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Official: Leica M11-P announced

  
 
Nick Dakota
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


That's a steep price...10k with tax. Even people that could afford it will pause at that price. The high-priced new gear is what keeps the older models value high. It becomes so unobtainable that a $4500 M10P is a bargain.


Oct 26, 2023 at 07:18 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


I prefer to wait for the Safari, Reporter, or Black Paint variants over the regular P.


Oct 26, 2023 at 07:56 PM
rscheffler
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


johnvanr wrote:
The rest leaves me cold and somewhat curious what Leica is going to do to keep the M line ‘fresh’ while also keeping it classic.

rscheffler wrote:
Some of it will depend on their sensor partner(s).

Biggest worthwhile update IMO would be improving e-shutter to reduce/eliminate significant concern about rolling shutter effects.

While it would be a resolution step backwards, using a variant of the stacked sensor in the Z8/Z9 in a new model would be worthy. Stacked sensor will eventually happen, but maybe still a couple cycles. Next one maybe will have better rolling shutter before we see stacked. Being able to eliminate the need for mechanical shutter for the majority of use cases would also improve the current 'kludge' of live view metering requiring extra
...Show more
johnvanr wrote:
All possible, but how much will any of it improve most of the photography done with an M?

This is not just true for Leica, of course. We have long reached a plateau for 95% of photography, if not 99%. But Leica M has the extra challenge of sticking with a gestalt that’s 80 or so years old.


Leica perhaps has a luxury other brands don't quite have - that a sizable portion of their customer base is less concerned about chasing specs and getting the most cutting edge features possible for the dollar. Some might buy the P version simply because it looks more stealthy without the big red dot.

The challenge of sticking with the M design is what makes the M what it is. And Leica fully understands this. It's impressive what they've been able to do with those restrictions/limitations since the M8 when they said full frame might never be possible (though I suspect they knew it would be, but needed to sell all those M8s first).

Nick Dakota wrote:
That's a steep price...10k with tax. Even people that could afford it will pause at that price. The high-priced new gear is what keeps the older models value high. It becomes so unobtainable that a $4500 M10P is a bargain.


And regular price increases.

Some of the lenses I bought new around 2011-2012 now sell used for that amount. (Of course inflation!)




Oct 26, 2023 at 07:56 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


retrofocus wrote:
Considering that I still find a used M10 too expensive for my taste at this point, I hope that there is a tickle-down effect with this M-P introduction. A price drop in M11 cameras will likely also lead to lower used price points for M10 and M10-R versions. Until this comes into a reasonable price range for my taste, I will stick with my M 240


The Leica M10 had crossed the $4,000 price point even before the release of the M11-P. I spotted an M10 that old for $3,600 on the buy and sell board.



Oct 26, 2023 at 08:17 PM
RustyBug
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


M11's are out of my league, in general, but it still seems like it is all cosmetic diff's ... or an M11M with a BFA.

When I had my M-P (240), I really liked the improved shutter release (and the aesthetics), but I don't see much of an engineering (P = Performance) difference compared to the M11. Back on the M-P, the buffer was double the M, as well, so it DID make a difference back then. Not sure where the PERFORMANCE difference is in this iteration of the -P version vs. the M11.

Clue me if I'm missing something that is an actual performance gain vs. the M11.



Oct 26, 2023 at 08:37 PM
Desmolicious
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


Now that my ‘new’ M6 doesn’t scratch film anymore, what is it that the M11p offers that the M6 doesn’t?


Oct 26, 2023 at 08:41 PM
SNJOps
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


I bought an M10 earlier this year but the sapphire screen and increased internal storage are enough for me to want to upgrade. I’ll hold onto my M10 for now and look to upgrade next year. I suspect for my use case an M11p would last me many many years.


Oct 26, 2023 at 08:41 PM
M_Wales
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


Hugh visits Wetzlar.




Oct 26, 2023 at 08:54 PM
Kasper6188
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


Fred Miranda wrote:
Based on the comments I've seen online, a lot of M11 camera users share your opinion. I also agree that this update might be more appealing to M10 shooters, but there's a possibility that they'll consider buying a used M11, which could see a significant price decrease. Hopefully, the new firmware update has resolved any lingering issues that some individuals were experiencing with it.


I was out shooting with a buddy of mine last night. He already had a lockup that required removal of the battery on the new FW.



Oct 27, 2023 at 05:55 AM
retrofocus
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


cilio wrote:
Or wait for the Leica M with the optoelectronic rangefinder, which is what I believe will happen to the M and not change the rangefinder for an EVF. It’ll be the biggest update to a Leica M digital rangefinder in a very long time.


+1. Even such "EVF M" will not replace the rangefinder M but more likely will be sold in parallel.



Oct 27, 2023 at 06:13 AM
 


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retrofocus
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


cilio wrote:
@retrofocus@

Possibly. The 2015 rangefinder patents look interesting. It would make sense since they’re updating their lenses with close focus.


Yes. Another good indication is the current size of the M11-based external EVF. It fits size-wise directly inside the rangefinder patch. I agree with T. Overgaard's assessment that the M11 is kind of a prototype of such future "EVF M" camera. I am certain it will happen - to me the more interesting question is how Leica will avoid in-house competition with Q- and SL-series. I suspect the "EVF M' will be crippled regarding no video and no AF, but I might be wrong.



Oct 27, 2023 at 08:19 AM
thunderdeep
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


I imagine with the 70th year anniversary of M next year the efforts are directed towards something coming and so the M11-P got some minor upgrades. I'm interested in an M11 Black Paint if they do one and even more so to see what they do with the "Edition 70"- I'm guessing some titanium and some M11-P features in a more svelte body shape. Maybe no rear screen like an M10D or the Edition 60.

There are already some clues to what a EVF M body might be like... look at the A7CR. If they just made it as in M- body shape and M-mount...



Oct 27, 2023 at 11:32 AM
tzhang4284
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


I had the add on EVF attachment for the Leica M11 and I didn't feel the experience was as good as using the rangefinder once you got used to using the rangefinder. The panel was relatively low in resolution, noticeable lag time, and the implementation of focus peaking was very basic. In comparison, the Sony A7RV or Sony A1 EVF was absolutely magical. I would only buy the add-on EVF lenses to use with non-rangefinder coupled lenses but otherwise it's not great.

If Leica were to do a EVF Leica M, I think they would really need to up the resolution of the panel and also minimize any lag time associated with it. Ideally they would implement some sort of hybrid viewfinder like Fuji but it might take up more space than there is inside the Leica M body.

Personally, my no. 1 wishlist feature would be IBIS over a EVF to get me to buy the next one over the M11, which I'm quite happy with.



Oct 27, 2023 at 02:29 PM
flash
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


tzhang4284 wrote:
I had the add on EVF attachment for the Leica M11 and I didn't feel the experience was as good as using the rangefinder once you got used to using the rangefinder. The panel was relatively low in resolution, noticeable lag time, and the implementation of focus peaking was very basic. In comparison, the Sony A7RV or Sony A1 EVF was absolutely magical. I would only buy the add-on EVF lenses to use with non-rangefinder coupled lenses but otherwise it's not great.

If Leica were to do a EVF Leica M, I think they would really need to up the resolution
...Show more



Likely something like the Q3 EVF, I would guess and possibly even that shape. I don't think it would be a copy of an M body as it doesn't have to be and they need some extra depth for IBIS. It'd be something *smallish*, Q shaped and different enough from the M shaped body to not offend the purists, if I were designing it.

Gordon



Oct 27, 2023 at 02:52 PM
tzhang4284
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


flash wrote:
Likely something like the Q3 EVF, I would guess and possibly even that shape. I don't think it would be a copy of an M body as it doesn't have to be and they need some extra depth for IBIS. It'd be something *smallish*, Q shaped and different enough from the M shaped body to not offend the purists, if I were designing it.

Gordon


You're probably right on them just using the Q3 EVF and the depth issues with adding IBIS so probably a no go.

On the Q3 EVF, I thought it was better than the add-on EVF for the M11 but not as good as the Sony EVFs I tried before. I did like how Leica incorporated the frame lines concept digitally - was a nice touch. I do think the slightly large body of the M vs Q handles better generally.



Oct 27, 2023 at 04:08 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


Here is a good explanation of the M11-P's encrypted metadata in compliance with the Content Authenticity Initiative (CAI):




Oct 27, 2023 at 07:06 PM
Desmolicious
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


What exactly is the ‘dark chrome viewfinder’?


Oct 29, 2023 at 12:01 AM
jigesh
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


On M11, top and bottom of the view finder has silver/gray "strips" looking from the front of the camera. On M11-P, it's dark.


Oct 29, 2023 at 03:39 AM
RustyBug
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


retrofocus wrote:
+1. Even such "EVF M" will not replace the rangefinder M but more likely will be sold in parallel.


+1 ... parallel

I mean, we have every other version of M (-M, -P, -A, -R, etc.) sold in parallel. An M without an LCD screen is a variant sold in parallel. Why wouldn't a variant with an EVF be sold in parallel.

Imo, there is absolutely NO WAY that an EVF variant REPLACES the optical rangefinder. The history and expectation for an optical rangefinder ... i.e. the only mature option ... would mean that an absences of an optical rangefinder in a future model line (key point, model line includes multiple variants of a given model lineup) would be the end of the RF M. The RF M must always be available ... even, if it is in conjunction with other variants.

Parallel is the only viable way, as I see it.



Oct 29, 2023 at 07:35 AM
RustyBug
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Official: Leica M11-P announced


retrofocus wrote:
the more interesting question is how Leica will avoid in-house competition with Q- and SL-series. I suspect the "EVF M' will be crippled regarding no video and no AF, but I might be wrong.


If you put AF in an M ... ummm, then it isn't an M. While the EVF variant might infuse some crossover from those folks using an SL with the adapted M glass, it in no way can replace the AF functionality of an SL or Q. At that point, it is a Full Frame CL, which is an SL.

In order for their to be AF on an M ... with an actual M mount ... the distance to the focal plane would have to be correct for the M lenses, and its associated placement of the micro lenses. In order to have a native M mount, and include AF functionality, then Leica would have to develop an entirely new line of AF lenses designed for that distance. It's not like you can just toss an L mount lens onto a native M mount, and have it function properly throughout its entire focal distance range. It would require all new AF lenses. So ... no, AF (on an M) will not be a function that cripples AF sales of the Q or SL lineup.

Those that want AF will not be buying an M. Those that want manual focus, but could use a different viewing aid than the optical rangefinder ... and don't want to fiddle with the Visoflex (I have two versions, that I use as an angle finder moreover than an EVF), will be candidates for an EVF variant. BUT, in addition ... those folks who are adapting M lenses onto other mirrorless mounts will now be ENABLED (vs. crippling) to have the similar EVF experience they prefer, with an EVF variant (parallel model).

Personally, I think the inclusion of an EVF variant will OPEN A NEW MARKET for Leica. It may be of NO INTEREST to those of us who STRONGLY PREFER the merits of the optical rangefinder ... but, there are folks who won't make the leap to Leica without the EVF. I very much see the enabled market opening from (current) non-Leica shooters, vastly greater than the crippling of the Q or SL markets for those who still desire / require autofocus.



Personally, I'd like to see a tilt LCD (which allows for the angle finding) combined with the optical rangefinder, prior to an EVF. In that way, you've got the option for working in either plane (without attachments). But, that's just me ... one for go (optical RF), one for slow and low (tilting LCD). The Hassy X2D implementation of a tilt LCD looks very flush / clean when folded. I'd dig that on an M.



Oct 29, 2023 at 07:48 AM
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