Z9 AF firmware updates and how that moves the Z9 comparisons to the A1. You seem to judge all Z9 performance in relation to the A1. Reads like a benchmarking reference to me.

Make sense?

You will notice that our friend aboutthelight is not making claims about the superiority of any system. He is trying to discuss his view on the content of the video which is the subject of this thread.

"It is the smallest, lightest and fastest camera in this range. It is the only one that can do full raw at 20fps and only that can do compressed raw at 30fps." If that is not a claim of superiority, I don't know what is. And of course it is factually incorrect, even you cannot argue otherwise.

Nov 05, 2023 at 06:25 PM

aboutthelight
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video

Nov 05, 2023 at 06:50 PM

RoamingScott
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video

Alistair1 wrote:
You are clearly interested in arguing

Remove the plank from your own eye

Nov 05, 2023 at 06:51 PM

suteetat
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video

The only thing that bother me was that Steve just tried to show that when a bird is out of focus, Z9 seemed to find the bird faster and locked onto the bird easily. Someone obviously did not get that or need to belittle the finding and had to say testing on easy seashore bird is useless and is not a swallow blah blah blah. A much more useless opinion than the video in my opinion.

Anybody with any brain would already realize that the example is a data point for certain circumstance and does not implied total superiority of a system.

Edited on Nov 05, 2023 at 07:21 PM · View previous versions

Nov 05, 2023 at 07:02 PM

Jemini
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video

Is the Bird mode coming to Z8? Sorry for the ignorance. I kind of remember seeing something like "Z8 users have to wait" statement when this FW was released. Any confirmation on this?

Edited on Nov 05, 2023 at 07:12 PM · View previous versions

Nov 05, 2023 at 07:02 PM

Alistair1
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video

RoamingScott wrote:
Remove the plank from your own eye

I am not familiar with that term, what does it mean?

Nov 05, 2023 at 07:03 PM

RoamingScott
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video

Yes, early 2024.

Jemini wrote:
Is the Bird mode coming to Z8? Sorry for the ignorance. I kind of remember seeing something like "Z8 users have to wait" statement when this FW was released. Any confirmation on this?

Nov 05, 2023 at 07:08 PM

1bwana1
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video

Alistair1 wrote:
"It is the smallest, lightest and fastest camera in this range. It is the only one that can do full raw at 20fps and only that can do compressed raw at 30fps." If that is not a claim of superiority, I don't know what is. And of course it is factually incorrect, even you cannot argue otherwise.

Not trying to argue but exactly what is it that is factually incorrect in that statement? Maybe I am missing something.

"It is the smallest, lightest and fastest camera in this range." I think this is true if the range we are talking about is high mpx, stacked sensor, full frame cameras. I think that is a reasonable range in the context of this discussion.

"It is the only one that can do full raw at 20fps" I think that is also true if we are talking about uncompressed RAW. The Z9/8 do 20 fps but in a compressed RAW format. Lossy or not.

"only that can do compressed raw at 30fps." The A1 shoots 30 fps in compressed RAW, the Z9/8 only in jpeg. So that is also true.

So the specifications claims seem to be fully true. Whether those specification indicate superiority is up to your view and preferences. In your case in seems that maybe they do.

Nov 05, 2023 at 07:11 PM

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