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Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video

  
 
aboutthelight
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video


Alistair1 wrote:
Wow, they must have kept the good one for you and gave Steve the dud.
The other use cases you question were well covered on the Nikon board on the release of 4.10. It's all fabulous.
I very much doubt that Steve Perry would declare findings based on less than rigorous testing. Especially given the existential angst he knows it causes in some.


To be clear I sincerely hope that Nikon has surpassed Sony when it comes to AF. That will just push Sony to push the limits even further on the next release. Who knows that may be in a few days. I am not even considering changing again any time soon. I switched when Nikon had a d850 and Sony had an a1 and mirrorless 600. There was no comparison. That said Nikon has done a fantastic job of catching up with their cameras (assuming you are OK with larger, slower and heavier of course) and they have surpassed Sony with their lenses. No doubt. However that still does not change the fact that doing a video with giant slow birds or distant birds as your subject and showing that as proof has little to no value for me. Look up the B&H education channel on youtube. I just did a talk for them on BIF and included something like 29 species in the talk. From giant slow birds to small fast and erratic birds like swallows, titmice, vireos and the like in flight. And the A1 is absolutely killer for those things. The point is that to me that video is a poor example of what these cameras can actually do. I find little to no use in focusing on a distant gull or heron not moving and claiming that is better for anything. Here is the link for the talk but I don't know if it will work. Also for clarity I included a few d850 shots in the talk as well.




Nov 04, 2023 at 09:02 PM
1bwana1
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video


^^^^^ Nice video aboutthelight. Thanks for sharing.


Nov 04, 2023 at 09:06 PM
RoamingScott
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video


aboutthelight wrote:
To be clear I sincerely hope that Nikon has surpassed Sony when it comes to AF. That will just push Sony to push the limits even further on the next release. Who knows that may be in a few days. I am not even considering changing again any time soon. I switched when Nikon had a d850 and Sony had an a1 and mirrorless 600. There was no comparison. That said Nikon has done a fantastic job of catching up with their cameras (assuming you are OK with larger, slower and heavier of course) and they have surpassed Sony with
...Show more

Most of those shots (admittedly I skimmed it) are pretty basic bird flying side to side with wings open type shots. They are mostly great shots because the light is great. The Z9 has zero issues taking photos of gliding/banking birds in amazing light. Nothing in that video looks remotely "A1 only" tier.

Wish I could afford a 600/4, can only dream of the shots I'd get...



Nov 04, 2023 at 09:18 PM
aboutthelight
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video


1bwana1 wrote:
^^^^^ Nice video aboutthelight. Thanks for sharing.


Thank you. I have spent a significant amount of time photographing birds in flight and testing what these cameras can do. The video has a small sample of the shots that I have with the A1 and other cameas. I just see so many videos online claiming stuff but showing such poor examples as proof. If being fully honest I don't understand why people listen when the examples are so clearly inferior or simply basic species that any camera made in the last 10 years could smoke. Let alone the cutting edge flagship cameras.



Nov 04, 2023 at 09:22 PM
aboutthelight
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video


RoamingScott wrote:
Most of those shots (admittedly I skimmed it) are pretty basic bird flying side to side with wings open type shots. They are mostly great shots because the light is great. The Z9 has zero issues taking photos of gliding/banking birds in amazing light. Nothing in that video looks remotely "A1 only" tier.

Wish I could afford a 600/4, can only dream of the shots I'd get...


I fully agree that they are not A1 only shots. (well a few were d850 shots with 500pf) That is actually my point. All of these cameras can take these shots. R5 as well. But small, fast and erratic birds against varied backgrounds (not sky) are significantly more difficult for any auto focus system. They are orders of magnitude more difficult than a heron standing or a cardinal in a bush. So showing those as proof to me just don't prove anything.



Nov 04, 2023 at 09:26 PM
RoamingScott
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video


I get was Steve was going for, in so far as showing off the shape/contrast recognition algorithm that's in play with Bird AF on vs other subject detection modes. He did a piss poor job showing anything else off, like the new predictive algorithm that keeps birds in focus when they disappear behind obstacles.


Nov 04, 2023 at 09:31 PM
aboutthelight
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video


RoamingScott wrote:
I get was Steve was going for, in so far as showing off the shape/contrast recognition algorithm that's in play with Bird AF on vs other subject detection modes. He did a piss poor job showing anything else off, like the new predictive algorithm that keeps birds in focus when they disappear behind obstacles.


Yes it makes sense but there is far more to AF than that. Many have said the AF in the A7RV with the subject recognition is better than the A1 and is a bit stickier. So I fully expect the Z9 if it has that now to be exceptional. My gripe is with the video. For me there are just way too many videos out there making big claims with sub par proof. I mean the number of BIF videos on youtube showing egrets taking off and other equally giant slow birds is maddening.



Nov 04, 2023 at 09:54 PM
RoamingScott
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video


aboutthelight wrote:
Yes it makes sense but there is far more to AF than that. Many have said the AF in the A7RV with the subject recognition is better than the A1 and is a bit stickier. So I fully expect the Z9 if it has that now to be exceptional. My gripe is with the video. For me there are just way too many videos out there making big claims with sub par proof. I mean the number of BIF videos on youtube showing egrets taking off and other equally giant slow birds is maddening.


That's a funny choice since, in my experience, egrets are the birds that throw the Z9 for the biggest loop.



Nov 04, 2023 at 09:56 PM
RoamingScott
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video


This is my go-to image when people ask about 4.1...find me a bird that is harder to shoot than a hunting dragonfly and that's WITH a teleconverter on, should be theoretically even better performance with it off.








Nov 04, 2023 at 09:59 PM
aboutthelight
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video


yeah I don't shoot bugs so I can't tell you how hard it is. Mostly I see them hovering but I never pointed my camera at them. But it is great that Nikon has continued to make advancements and improvements. Especially since the Z9 was not really a finished product when it was released


Nov 04, 2023 at 10:04 PM
 


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Alistair1
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video


aboutthelight wrote:
To be clear I sincerely hope that Nikon has surpassed Sony when it comes to AF. That will just push Sony to push the limits even further on the next release. Who knows that may be in a few days. I am not even considering changing again any time soon. I switched when Nikon had a d850 and Sony had an a1 and mirrorless 600. There was no comparison. That said Nikon has done a fantastic job of catching up with their cameras (assuming you are OK with larger, slower and heavier of course) and they have surpassed Sony with
...Show more

Interesting power point presentation and Q&A. It is always good to see how others approach bird photography and I hope it is successful in attracting more participants to your workshop.

I did shoot the A1 and 200-600 for a while and agree that it is a fantastic set-up for some shooters. But as a hybrid shooter, by the time you rig an A1 to do what the Z9 can do, it is the A1 that is too bulky, heavy and lacking in agility and that is before we even factor in lenses. And eye AF does not work in video, or at least I could never get it to work. I also found the A1 body too small for my hands and I did not like the balance of the 200-600 which has all its weight at the front.

Were I able to afford a 600/4 and only shot stills, I would probably have gone forward with the Sony system. The AF was slightly better than the Z9 at the time (although the Z9 was still a "killer" for small erratic birds) and I enjoyed the 30FPS (but hated the slow buffer clearing, slow start-up and slow, small and crazy expensive cards).

I agree that Steve could have shown more examples in his video but I am not sure that means he did not consider and test scenarios other than those he shows.

The A1 is a great camera and I am glad that it suits your needs. Anyone on this board could have bought one but didn't. Their needs are different and the Z system better met their needs. Since you are deeply invested in Sony and "not even considering changing again any time soon" I don't understand why you join a long line of Sony shooters posting here trying to assert otherwise.



Nov 04, 2023 at 10:19 PM
aboutthelight
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video


Thanks re the video.

Eye AF does not work in video on A1.

As to why I commented it is because this video is about an A1 and Z9 and someones claim as to which is better. I have zero allegiance to camera makers. If I felt Nikon was way ahead or I really wanted lenses with built in TC's I would switch in a heartbeat. It would not cost me that much to sell and buy as I have only 1 camera and 2 lenses. So I always keep my options open and I greatly enjoy reading about and talking gear and watching videos. Right now I prefer the size and shape of the A1 and also the speed but that is not the point. It is also good to have intimate knowledge of gear when clients have those cameras and need help. To be clear I have no clue if the Z9 is currently better or not. As I mentioned I hope it is as innovation will continue to push the market forward. I am in no way claiming that the A1 is better or the Z9 is not capable of many or all of the shots in my talk. I have used it quite a few times but I have not used it with the latest updates so I have no clue. My claim is that the video is simply not proof of anything to me. (not that the A1 is better) As I have stated it is poor examples of stationary birds that are not a test of an AF system and don't prove superiority of anything to me. My gripe is with the glut of videos showing basic easy to photograph birds and then people making grand claims based on those species. Again I never claimed the A1 was better I claimed that this video proves nothing to me.



Nov 04, 2023 at 10:40 PM
sum1sgrampa
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video


I watched both videos. Yours and Steve's. I get that there's a lot of garbage out there by so-called reviewers but I think you're way, way off base lumping Steve Perry into that group. I don't know you so I have no idea what your agenda is but trashing Steve by saying his conclusions prove nothing and then putting up a link to your discussion which proves even less ?? The examples you show are photos we see here every other day by various photographers using all different types of equipment. You notice I say every OTHER day because your images are excellent and not something we see EVERY day, but sill quite often. I'm struggling to see your point. If it was simply to show that you have a connection at B&H well then, we get it.
Steve admittedly shoots a Z9 and an A1. He clearly states that any difference between the two varies depending on the circumstances and both are excellent at what they do. It seems to me his video was aimed clearly at Z9 shooters regarding updates. There's really nothing there that should cause A1 users to get all worked up. As far as I'm concerned Steve is the person I can reliably go to when I need detailed information on Nikon. So thanks for drawing my attention to his video. I learned about the subtle differences between the two subject recognition functions. And even better, I now know how to switch between animal and bird with a single button push and it clearly makes a difference. Not such a useless video after all but I guess it all depends on what you're looking for
Gary



Nov 05, 2023 at 09:52 AM
aboutthelight
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video


I am not worked up one bit by any advancements with the Z9. It is quite the opposite. I am happy for my friends who shoot the Z9 and happy that the prospect of subject recognition when combined with bird eye af makes these already great cameras even better and more precise. I have not stated otherwise so I don't see where you would draw that conclusion. I have never once stated the A1 is better nor have I made any claims that an A1 is necessary to take any of the photos in my talk. I only put the video up after a snide remark about me having the good A1 and Steve not having it. It is simply to show that I have a very good idea of what I am talking about when it comes to auto focus and what these cameras are capable of. And that there are much more difficult situations for auto focus systems than what is being portrayed.

With regards to the video I stand by what I said. Steve is an accomplished photographer, extremely well spoken and has a huge following which he has worked extremely hard for. But that does not mean that I have to agree with his findings. Nor does it mean that by disagreeing that I am trashing the Z9 which I am not or promoting the A1 which I also am not. I simply think that there are way more taxing and difficult situations for auto focus systems. As you say all different systems can produce high quality photos and I am in no way suggesting that they can't. Peak action and against varied backgrounds with small, fast and erratic birds are vital in my opinion to make a determination as to which system is better. Until there is a video showing direct comparisons with those situations then I think any other determination has little to no value. I get that people need to keep putting out content and people need views on youtube. But it is one thing to say the subject recognition has made it easier to acquire initial focus. It is an entirely different thing to stay locked on in certain situations. And those situations are the ones needed in my opinion to draw a conclusion. You of course are free to come to a different conclusion. Hope that helps clear this up.




Nov 05, 2023 at 10:43 AM
sum1sgrampa
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video


For the record, I apologize for my B&H statement. That was unnecessary and unfair.


Nov 05, 2023 at 10:55 AM
aboutthelight
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video


sum1sgrampa wrote:
For the record, I apologize for my B&H statement. That was unnecessary and unfair.


We're good. Thanks and no problem.



Nov 05, 2023 at 11:05 AM
twodees
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video


But isn't that a pretty basic dragonfly flying side to side with wings open type shot (against a clear background)?

RoamingScott wrote:
This is my go-to image when people ask about 4.1...find me a bird that is harder to shoot than a hunting dragonfly and that's WITH a teleconverter on, should be theoretically even better performance with it off.



Nov 05, 2023 at 12:30 PM
RoamingScott
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video


Post yours 🫠

twodees wrote:
But isn't that a pretty basic dragonfly flying side to side with wings open type shot (against a clear background)?





Nov 05, 2023 at 12:53 PM
George DeCamp
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video


No matter what image people post, what thoughts they have or what reviews are posted there will always be those who disagree and that's fine. Steve is a smart guy and I trust his reviews and also his premise for doing this review but not everyone thinks the same.


Nov 05, 2023 at 01:07 PM
Eric214
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Steve Perry on the Z9 with FW 4.1 - follow up video


aboutthelight wrote:
I am not worked up one bit by any advancements with the Z9. It is quite the opposite. I am happy for my friends who shoot the Z9 and happy that the prospect of subject recognition when combined with bird eye af makes these already great cameras even better and more precise. I have not stated otherwise so I don't see where you would draw that conclusion. I have never once stated the A1 is better nor have I made any claims that an A1 is necessary to take any of the photos in my talk. I only put the
...Show more

One thing about Sony is they are known for buying into specific industries, like Minolta for photography, and pushing hard to get market share and then sit back and rest on their laurels and fall back a bit. They did with TVs and other things. This is a bit evident in Sony's lack of interest in putting out firmware updates to their cameras, instead focusing on camera body after body with new features in them not going to the flagship models. Would be very frustrating to Sony user I would image.

Sony is also a company when it feels like it, to up and leave a segment/industry. Forget other reasons I am not interested in Sony such as awful menus, to small a camera for me with very small buttons and durability concerns, I just don't trust Sony long term like I do Nikon or Canon



Nov 05, 2023 at 03:37 PM
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