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Official: Leica M11-P announced

  
 
flash
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p.5 #1 · p.5 #1 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


airfrogusmc wrote:
Flash it's carlos. He's been a lot of differnt names and Fred keeps banning him.


I know. I'm just feeling a bit like having some fun today.... Might spend some time talking to a guy who'll get me on the first page of Google, later...

Gordon



Oct 30, 2023 at 10:18 PM
flash
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p.5 #2 · p.5 #2 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


Caranis wrote:
@flash@
I understand it is a thumb grip. If you want one then buy a thumb grip. You like it. I hate it.

You want to force on everyone what you like in all digital Ms. Isnt that wonderful. 😀


Says the guy who wants to remove the rear wheel and half the rest of the camera....

And yes. Because I'm right, again.

Gordon



Oct 30, 2023 at 10:19 PM
airfrogusmc
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p.5 #3 · p.5 #3 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


flash looks like he's been banned again.


Oct 31, 2023 at 07:12 AM
airfrogusmc
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p.5 #4 · p.5 #4 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


flash wrote:
I know. I'm just feeling a bit like having some fun today.... Might spend some time talking to a guy who'll get me on the first page of Google, later...

Gordon


Ha ha....



Oct 31, 2023 at 07:12 AM
Elijah
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p.5 #5 · p.5 #5 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


When I win a lottery, I won't tell anyone... But there will be signs... M11-P




Oct 31, 2023 at 06:03 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.5 #6 · p.5 #6 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


I was afraid of this!

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/383888-m11-p-freezes-too/



Nov 04, 2023 at 10:02 AM
Stephen G
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p.5 #7 · p.5 #7 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


Fred Miranda wrote:
I was afraid of this!

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/383888-m11-p-freezes-too/


Exactly.
It seems 1) M11-P freezes just like M11, and 2) M11 owners have reported freezes under the new FW, and worst yet 2b) some M11 owners who never had freezes have experienced some since updating..

Would be interesting to pin down the set of features people who claim to never have a freeze are using.
Maybe its something like never activate fotos/wifi/bt, never use a 3rd party/uncoded lens, possibly avoidance of auto-ISO, auto-exposure, or other things that require some processing power & could be deadlocking .. who knows.



Nov 04, 2023 at 12:53 PM
John Black
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p.5 #8 · p.5 #8 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


I make no apologies for Leica, nor do I wish bugs & gremlins on anyone. So with that said, I wouldn't paint the M11 lock-ups with such a broad brush. I have 1000's & 1000's of clicks on my M11 and M11-M with no lock-ups. My M11 is almost 2 years old (purchased in March 2022), so there is nothing new "or more recent" about it.

I use Sandisk Extreme Pro UHS-II 32 GB cards (300 MB/sec) and only use FOTOS in low power mode for the GPS function. The M11 batteries get swapped out when charge gets to the 25-40% range.

Almost every shot is LV / EVF. We had +115 F temps this past summer, and I had the cameras on a tripods baking in the sun. It was out in the rain & wind (~45 F) about a week ago taking 5 minute long exposures and lengthy bracketed shots (wanted to test the new firmware). Anyways, in my experience the M11 family has proven very stable. And my M10-P / R / M's were also very stable and shot similar conditions, though the summers max'd around 105. This past summer was surreal...

One tip I can offer - format the SD cards with a low level format in SD Formatter before each outing. This is an old habit from the M8 / M9 days and I I still do it religiously. And FWIW, don't use UHS-II cards in the M10 family, stick with UHS-I. That was the cure for a friend who was having lock-ups with his M10-M several years ago.

As for the M11-P, that's a no-go for me. The credential system added a new chip somewhere in the Leica M's architecture, and this is the first Leica M to get the tech... so... no... I'm not going to be an early adopter for that ride. Nope.



Nov 04, 2023 at 04:40 PM
1bwana1
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p.5 #9 · p.5 #9 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


Stephen G wrote:
Exactly.
It seems 1) M11-P freezes just like M11, and 2) M11 owners have reported freezes under the new FW, and worst yet 2b) some M11 owners who never had freezes have experienced some since updating..

Would be interesting to pin down the set of features people who claim to never have a freeze are using.
Maybe its something like never activate fotos/wifi/bt, never use a 3rd party/uncoded lens, possibly avoidance of auto-ISO, auto-exposure, or other things that require some processing power & could be deadlocking .. who knows.


I have now had my M11 for 11 Months. I carry and shoot it almost every day. I have shot thousands of frames with it. I have never had a lockup in that entire time. I have really no explanation for why I am not experiencing lockups that others are. I don't think there is anything special that I am doing with mine. I will say that most of the time I shoot a very simple setup.

Aperture is set on the lens.

Shutter speed is set on the dial manually

ISO is either set manually or on Auto through the M settings.

I shoot a variety of Drive modes.

I shoot mostly highlight protected metering but sometimes matric, or spot.

I use Exposure compensation frequently. (With my setup it really only changes ISO because A and SS are set on the dials).

I a/most always shoot through the Range Finder, but when I have shot with the LCD.EVF I have had no issues.

I have shot with strobes occasionally. No issues.

I have auto review set to off, but I do chimp and even delete with the rear screen.

I primarily shoot on the SD Card alone, but have used internal memory a few times when I forgot the SD card in the computer. The only SD card I have used is a Sony G 64 GB USH II. I format only in the camera. I load the images into my computer either by wire or card. I empty the card after every use mostly by Delete All, but do a full Format every couple of weeks.

I shoot only Full Size DNG. No jpg backup. I have done DNG also to internal memory on some important shoots to be carefull. Still, no issues. Never shot a jpg on my M11.

I never shoot in one of the reduced resolution modes, or any of the crop modes. I paid for the resolution and I want it.

My top button is set to Drive Mode.

My Rear Wheel to Exposure Compensation

My Rear Wheel Click is set to Meter Mode.

Any other adjustments are done mostly through the Quick Menu.

I change those settings frequently.

I don't think my battery has never gotten below 30%.

I shoot a variety of Leica, and Voigtlander M lenses. If they didn't ship 6 bit encoded, I add it. I change lenses frequently, but my most used is my Leica Summilux f/1.4 ASPH.

I have a 5 minute sleep mode set to preserve battery. So I do go from active to sleep to active many times during a day of shooting

I have used the Fotos app with some frequency. Mostly as a remote trigger or as a composition tool when the camera is in an awkward position on a tripod..

What else do we need to know about setup?

Maybe we should do little study to see if we can identify a pattern leading to lockups. I wonder if we could reverse engineer the Profile File. Since we can export that file to the card, we could then save the active profile settings to a card whenever we had a lockup. We could then auto import them into a database a look for patterns. It might be an interesting and useful project.

I know people who are plagued by these lock ups, and others like me who have never or very infrequently had one.




Nov 04, 2023 at 06:27 PM
tzhang4284
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p.5 #10 · p.5 #10 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


I had an extremely buggy Leica Q3 that ultimately died and had to be sent back to Leica. They said it was a hardware issue.

However, the Leica M11 I purchased as a replacement is solid as a rock so far without any issues. My takeaway is to wait and never buy early production run Leica cameras when they first come out as you never know what hidden issues are there until they resolve it. Seems like the P series are different enough where the hardware risk is still there.



Nov 04, 2023 at 06:42 PM
 


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highdesertmesa
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p.5 #11 · p.5 #11 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


Fred Miranda wrote:
I was afraid of this!

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/383888-m11-p-freezes-too/


---------------------------------------------

Stephen G wrote:
Exactly.
It seems 1) M11-P freezes just like M11, and 2) M11 owners have reported freezes under the new FW, and worst yet 2b) some M11 owners who never had freezes have experienced some since updating..

Would be interesting to pin down the set of features people who claim to never have a freeze are using.
Maybe its something like never activate fotos/wifi/bt, never use a 3rd party/uncoded lens, possibly avoidance of auto-ISO, auto-exposure, or other things that require some processing power & could be deadlocking .. who knows.


This is just a freeze when connected to the FOTOS app and it's specific to 2.0.1 firmware. It'll be fixed in the next update. This is NOT the freezing at startup issue many of us had with the M11. Please do not trivialize the horrors many of us M11 owners endured by comparing it to this person's issue



Nov 04, 2023 at 07:19 PM
Michael_L
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p.5 #12 · p.5 #12 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


Still! It just seems to be excuses for this camera. It doesn't do this or fails when doing that. Let's reverse engineer to try and find the problem. Bottom line is at $9000 USD it seems to be a complete waste of money if you're looking for a dependable camera. And if you're on assignment I consider this to be important. I'm really sad in that I was wanting to jump into the Leica brand and try it. Pretty disappointed in a brand that is supposed to be the "legend". Maybe 20 years ago. Everyone keeps saying "maybe in the next update". Well, maybe 10 years from now I'll consider it again


Nov 05, 2023 at 12:32 AM
highdesertmesa
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p.5 #13 · p.5 #13 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


Michael_L wrote:
Still! It just seems to be excuses for this camera. It doesn't do this or fails when doing that. Let's reverse engineer to try and find the problem. Bottom line is at $9000 USD it seems to be a complete waste of money if you're looking for a dependable camera. And if you're on assignment I consider this to be important. I'm really sad in that I was wanting to jump into the Leica brand and try it. Pretty disappointed in a brand that is supposed to be the "legend". Maybe 20 years ago. Everyone keeps saying "maybe in the
...Show more

Many M11s had a freeze on startup issue that was never fixed in firmware unless it has been fixed in 2.0.1. I haven't read of any freezes on startup with the M11 under 2.0.1 yet, so perhaps that issue has been finally addressed for those that had it.

After several copies of the M11 since its release, all of which had the freeze on startup issue, I finally ended up with a very late production M11 that had a different internal component Leica wouldn't specify what. That one NEVER froze not once. My M11M has NEVER frozen not once, and it also shares the same unnamed internal hardware update.

I think the issues that may have been hardware related have been addressed.

2.0.1 that just came out and is pre-installed on the M11-P introduced a bug for some people that causes a freeze with the app. I never use apps because they all are terrible. Leica's app is one of the better ones, but still. No thanks.

I have had zero freezes with my M11M under 2.0.1. I no longer have the M11 to comment on that under 2.0.1.



Nov 05, 2023 at 09:26 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.5 #14 · p.5 #14 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


Michael_L wrote:
Still! It just seems to be excuses for this camera. It doesn't do this or fails when doing that. Let's reverse engineer to try and find the problem. Bottom line is at $9000 USD it seems to be a complete waste of money if you're looking for a dependable camera. And if you're on assignment I consider this to be important. I'm really sad in that I was wanting to jump into the Leica brand and try it. Pretty disappointed in a brand that is supposed to be the "legend". Maybe 20 years ago. Everyone keeps saying "maybe in the
...Show more

If you encounter a problem with your Leica M11, some folks might claim their M11 is perfect. While that's great for them, it doesn't negate the fact that it can still be a problem for others who own the same camera. Since I don't own an M11, I'm not well informed about the latest firmware fixes and newer models. however, I'm closely monitoring the situation, and it seems that the M11 has become more stable compared to its initial launch.

Hopefully whenever the M11-D comes out, it will be free of bugs.



Nov 05, 2023 at 10:00 AM
tzhang4284
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p.5 #15 · p.5 #15 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


highdesertmesa wrote:
Many M11s had a freeze on startup issue that was never fixed in firmware unless it has been fixed in 2.0.1. I haven't read of any freezes on startup with the M11 under 2.0.1 yet, so perhaps that issue has been finally addressed for those that had it.

After several copies of the M11 since its release, all of which had the freeze on startup issue, I finally ended up with a very late production M11 that had a different internal component Leica wouldn't specify what. That one NEVER froze not once. My M11M has NEVER frozen not once, and
...Show more

My M11 copy purchased earlier this summer had a slightly different firmware version than what was officially released - 1.6.2 or something like that when 1.6.1 was the main line version. Maybe there were some minor fixes they incorporated.

I definitely paid a bit of a premium over buying a used M11 but if the freeze issues in older models are that prevalent, it's worth it for the warranty coverage and having one that works.



Nov 05, 2023 at 12:53 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.5 #16 · p.5 #16 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


tzhang4284 wrote:
My M11 copy purchased earlier this summer had a slightly different firmware version than what was officially released - 1.6.2 or something like that when 1.6.1 was the main line version. Maybe there were some minor fixes they incorporated.

I definitely paid a bit of a premium over buying a used M11 but if the freeze issues in older models are that prevalent, it's worth it for the warranty coverage and having one that works.


The new hardware component required 1.6.2, so if yours came pre-installed with that version, you had the updated hardware component whatever that was. Leica said the new component wasn't performance related, but to me that does not exclude something stability related.



Nov 05, 2023 at 01:34 PM
flash
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p.5 #17 · p.5 #17 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


Fred Miranda wrote:
If you encounter a problem with your Leica M11, some folks might claim their M11 is perfect. While that's great for them, it doesn't negate the fact that it can still be a problem for others who own the same camera. Since I don't own an M11, I'm not well informed about the latest firmware fixes and newer models. however, I'm closely monitoring the situation, and it seems that the M11 has become more stable compared to its initial launch.

Hopefully whenever the M11-D comes out, it will be free of bugs.


When an M11D comes out you be 2nd in line behind me!!

I've had no issues with my M11 either. I had the shutter delay bug but just switched my playback mode from none to Half press and all was good. Only one freeze related to too many button presses, I think, while I worked out the previous bug. My camera was picked up on release day. My M11M is also fine.

Having said that I'm absolutely sure some M11's have had a real issue. And I don't know that Leica have it completely sorted. Personally, I'm more inclined to think a hardware issue otherwise why have Steve and I had zero problems with our cameras. It sucks for those people.

The M11-P bug seems related to Fotos and I think we'll need to see over the next month or so what's going on there.

It wouldn't stop me getting an M11 but I'd want a robust return policy. If you get a good one, which I believe is more likely, then you're golden.

Gordon




Nov 05, 2023 at 02:28 PM
1bwana1
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p.5 #18 · p.5 #18 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


Just to be sure I just did about a 10 minute test with my M11 2.01 version firmware using the Leica Fotos App.

I tried about every function and setting I could. Including shooting remote from the App, and shooting Tethered from the camera to the App. I shot while downloading jpg previews all the way through to full DNG downloads.

Everything went smooth and fast. Not one issue with either the camera or the app.

So, it looks to me that if there is a problem with the App being compatible it is not affecting the standard M11. Must be limited to the M11-P. I have not tested with a M11-M.

I still find the Leica Fotos App to be the best of its type I have ever experienced so far. I wish my A1 had an app this good and simple.



Nov 05, 2023 at 04:41 PM
Stephen G
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p.5 #19 · p.5 #19 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


It's not surprising I suppose that the M11 which is radically different sensor/shutter mechanism and behaving more like a mirrorless camera, with as I understand it, a different CPU design type, could have an issue like this.

M8/M9 (Kodak sensors) we had sensor glass/coating issues between the IR on the M8 & deterioration on the M9. M240/M10 (TowerJazz / CMOSIS sensors) were relatively trouble free to my recollection of general forum vibe.
M11 is also first Sony sensor M I believe?

It's interesting if Leica did a silent hardware component update that does resolve the freezes.
It makes the used market for these camera very difficult, how do you ever know which component version you are buying? Will Leica swap component/board/body for anyone with the original if sent in for warranty (or out of warranty) service?

If we eventually learn conclusively that the M11 got a new component and the M11-P launched with that component.. that would be a big used market differentiation between M11 & M11-P as you could safely buy an M11-P without concern.



Nov 05, 2023 at 05:07 PM
1bwana1
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p.5 #20 · p.5 #20 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


Stephen G wrote:
It's not surprising I suppose that the M11 which is radically different sensor/shutter mechanism and behaving more like a mirrorless camera, with as I understand it, a different CPU design type, could have an issue like this.

M8/M9 (Kodak sensors) we had sensor glass/coating issues between the IR on the M8 & deterioration on the M9. M240/M10 (TowerJazz / CMOSIS sensors) were relatively trouble free to my recollection of general forum vibe.
M11 is also first Sony sensor M I believe?

It's interesting if Leica did a silent hardware component update that does resolve the freezes.
It makes the used market for these
...Show more

In my opinion if the early M11 cameras shipped with a hardware issue that cannot be fixed in firmware, Leica owes those buyers a hardware fix. Whether this takes the form a new camera, or a hardware swap in the existing camera, it seems that U.S. product suitability laws support such a remediation.

Consumers will have to organise to force a solution. But the legal discovery process will be able to expose the umbers of units involved, and Leica's internal views of cause and remedy.

I am a Leica enthusiast, and am not personally having issues at this time. However, I feel that we must hold them responsible for their products and processes to get the quality and service we expect from them.



Nov 05, 2023 at 05:20 PM
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