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Canon RF 200-800mm f6.3-9 surprise

swldstn
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Canon RF 200-800mm f6.3-9 surprise

Was surprised to see Canon announcement of their new 200-800mm f6.3 to f9 zoom. Seems like a nice idea but if correct it’s slower than the Sony 200-600/5.6-6.3 + 1.4X teleconverter. Sure it’s a few 100 to 300 grams lighter but at 600mm it’s already f/8 where without the TC the Sony is f/6.3. With the TC the Sony becomes f9 out at 840mm, forget what focal length the Sony will hit f/9. Does anyone remember? Also it’s externally zooming but I guess can be more convenient since you don’t need to dismount it to get the extra reach. What do others think? My biggest gripe is there is no 50 Mpixel stacked sensor for the Canon to be mounted on for fast frame rates of 20 fps 14bit RAW.

To me the new RF 24-105mm f/2.8 is interesting but a trade off since with the 24-70/2.8 GM II and 70-200/2.8 GM II I can achieve its equivalent with two lenses I’m typically carrying.

Nov 02, 2023 at 04:50 PM

aCuria
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Canon RF 200-800mm f6.3-9 surprise

swldstn wrote:
Was surprised to see Canon announcement of their new 200-800mm f6.3 to f9 zoom. Seems like a nice idea but if correct it’s slower than the Sony 200-600/5.6-6.3 + 1.4X teleconverter. Sure it’s a few 100 to 300 grams lighter but at 600mm it’s already f/8 where without the TC the Sony is f/6.3. With the TC the Sony becomes f9 out at 840mm, forget what focal length the Sony will hit f/9. Does anyone remember? Also it’s externally zooming but I guess can be more convenient since you don’t need to dismount it to get the extra reach. What...Show more →

Canon 200-800mm
f/6.3 - 200-268
f/7.1- 268-455
f/8- 455-637
f/9- 637-800

Sony 200-600mm
f/5.6 at 200-300
f/6.3 at 300-600

The Canon lens is consistently slower, and I find the 200-600 too slow as it is…

I wonder if a 200-600/2.8-6.3 is possible at the same weight…

Nov 02, 2023 at 09:21 PM

saaketham
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Canon RF 200-800mm f6.3-9 surprise

Canon has some excellent super teles now that nobody wants .. 800 f/11, 1200 f/22 🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️

Nov 02, 2023 at 09:48 PM

patotts
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Canon RF 200-800mm f6.3-9 surprise

This is Canon's way of competing - they make the lenses different to avoid head-to-head comp, thus making a 200-800 instead of 600, but man it is slow. Test lenses seems to have been sent to safari and other places with lots of sunlight - I'd hate to bring that f/9 to the northern hemisphere.

Oh well, at the end, the more competition, the better. We consumers win on that!

Nov 02, 2023 at 10:26 PM

docusync
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Canon RF 200-800mm f6.3-9 surprise

swldstn wrote:
To me the new RF 24-105mm f/2.8 is interesting but a trade off since with the 24-70/2.8 GM II and 70-200/2.8 GM II I can achieve its equivalent with two lenses I’m typically carrying.

What’s even more interesting - now you can cover every single mm from 24 to 300 at f/2.8 with just two lenses: the one that was just announced and the 100-300/2.8. The combo is not cheap and quite heavy though…

Nov 03, 2023 at 12:15 AM

aCuria
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Canon RF 200-800mm f6.3-9 surprise

swldstn wrote:
To me the new RF 24-105mm f/2.8 is interesting but a trade off since with the 24-70/2.8 GM II and 70-200/2.8 GM II I can achieve its equivalent with two lenses I’m typically carrying.

Given the power zoom it seems to be a video centric lens, for video you can’t really switch lenses to get a different focal length in the same take. Sony does make a 28-135/4 PZ for full frame but it’s rarely discussed by anyone here

I’m not sure if this is true of all power zooms, but the inability to zoom while engaging burst mode is a problem on at least some of the Sony power zooms. This is detrimental for sports, events and photojournalism.

Nov 03, 2023 at 12:48 AM

sismailian
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Canon RF 200-800mm f6.3-9 surprise

Man this is a pretty nice landscape and event lens. Also what's really sweet is that it's internal zooming as well along with stabilization. You could literally only have this lens in your kit and almost never need anything else unless you need wider than 24 with faster fstop. The electronically parfocal is also interesting along with minimal focus breathing.

This also begs the question if its possible to make a 20-70 F/2.8. Now wouldn't that be an interesting lens?

Might be on the heavy side!

Nov 03, 2023 at 02:56 AM

freaklikeme
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Canon RF 200-800mm f6.3-9 surprise

I think the 200-800 looks good from a specs perspective. It basically packs the same as the 200-600G but is a little lighter and a little cheaper. Plus you get to 800 without a TC and it only costs you a fraction of a stop at lower focal lengths. And, if you can live with 1120/13ish and 1600/18ish, the Canon will work with both their extenders. It doesn't make me want a lens of its type, but, if I were in that market, it would have my attention.

At work, we've got demos of the 24-105/2.8L coming when the PZ-E2 (the little motor attachment that turns it into a power zoom) is available. We use the Sony PZ 28-135/4 for remote camera operation quite a bit, and the extra stop would be handy. It'll be a pricey stop, though, with the lens retailing at $3k and another $1k for the motor.

Nov 03, 2023 at 05:35 AM

Douglas L
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Canon RF 200-800mm f6.3-9 surprise

IMHO, the 200-800 is fantastic for airshows. The light is usually pretty bright (10:00AM-4:00PM summer time) during the show time. For wildlife, it all depends on the light, I guess.

Nov 03, 2023 at 06:00 AM

Alan Parker
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Canon RF 200-800mm f6.3-9 surprise

Douglas L wrote:
IMHO, the 200-800 is fantastic for airshows. The light is usually pretty bright (10:00AM-4:00PM summer time) during the show time. For wildlife, it all depends on the light, I guess.

I feel like that's generally the approach Canon has now; new focal ranges and new aperture pairings. As a consumer it's not always a practical consideration however; birding with an f/9 seems like a bad idea but for wildlife spotting it might be great. Canon might also just see it as a product that people will get now and later supplement with a more premium bright aperture lens; a stepup if you will.
I can personally see the benefit of the 24-105/2.8, but at €3649 it's just a no-go in my opinion. Let alone the fact that it's the same size but heavier than the 70-200GMII. Same deal with the 35-150/2-2.8. For people it will be the perfect single-lens solution but personally I just wouldn't want a lens that big 24/7; and that's what you'd probably use it for to justify such an expensive lens in the first place. It's a real dilemma for the consumer.

Tl;dr: good that Canon is pushing forward, but are they going for things that people actually want and that make practical sense? Similar questions can be asked about the Canon 100-300/2.8

Nov 03, 2023 at 06:33 AM

patotts
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Canon RF 200-800mm f6.3-9 surprise

docusync wrote:
What’s even more interesting - now you can cover every single mm from 24 to 300 at f/2.8 with just two lenses: the one that was just announced and the 100-300/2.8. The combo is not cheap and quite heavy though…

If only the 24-105/2.8 would have allowed for an extender (OK, no longer f/2.8 but at least you wouldn't have to carry 2 big lenses)

Nov 03, 2023 at 07:06 AM

aCuria
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Canon RF 200-800mm f6.3-9 surprise

patotts wrote:
If only the 24-105/2.8 would have allowed for an extender (OK, no longer f/2.8 but at least you wouldn't have to carry 2 big lenses)

Adding the TC to get a 1.5kg 48-200/4 doesn’t sound very compelling to me, you my as well run a 70-200/2.8 and a 24-70 , which won’t weight much more

Nov 03, 2023 at 10:52 AM

molson
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Canon RF 200-800mm f6.3-9 surprise

Why did Canon stop at f/9 with the 200-800, instead of going all the way to 11?

It seems like these lenses have all the drawbacks of shooting with m4/3, with few of the benefits.

Nov 03, 2023 at 11:20 AM

patotts
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Canon RF 200-800mm f6.3-9 surprise

aCuria wrote:
Adding the TC to get a 1.5kg 48-200/4 doesn’t sound very compelling to me, you my as well run a 70-200/2.8 and a 24-70 , which won’t weight much more

Me neither, but if you are happy using the 24-105/2.8 for +90% of your work, having a small 1.4x extender in the pocket would be easier than carrying another lens. 200mm on a Canon R5, then punch in to APS-C mode and you'll be at 300mm, in a pinch. I just like having options :-)

Come to think of it, tele-converters don't work on most/any (?) regular zooms, do they? Sony's 24-70 or 24-105 doesn't allow for them either.

Nov 03, 2023 at 11:37 AM

flash
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Canon RF 200-800mm f6.3-9 surprise

At least the 200-800 is cheap.......

Maybe it's me but this looks like a folding 800mm that's a stop faster than the prime. If you can't afford/carry an 800 5.6 then this is the 800mm you'll buy. I would have earlier this year when I took a Canon kit to Africa. And unlike the Sony200-600 you get the whole range without removing lenses. Aperture is a wash. They're both slow. A stop isn't enough to argue over, except in pissing matches. I like the range, the weight and the packing size. Telescoping lenses are good for carry on.

However, the samples I've seen so far indicate this is an average performer at the long end. It also didn't seem as long as the 800mm prime (common with zooms, the Sony is the same) at mid distances. Canon state it's as sharp as the 100-500 with TC. That's not a ringing endorsement. The zoom throw is enormous.

Lastly a lens can't be considered in isolation. The A1 and A7R5 both beat out the R5 and R3 for wildlife shooting, for me. And I can't strap this lens on either of them. I'd be happy with a 200-600/1.4x and a 100-400 on the other body for a wildlife kit, weight restricted, if I really need the reach.

If I'm going to carry a 1.3kg standard zoom it'll be the stunning 28-70 f2 over the video centric 24-105 2.8.

Gordon

Nov 03, 2023 at 01:56 PM

aCuria
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Canon RF 200-800mm f6.3-9 surprise

flash wrote:
At least the 200-800 is cheap.......

Maybe it's me but this looks like a folding 800mm that's a stop faster than the prime. If you can't afford/carry an 800 5.6 then this is the 800mm you'll buy. I would have earlier this year when I took a Canon kit to Africa. And unlike the Sony200-600 you get the whole range without removing lenses. Aperture is a wash. They're both slow. A stop isn't enough to argue over, except in pissing matches. I like the range, the weight and the packing size. Telescoping lenses are good for carry on.

However, the samples I've...Show more →

I agree the lens cannot be considered in isolation, but even if Canon did make a 50MP R1 camera to match the A1, you want to use f/7.1 to avoid diffraction softening in order to use those megapixels properly

The 200-800 lens does make sense on a 24MP R3 where diffraction is not an issue until f/11

Following this line of thought, at 2-2.5kg the Nikon 800/6.3 makes the most sense to me, I hope Sony can make something similar (and cheaper)

Nov 04, 2023 at 12:16 AM

Newenglandrocks
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Canon RF 200-800mm f6.3-9 surprise

The 200-800 is not internally zooming. Ugh - non starter. At least Nikon's 200-600 is internally zooming. You can pair an A1 or 61MP A7R body and just crop in to get to 800mm.

The 24-104 f/2.8 looks amazing but I find it surprising that the aperture ring can only be used with their Cinema cameras. This and the fact you have to send other RF lenses into the factory to permanently declick the aperture control ring are wonky design choices IMHO.

Edited on Nov 04, 2023 at 07:53 AM · View previous versions

Nov 04, 2023 at 01:11 AM

flash
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Canon RF 200-800mm f6.3-9 surprise

aCuria wrote:
I agree the lens cannot be considered in isolation, but even if Canon did make a 50MP R1 camera to match the A1, you want to use f/7.1 to avoid diffraction softening in order to use those megapixels properly

The 200-800 lens does make sense on a 24MP R3 where diffraction is not an issue until f/11

Following this line of thought, at 2-2.5kg the Nikon 800/6.3 makes the most sense to me, I hope Sony can make something similar (and cheaper)

The difference from 7.1 to f9 in diffraction is almost nil. Not worth even a quaint consideration. I've shot the Canon R5 with 100-500 and 1.4 TC, the Sony A7R5 and A1 with 200-600 with 1.4x and the Fujifilm XH2 with 150-600. All of those combinations make very sharp prints to silly sizes. Diffraction, to me is one of the most over hyped issues with internet forums. I sell prints up to A0 and larger from very high resolution cameras (45-150MP) and have learned that diffraction isn't a hard stop and can't be taken in isolation.

Gordon

Nov 04, 2023 at 02:14 AM

aCuria
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Canon RF 200-800mm f6.3-9 surprise

flash wrote:
The difference from 7.1 to f9 in diffraction is almost nil. Not worth even a quaint consideration. I've shot the Canon R5 with 100-500 and 1.4 TC, the Sony A7R5 and A1 with 200-600 with 1.4x and the Fujifilm XH2 with 150-600. All of those combinations make very sharp prints to silly sizes. Diffraction, to me is one of the most over hyped issues with internet forums. I sell prints up to A0 and larger from very high resolution cameras (45-150MP) and have learned that diffraction isn't a hard stop and can't be taken in isolation.

Gordon

https://www.lenstip.com/598.4-Lens_review-Sony_FE_35_mm_f_1.4_GM_Image_resolution.html

https://www.lenstip.com/645.4-Lens_review-Sony_FE_50_mm_f_1.4_GM_Image_resolution.html

https://www.lenstip.com/617.4-Lens_review-Sony_FE_70-200_mm_f_2.8_GM_OSS_II_Image_resolution.html

Empirically, looking at the MTF charts, from f/5.6, f/8, f/11, f/16 to f/22 the good lenses will lose 10 lp/mm for every stop you stop down. This is what I refer to when I say “diffraction” but it certainly can be caused by some other phenomenon.

If you don’t see a difference, its possible the lens tested is not sharp enough to be diffraction limited in the first place. I have not shot test charts with my 200-600 stopped down since I usually use it wide open, but maybe it would be interesting to do.

http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF.html
See section on “Human visual acuity”

For a 8x10” print the science says at a 25cm viewing distance someone with 20-20 vision will not be able to distinguish between anything above 55 lp/mm on a FF camera. (Note that this becomes 110 lp/mm for someone with 20-10 vision)

From the lens reviews to exceed this 55 lp/mm we need to be shooting at f/9 or faster, it doesn’t seem to matter what lens you use.

Now if we want to print bigger then we would want more than that 55 lp/mm. Even at just A3+ and the same 25cm viewing distance you would want 90 lp/mm on full frame, that’s pushing what is possible on full frame.

There’s another confounding factor here which is that the lenses are tested at MTF50, meaning a full black line is going to show up at 50% grey on the raw file. I’m not sure if humans can distinguish between 55 lp/mm MTF50, and 55 lp/mm MTF90 on the 8x10” print.

Anyway I would consider f/9 perfectly fine in good light for an 8x10 print, there’s going to be some loss if you print bigger imo

Nov 04, 2023 at 04:42 AM

Daran
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Canon RF 200-800mm f6.3-9 surprise

flash wrote:
The difference from 7.1 to f9 in diffraction is almost nil. Not worth even a quaint consideration. I've shot the Canon R5 with 100-500 and 1.4 TC, the Sony A7R5 and A1 with 200-600 with 1.4x and the Fujifilm XH2 with 150-600.
Given what you are shooting with, I'm not surprised you aren't seeing much degradation at f8. None of those are fully sharp to begin with, much less with the TC. Which hides any degradation due to diffraction until the diffraction gets worse than that softness. Would you be shooting a sharper optic, you could easily see how sharpness suffers at narrow apertures.

... and have learned that diffraction isn't a hard stop and can't be taken in isolation.
That I agree with.

Nov 04, 2023 at 06:11 AM

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