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New Era for Canon L zooms

matejphoto
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · New Era for Canon L zooms

I think the announcement of the 24-105mm f/2.8 L IS USM Z is the beginning of a new era. I expect that they will make a whole trinity of these lenses.
RF 70-200 with internal zoom will be likely similar size.

Questions to ponder:
1.) Are these lenses more environmentally sealed (due to internal zoom)?
2.) Will canon include aperture rings on all L lenses or will it be limited to this Z line?
3.) Will they keep making the smaller f/2.8 L zooms? (I think so, they are a cash cow)

Here is my take on the history:

Starting with autofocus lenses.

Era 1: Single L zoom line (1989 - 2002)

Set 1:
EF 20-35mm f/2.8 L (1989)
EF 28-80mm f/2.8-4 L USM (1989)
EF 80-200mm f/2.8 L (1989)

Set 2:
EF 17-35mm f/2.8 L USM (1996)
EF 28-70mm f/2.8 L USM (1993)
EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L USM(1995)

Era 2: Both f/2.8 and f/4 L zooms (2003 - 2022)
Characteristics: Similar designs (i.e. internal/external zooming, f/2.8 lenses heavier and more expensive)

Set 1 f/2.8:
EF 24-70mm f/2.8 L USM (2002)
EF 16-35mm f/2.8 L USM (2001)
EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS USM (2001)

Set 1 f/4:
EF 17-40mm f/4L USM (2003)
EF 24-105 f/4 L IS USM (2005)
EF 70-200mm f/4 L USM (1999)
EF 70-200 f/4 L IS USM (2006)

Set 2 f/2.8:
EF 16-35 f/2.8 L II USM (2007)
EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM (2012)
EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II USM (2010)

Set 2 f/4:
EF 16-35mm f/4 L IS USM (2014)
EF 24-70mm f/4 L IS USM (2012)
EF 24-105mm f/4 IS II USM (2016)
EF 70-200mm f/4 IS II USM (2018)

Set 2B f/2.8:
EF 16-35mm f/2.8 L III USM (2016)
EF 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS III USM (2018)

Set 3 f/2.8 (RF)
RF 15-35 f/2.8 L IS USM (2019)
RF 24-70 f/2.8 L IS USM (2019)
RF 70-200 f/2.8 L IS USM (2019)

Set 3 f/4 (RF)
RF 14-35 f/4 L IS USM (2021)
RF 24-105mm f/4 L IS USM (2018)
RF 70-200mm f/4 L IS USM (2021)

Era 3: 3 lines of L zooms (2023 - )
Line 1 (most high end): f/2.8, internal zoom with powerzoom available, big and chunky, best optically

Line 2: f/2.8 (for photojournalists): external zoom, decently compact but chunky

Line 3: f/4 (for travel): external zoom, lightweight is a priority

I am ignoring the RF 28-70 f/2. If they make that into a trinity we could have 4 very distinct zoom lines.

Nov 02, 2023 at 02:52 AM

rscheffler
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · New Era for Canon L zooms

matejphoto wrote:
I think the announcement of the 24-105mm f/2.8 L IS USM Z is the beginning of a new era. I expect that they will make a whole trinity of these lenses.

Questions to ponder:
1.) Are these lenses more environmentally sealed (due to internal zoom)?
2.) Will canon include aperture rings on all L lenses or will it be limited to this Z line?
3.) Will they keep making the smaller f/2.8 L zooms? (I think so, they are a cash cow)

Era 3: 3 lines of L zooms (2023 - )
Line 1 (most high end): f/2.8, internal zoom with powerzoom available, big and chunky,...Show more →

1) Internal zoom does have the advantage of not having an exposed section that is pulled back into the lens's body, that if it becomes wet during use in rain, etc., potentially pulls some water into the lens. I suspect even with a gasket to prevent that, that it won't be 100% effective.

2) I think the aperture ring will be Z only. I can see the appeal for video use, yet it seems a bit bizarre and limiting that most cameras older than the 24-105/2.8's release date apparently won't be able to use the aperture ring. Maybe there will be a firmware update for some. From a stills perspective, at least for me, I doubt I would use the aperture ring given years/decades of ingrained habit using a dial on the camera. Given that all higher end RF lenses have a control ring, aperture control can already be assigned to that.

3) Yes, I believe there is still a strong reason to make more compact and lighter extending design zooms. Consider the RF 70-200/2.8 is about 50cm (2") and almost 300g (2/3lb) lighter than the 24-105/2.8.

Will there be a longer Z lens in the future? Given the development efforts around the 24-105/2.8, I would expect so. But a 70-200 design feels like it would have too much overlap. But if Canon are smart enough, they will make it as close to the same size, weight and balance as the 24-105 so that the two can quickly be interchanged for rigged up cameras and gimbal use. IMO this appears to be a pain-point with existing stills-centric DSLR/mirrorless designs when shooting video. It would also be a very logical argument for to justify Canon releasing a 70-200/2.8-like internal zoom design and keep the current extending design in the lineup.

On the f/4 front I would like to see a more compact alternative to the 24-105/4 that better complements the RF 70-200/4, both in size/weight and less focal length overlap. For example, a compact 24-70/4, but even better would be a 20-70/4. If 24-70/4, I'd like to see a 20/2.8 like the 16/2.8.

I think there was rumor of an f/2 UWA zoom, but other than astro (if correctly optimized), I have a difficult time figuring out a use for such a lens. Sure, f/2 is cool, but practical? As I've requested/advocated for a long time, IMO it would make more sense to release a 70-135/2 to complement the 28-70 as a dual camera/lens event combo that would pretty much eliminate the need for a bag full of fast primes. The 28-70 has already done this for me in the range it covers.

For me personally, I'm curious about the 24-105/2.8 in part because when working with clients, there is no way to avoid doing some video work. While I love the 28-70, it has me wondering about how flexible it will be moving forward with hybrid work. And admittedly, this was in the back of my mind when I bought it, but I did not like any of the 24-xx/xxx options available at the time. Given the very similar price points, weight, etc., were I to make the purchase now with a higher ratio of video use, the convenience of the 24-105/2.8 would likely win.

Nov 02, 2023 at 08:18 AM

Pixelpuffin
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · New Era for Canon L zooms

Maybe I’m alone in saying this, but the whole R and RF-L transition has had a completely negative effect on me. It’s actually put me off.
DSLRs are fast heading the same place as film users, soon dslr owners will have their own section on forums (somewhere near the bottom of the forum home page) whilst the wannabe lookatme mirrorless brigade dominates… each aspiring to own the latest greatest, forums have become nothing more than a exceedingly powerful marketing tool to un-subconsciously make us question our needs without the pressure of a salesman ….very very clever.
The irony I find so funny is the sheer size of these new RF L lenses…they dwarf and make a mockery of the reason why we were directed towards mirrorless in the first instance, smaller lighter bodies.

It’s too funny.

Nov 02, 2023 at 09:05 AM

rscheffler
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · New Era for Canon L zooms

If DSLR cameras and lenses still work for your requirements, then what's the problem? The downside I see is eventual lack of repair/service support for older equipment. But this was also true for earlier generation EF lenses replaced by second and third generation models, and also older EOS DSLRs.

The reality of our consumeristic society is there's no sitting still. There will always be something new and eventually backwards compatibility will be dropped so that manufacturers can sell more new products.

You can look at mirrorless has glass half empty or half full. You choose. From my point of view, mirrorless has introduced real improvements, particularly in the area of AF, subject detection and tracking capabilities. Sure, it's nice to have somewhat smaller, lighter cameras, but that was never (for me) a high priority. The average human hand is a certain size and if you make a camera too small, it will be uncomfortable for the average person to handle. I'd rather 'right sized' cameras, which IMO the R5, R6 are. I also appreciate that Canon is releasing some rather unusual lens designs. I love the image quality of the 28-70/2, the compactness of both 70-200s, the tiny 16/2.8 despite its need for heavy software-based distortion correction, the 28/2.8 pancake (I thought you were excited about this one?), the 100-300/2.8...

As someone using this gear professionally, the new 24-105/2.8 makes a lot of sense because hybrid stills/video work is becoming more and more the norm, as much as I'd prefer to do stills only. And as good as the EF and RF lenses are for stills, many are not well designed to also do video nicely.

This is the reality of the market that Canon is addressing. While us 'old timers' on these text-based forums might be more stills-centric, video is a capability that cannot be ignored when addressing the current mainstream market conditions. And that video optimization is going to come with certain feature tradeoffs for stills photographers. IMO there is a broad middle ground to accommodate both and it appears Canon is beginning to take this more seriously outside their cine line.

Nov 02, 2023 at 11:51 AM

Pixelpuffin
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · New Era for Canon L zooms

rscheffler wrote:
If DSLR cameras and lenses still work for your requirements, then what's the problem? The downside I see is eventual lack of repair/service support for older equipment. But this was also true for earlier generation EF lenses replaced by second and third generation models, and also older EOS DSLRs.

The reality of our consumeristic society is there's no sitting still. There will always be something new and eventually backwards compatibility will be dropped so that manufacturers can sell more new products.

You can look at mirrorless has glass half empty or half full. You choose. From my point of view,...Show more →

Excellent reply and I fully take on board your views. 👍🏻
But I stand by my views on forums, they are mostly marketing tools these days, their influence can neither be denied nor exaggerated. No doubt within a few years AI bots will target members, steering them un-subconsciously towards purchases. The capitalist machine must succeed regardless of the cost to either the planet or peoples finances.

Edited on Nov 02, 2023 at 01:27 PM · View previous versions

Nov 02, 2023 at 01:16 PM

jedibrain
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · New Era for Canon L zooms

Pixelpuffin wrote:
Maybe I’m alone in saying this, but the whole R and RF-L transition has had a completely negative effect on me. It’s actually put me off.
DSLRs are fast heading the same place as film users, soon dslr owners will have their own section on forums (somewhere near the bottom of the forum home page) whilst the wannabe lookatme mirrorless brigade dominates… each aspiring to own the latest greatest, forums have become nothing more than a exceedingly powerful marketing tool to un-subconsciously make us question our needs without the pressure of a salesman ….very very clever.
The irony I find so...Show more →

You have to be honest with yourself here. The gear wars are no worse now than they were during the DSLR days. Now its mirrorless vs. DSLR, or this feature vs. that feature, or this design choice vs. that one. Before mirrorless it was all still there. BSI vs. FSI. Which sensor tech could pull shadows up a ridiculous amount of stops? Who had more cross type AF sensors? What features did one mfg criminally leave off of the next iteration of their body? Where is the mkIV, I've had the mkIII for X years already? The other brand just came out with their new thing, I have no choice but to switch because my current brand has forsaken me.

Nothing has changed. Its just the same discussions on a new technology. And with more new stuff hitting the market more regularly since the product lines are newer, the volume is just a little higher right now.

Brian

Nov 02, 2023 at 01:27 PM

Pixelpuffin
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · New Era for Canon L zooms

jedibrain wrote:
You have to be honest with yourself here. The gear wars are no worse now than they were during the DSLR days. Now its mirrorless vs. DSLR, or this feature vs. that feature, or this design choice vs. that one. Before mirrorless it was all still there. BSI vs. FSI. Which sensor tech could pull shadows up a ridiculous amount of stops? Who had more cross type AF sensors? What features did one mfg criminally leave off of the next iteration of their body? Where is the mkIV, I've had the mkIII for X years already? The other brand just...Show more →

Again, you make some very valid points which I take on board.
What now scares me, “scares” is actually the right word, is the speed, influence and power forums have. We can all remember photo mags, some were weekly, some monthly. Each gave you time to digest. The internet forums is lightening fast, global and feedback is near damn instant as this conversation proves. We are now able to egg each other on, watch influencers online, compare prices, buy with credit….all done and completed in a matter of seconds !!
Now to me, that’s terrifying.
As someone who has pretty much avoided spending anything this year, my senses are off the scale. However the more I’m offered, pressured etc etc the more I’m digging my heels in and watching in absolute disbelief as others (like lemmings) follow the herd.
A year ago I was like most, looking for the next “fix” caught myself and decided last new year to not spend a penny during 2023. Of course I have spent money, but a fraction of what I normally burn through. I’ve learnt so much this year about ads, influencers, offers, online forums . There is little wonder the debt in the western world is where it is, we just cannot seem to help ourselves anymore, we seem to have been completely brainwashed into a cycle of non stop spending.

It’s terrifying to see and watch it unfolding before my eyes.

Sorry to derail the thread.

Nov 02, 2023 at 01:55 PM

pokemeng
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · New Era for Canon L zooms

Of course the internet has been commoditized. It was inevitable, but painful. It was terrible to watch all the old bastions that cultivated wonderful communities slowly languish.

Are the lemmings a new phenomenon? I admit that I am only moderately old

but I suspect that the gear chasers were always about. The internet has definitely allowed the gear mentality to leak out of the social groups that sit at the bleeding edge all the time. I suspect though that there are still many people that do not fall into this category, whether out of necessity due to resource constraints or through principle.

One thing the internet has done is enable the loudest, edgiest takes to be amplified. I think that the crowds of people that think about value per dollar and practical or reasonable limits tend to not garner as much attention. There is still some semblance of sanity out there though. It just needs some more searching to find. At least, that is the hope i hold onto.

Nov 02, 2023 at 02:42 PM

rscheffler
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · New Era for Canon L zooms

Pixelpuffin wrote:
I stand by my views on forums, they are mostly marketing tools these days, their influence can neither be denied nor exaggerated. No doubt within a few years AI bots will target members, steering them un-subconsciously towards purchases. The capitalist machine must succeed regardless of the cost to either the planet or peoples finances.

These forums are not where that's going to happen. We here are the vestiges of a bygone internet era.

In any case, and as with any major purchasing decision, do your research and pull info from a range of sources. If the AI bots will let you.

Nov 02, 2023 at 05:29 PM

Bacalhau
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · New Era for Canon L zooms

Pixelpuffin wrote:
Maybe I’m alone in saying this, but the whole R and RF-L transition has had a completely negative effect on me. It’s actually put me off.
(...)
The irony I find so funny is the sheer size of these new RF L lenses…they dwarf and make a mockery of the reason why we were directed towards mirrorless in the first instance, smaller lighter bodies.

It’s too funny.
even the m43 system has their fast lenses way too large for the camera size - maybe equivalent I would say to FF
Leica otoh, has indeed small lenses - with big prices, but alas it's RF and manual focus.....and oh, well, would be a log conversation.
ML has advantages for sure - but still cannot bend the laws of physics. It's proven that the new cameras and lenses have been indeed a bit smaller and lighter, but if one is changing systems thinking only in weight savings, it won't go too far or better said light in the end

Nov 02, 2023 at 06:59 PM

Ferrophot
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · New Era for Canon L zooms

I'm sorry, I'm an old fart getting on for 80 but I'm loving this modern era. I used to buy photo mags, about the equivalent of $240 a year, now I get that all for free whenever I log on. I'm loving the R6 I have, no more trying to tune out back or front focus. I kept my loved 6D, but it gets little use these days. As for lenses what about this new 200-800? The world moves on, you can embrace it and enjoy it but if that's not your cup of tea just keep the old DSLRs, they still work just the same as they always did. I don't have any RF lenses, but one day when I know I will get enjoyment from it I will buy an RF lense. Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything, still up to the consumer to make their own decisions.

Nov 02, 2023 at 07:18 PM

Zenon Char
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · New Era for Canon L zooms

Me too. I love the modern era. We will never be able to stop process. The film owners did survive the transition and adapted. Only one who did not survive was Kodak. I never got on any online forums until my first DLSR in 2005. Forums are so full of information. I can understand how DLSR owners feel. I wish I could have been on the 1DX and R3 forums. It's fun to get a new lens or camera, talk about it and post images of your new toy in the dedicated forums. Part of the hobby and I could not do that either with the gear I wanted.

I miss DLSR's about as much as I miss film and I spent many years with it. Read all of Ansel's books, had a 4x5 field camera and a dark room. ML. No "MFA". Can I repeat. No "MFA". Amazing AF. All types of custom mapping. I picked an R which had terrible fps and blackout but I had so much fun with it my 7D2 never came out of the bag for almost a year.

When the R5 was announced I decided to get on the R train and sold all my EF gear. I did not have many of the big expensive EF primes except one so it was easier for me. I also had an EF 24-70 2.8 II and the EF 70-200 2.8 II so I had my share of more expensive lenses. I do not regret that move at all but I had to sell that prime to do it.

Nov 03, 2023 at 12:21 AM

melcat
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · New Era for Canon L zooms

matejphoto wrote:
Are these lenses more environmentally sealed (due to internal zoom)?

I don’t know, but I can tell you that the extending EF lenses I have are already well-enough sealed to use in poor weather. If some other lens I don’t own is even more sealed, I don’t care.

Will canon include aperture rings on all L lenses or will it be limited to this Z line? ... Will they keep making the smaller f/2.8 L zooms?

That they called them “Z” and not just “L” suggests the lines will continue in parallel and separate. The risk for professionals relying on one type of lens is that at some point Canon sees such low volumes in one line relative to the other that they put no more effort into development for it, rather like the EF 180mm macro continued in production with no modern features. I wouldn’t expect them to discontinue them outright.

Personally, I hate aperture rings. Apart from the operational problems with them, they just seem old-fashioned and remind me of the nicotine-stinky old used gear I started with in the 1980s.

Nov 03, 2023 at 02:33 AM

Imagemaster
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · New Era for Canon L zooms

Pixelpuffin wrote:
Again, you make some very valid points which I take on board.
What now scares me, “scares” is actually the right word, is the speed, influence and power forums have. We can all remember photo mags, some were weekly, some monthly. Each gave you time to digest. The internet forums is lightening fast, global and feedback is near damn instant as this conversation proves. We are now able to egg each other on, watch influencers online, compare prices, buy with credit….all done and completed in a matter of seconds !!
Now to me, that’s terrifying.
As someone who has pretty much avoided spending...Show more →

My, my what a terrifying world we live in all because of these nasty, brainwashing forums.

. Get a life.

For nearly 20 years I have been brainwashed by visiting this site. I had better seek psychiatric counselling.

It is such a tragedy that so many of us bought mirrorless cameras because they can do some things that DSLR's can't, or just because we want to.

Nov 03, 2023 at 02:36 AM

Rivermist
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · New Era for Canon L zooms

Pixelpuffin wrote:
Maybe I’m alone in saying this, but the whole R and RF-L transition has had a completely negative effect on me. It’s actually put me off.
DSLRs are fast heading the same place as film users, soon dslr owners will have their own section on forums (somewhere near the bottom of the forum home page) whilst the wannabe lookatme mirrorless brigade dominates… each aspiring to own the latest greatest, forums have become nothing more than a exceedingly powerful marketing tool to un-subconsciously make us question our needs without the pressure of a salesman ….very very clever.
The irony I find so...Show more →

I think you may have missed some of the reasons DSLRs are trasnstioning out. Sure minor weight gains are nice, but that was hardly the point. Mirrorless brings (almost) full frame autofocus, no more lens calibrations, useable lenses with max apertures of f:11 or less, a new mount with additional pins and power (OK, this could have been done while sticking to DSLR), interesting new wide angle designs using a mount closer to the sensor, better still / video versatility, real-time computational optical corrections, histograms and other information in the viewfinder while shooting, etc... As for compactness, not every lens design can be shrunk, but compare the EF 11-24 to the RF10-20 IS, the 14-35 L to the EF 16-35 f:4, not to mention the 600 and 800 fixed aperture lenses, or the 16mm.

Edited on Nov 03, 2023 at 09:10 AM · View previous versions

Nov 03, 2023 at 04:54 AM

jcolwell
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · New Era for Canon L zooms

Another factor is that, with fewer moving parts, mirrorless should have higher mechanical reliablility.

The EF and RF mounts have the same 54mm diameter.

Nov 03, 2023 at 06:48 AM

exdeejjjaaaa
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · New Era for Canon L zooms

Rivermist wrote:
no more lens calibrations

and focus shift on RF100/2.8 Macro can't be corrected as a result - neither Canon provides an option for a user to force lens for a certain set of conditions ( selectable by a user ) to focus stopped down to a taking aperture which will be another way to address focus shift

Nov 03, 2023 at 07:09 AM

exdeejjjaaaa
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · New Era for Canon L zooms

Rivermist wrote:
IBIS

IBIS was introduced on dSLRs ... not by Canon of course

Nov 03, 2023 at 07:10 AM

Zenon Char
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · New Era for Canon L zooms

jcolwell wrote:
Another factor is that, with fewer moving parts, mirrorless should have higher mechanical reliablility.

The EF and RF mounts have the same 54mm diameter.

That is the nature of the mirror assembly. Even if you get MFA right on there is always a slight variation between frames. DSLR bodies offer long and short focal length MFA options but in the real world in the middle of the lens focal length is an average. With an ML it focuses on sensor so it is actual and real time.

Nov 03, 2023 at 07:12 AM

Zenon Char
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · New Era for Canon L zooms

Rivermist wrote:
I think you may have missed some of the reasons DSLRs are trasnstioning out. Sure minor weight gains are nice, but that was hardly the point. Mirrorless brings (almost) full frame autofocus, no more lens calibrations, useable lenses with max apertures of f:11 or less, a new wider mount with additional pins and power (OK, this could have been done while sticking to DSLR), interesting new wide angle designs using a mount closer to the sensor, better still / video versatility, IBIS, real-time computational optical corrections, histograms and other information in the viewfinder while shooting, etc... As for compactness, not...Show more →

It's an add but still good info IMO. Canon didn't add those extra 4 pins for show and I trust they are doing something for me.

Nov 03, 2023 at 07:17 AM

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