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Canon R1....it's coming

  
 
duncang
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · Canon R1....it's coming


lighthound wrote:
It's hilarious to see Sony's masterful marketing at work.
They have successfully made a worse IQ sensor than it's predecessor AND they are going to milk their users an ADDITIONAL $1,500 USD ($2,066 CAD) for it!
This is just too precious.


Remember Sony users have had access to the A9 since - well for ever, and they have had access to the A1 since, nearly forever (it seems).

The Sony users who might be in the market for something specialised like this for action / flash will find the a9iii pretty amazing. Most likely they already have an A9/A9ii or A1 and I doubt they will be too concerned about a minor reduction in DR for most action or flash scenarios since they already have options to use iii DR is the priority.

They're likely going to be like me - just after 120fps or 60fps RAW speed increase WITH CONTINUOUS AF that is as good as or better than what they already have. Or unencumbered flash photography - of which I know little.

Sure it is a big price to pay but for really fast wildlife action it will be hard to beat. I already have an A1 and 30fps still has big gaps for really fast action - 60fps or 120fps would almost guarantee getting exceptional shots if you can keep the subject in the frame.

Pre-capture at 120FPS RAW with continuous AF is going to be something else. Far outweighs any slight step back in DR - and from the samples it doesn't look there will be any perceptible difference at the typical working exposure for fast action.

Here is a sample of things I shoot - an a9iii will probably mean getting shots like these daily, if conditions allow, rather than once every fortnight after 40 hours of continuous attempts and 15,000+ images.

Pre-capture will be a game changer for this kind of action. No need to capture 10s of thousands of images now - just track the bird and once you know you were able to keep it in the frame until it was filling the frame then press the shutter button. And bang you have the previous second in the bag.

Most of my sequences for this kind of action are under 2 seconds so the buffer size will be perfect - and can always extend it by reducing to 60fps.

I think Sony hit the nail on the head with this camera for this kind of action.

























And here is to hoping the R1 lives up to your expectations when it arrives.



Nov 14, 2023 at 02:32 AM
jedibrain
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · Canon R1....it's coming


The general rhetoric online is that 24mp isn't enough for birds, and high IsO is a must due to the times of day you must shoot. So not sure how many will do what youbare doing. Many here skipped the R3 for the resolution and stuck with the R5. And R3 looks like better noise performance Than the new Sony.

Brian

duncang wrote:
Remember Sony users have had access to the A9 since - well for ever, and they have had access to the A1 since, nearly forever (it seems).

The Sony users who might be in the market for something specialised like this for action / flash will find the a9iii pretty amazing. Most likely they already have an A9/A9ii or A1 and I doubt they will be too concerned about a minor reduction in DR for most action or flash scenarios since they already have options to use iii DR is the priority.

They're likely going to be like me - just
...Show more



Nov 14, 2023 at 06:35 AM
lighthound
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · Canon R1....it's coming


duncang wrote:
Remember Sony users have had access to the A9 since - well for ever, and they have had access to the A1 since, nearly forever (it seems).

The Sony users who might be in the market for something specialised like this for action / flash will find the a9iii pretty amazing. Most likely they already have an A9/A9ii or A1 and I doubt they will be too concerned about a minor reduction in DR for most action or flash scenarios since they already have options to use iii DR is the priority.

They're likely going to be like me - just
...Show more

I won't be in the market for the R1, but I'm sure it'll exceed everyone's expectations including those from the other side of the fence. There's a very good reason why Canon has been taking their time developing their first mirrorless flagship rather than rushing a half baked design to market like Sony seems to have done with their A9III.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that if Canon were to make the R5II with the same specs as the A9III and cripples the IQ like Sony has done and then jacks up the price an additional $1500USD ($2,061CAD) over what I paid for the R5, then Canon definitely won't be making any money off from me. I'll take the amazing high ISO 45mp sensor of my R5 every day of the week for what I enjoy shooting.

The R3's AF and high ISO capability is well beyond that of my R5, so we can only imagine what the R1 will bring to the table.
These images reflect what's possible with the lowly 45mp R5.
The crippled 24mp A9III?.... not so much.
Yeah, Sony definitely hit something or someone on the head.


ISO 51,200



ISO 25,600



ISO 12,800



ISO 12,800



ISO 12,800



Nov 14, 2023 at 08:33 AM
marsguy
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · Canon R1....it's coming


Lighthound, those images are fantastic. Would you mind sharing a few details of your NR and sharpening workflow? The lack of color noise (especially color noise) in the ISO51200 deer shot is pretty insane. I have a pretty hard time keeping usable colors going that high so I'm extremely curious. I don't expect all of your secret sauce, but I'm honestly a bit in disbelief, so I'd love some details if you're willing to share!


Nov 14, 2023 at 12:12 PM
lighthound
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · Canon R1....it's coming


marsguy wrote:
Lighthound, those images are fantastic. Would you mind sharing a few details of your NR and sharpening workflow? The lack of color noise (especially color noise) in the ISO51200 deer shot is pretty insane. I have a pretty hard time keeping usable colors going that high so I'm extremely curious. I don't expect all of your secret sauce, but I'm honestly a bit in disbelief, so I'd love some details if you're willing to share!


Thanks. I'm afraid there isn't much to share as I'm not a big post pressing expert by any means and do as little processing as possible. I used to use DXO PR before LR came out with the new NR tool. I think I used DXO PR for that shot. I stopped using it in favor of LR because the DXO version I was using would always over sharpen images even when you have it turned off. Sharpening? I usually just use LR or if the mood strikes, I might use smart sharpen in PS.

If your disbelief is if that image is actually ISO 51,200 then here's the Flickr link to view the EXIF along with any others you might want to look at.
Piebald with his Mom



Nov 14, 2023 at 12:51 PM
docusync
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · Canon R1....it's coming


@duncang@ @lighthound really awesome photos folks!
One thing comes to mind while looking at those photos - the photographer matters way more than any camera! Well, and some good quality noise reduction…



Nov 14, 2023 at 01:40 PM
jwolfe
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · Canon R1....it's coming


A train wreck?? These forums crack me up. The camera isn’t even out yet. No one has seen sample images. No one has bought one and tried it. And the A9iii is not intended for wildlife. It’s a sports and news camera. ISOs above 25,000 really don’t matter in that world.

The R1 will likely be very similar to the A1/Z9. 45-50 mp with a high frame rate and stacked sensor. The R5 mark ii will not have a stacked sensor unless there is a clear difference between the bodies.

melcat wrote:
I think not. It seems to be turning into a bit of a train wreck for Sony. It’s a bit unfair, since they made a genuine engineering trade-off of noise performance for the global shutter. I’m sure they’ll sell a lot for the Olympics. But in the meantime, every day it goes on makes it easier for Canon to say “here’s your R1 with quad pixel AF, 45Mpx, great low light performance and dynamic range, and 4ms shutter” (or whatever it will be) early next year.




Nov 14, 2023 at 02:13 PM
alundeb
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · Canon R1....it's coming


Last time I checked, sports, and especially indoors with cycling lights, was exactly where high ISO was a priority.


Nov 14, 2023 at 02:24 PM
jwolfe
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · Canon R1....it's coming


Professional sports photographers aren’t shooting with a 100-400. At night or indoors it’s 2.8. I was shooting HS football at night back in the D1 and EOS 1D days just fine. You don’t need ISO 50,000 for that. And most places nowadays are lit well. Every camera I’ve shot since the late 2000s has had anti-flicker.

alundeb wrote:
Last time I checked, sports, and especially indoors with cycling lights, was exactly where high ISO was a priority.




Nov 14, 2023 at 02:34 PM
artsupreme
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · Canon R1....it's coming


It seems there's a lot of confusion in Canonland over this A9III. This is a very specialized tool for shooting the fastest of action/motion in the world. It could be said this will be the fastest consumer camera ever, which will open doors to capturing things that were nearly impossible to capture before. It also opens doors with flash photography that weren't possible before.

Sony did not reduce the amount of MP on this generation, it's 24MP just like the previous A9's are. This camera is not for shooting standing wildlife at high ISOs. If one wanted a higher resolution body like the R5 then Sony has options, including the A1 which Canon doesn't have right now. Once the R1 is released it will have to deal with the Sony A1mkII.

The A9III should be looked at as the R3mkII competitor. The R3 already does 120fps bursts, and so I would expect the R3mkII to do 120fps like the A9III. Then the decision would be Global shutter and a slight hit on ISO/DR versus the R3mkII with whatever spec it has.

As for the hit on ISO, I believe this is probably way overblown and we're just splitting hairs here. With the amount of new NR software we have any slight difference in noise shouldn't be an issue. Also, ISO 25,600 should be fine for most everything sports.

I don't get all the bashing on other brands as it will only make your favorite brand better by raising the bar. The camera isn't even out yet and people are bashing away.



Nov 14, 2023 at 02:47 PM
 


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alundeb
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · Canon R1....it's coming


We still need this:
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/01/rogers-law-of-new-product-introduction/



Nov 14, 2023 at 02:53 PM
Uarctos
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · Canon R1....it's coming


Iso 51200, f10 and 1/1600s is the same as iso 1600, f4 and 1/320s shot on a 600mm f4.
Shooting the same image at iso 51200, f4 and 1/320s will generate basically a crap result. Now that's lowlight. At iso 1600 the result will be excellent.





Nov 14, 2023 at 03:15 PM
lighthound
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · Canon R1....it's coming


Uarctos wrote:
Iso 51200, f10 and 1/1600s is the same as iso 1600, f4 and 1/320s shot on a 600mm f4.
Shooting the same image at iso 51200, f4 and 1/320s will generate basically a crap result. Now that's lowlight. At iso 1600 the result will be excellent.



Congratulations, your math is spot on!
But the thing you are missing is the back story of how those images came to be and why.
That is an extremely rare Piebald whitetail buck. It's almost a mystical creature that has never been seen by most people in their life time. I didn't have much time to react when I saw them trotting through my property. If I had the luxury of time on my side I obviously would have popped that damn TC off and dropped the SS down but I had no time to even think, much less turn the camera on. I grabbed the camera , popped the cap off and turned it on as quickly as I could as I ran outside. I was hell bent on making sure I got a few images of this extremely rare creature.
Thankfully the R5 handled the hasty situation perfectly (much better than me) such that the ridiculously high ISO and needless SS didn't kill my shots. Any other camera that falls apart at extreme ISO's would have yielded nothing but nasty mush files destine for the trash bin. That's worth the price of admission in my book.




Nov 14, 2023 at 05:23 PM
exdeejjjaaaa
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · Canon R1....it's coming


artsupreme wrote:
With the amount of new NR software we have any slight difference in noise shouldn't be an issue.

sure, but as that same NR applicable to both cameras the difference persist and NR will not reduce it ...




Nov 14, 2023 at 05:31 PM
artsupreme
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · Canon R1....it's coming


exdeejjjaaaa wrote:
sure, but as that same NR applicable to both cameras the difference persist and NR will not reduce it ...



This is not 2010. All modern sensors are pretty amazing and the new NR software can make old sensors look damn good too. If you are worried about noise in a 2023 body you are probably looking for things to complain about.



Nov 14, 2023 at 07:11 PM
Imagery
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · Canon R1....it's coming


Amazing shot of the Piebald whitetail buck at that high ISO Lighthound with that 100-500 + TC!!




Nov 14, 2023 at 10:25 PM
NonDecaf
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · Canon R1....it's coming


action99 wrote:
If this is true and it is the cost of GS I hope Canon goes for a stack sensor for the R1 and hopefully for R5 II too.

https://www.eoshd.com/news/sony-a9-iii-high-iso-raw-test-a-noisier-6k-sensor-than-predecessor/#more-33207


It seems to be the cost of having a GS. For what its worth, the global shutter that Canon offered 7 years ago, also took a 1 stop DR hit.

https://en.canon-cna.com/pro/services/upgrades/eos-c700-global-shutter-cmos-sensor-replacement/#sensorcomparision






Nov 15, 2023 at 02:03 AM
duncang
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · Canon R1....it's coming


jedibrain wrote:
The general rhetoric online is that 24mp isn't enough for birds, and high IsO is a must due to the times of day you must shoot. So not sure how many will do what youbare doing. Many here skipped the R3 for the resolution and stuck with the R5. And R3 looks like better noise performance Than the new Sony.

Brian



Sure if I have only a single camera I would stick with the A1 - but given I already have one of those I may as well sell my A9 and upgrade it to an A9iii for the various improvements it offers.

I don't understand all the fuss about the dynamic range - the in-camera jpeg samples that have been posted seem to be perfectly fine. If there was a major issue with DR it would be very evident.

24mp seems plenty to me particularly if it means capturing shots you wouldn't otherwise easily be able to.








Nov 15, 2023 at 06:39 AM
duncang
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · Canon R1....it's coming


lighthound wrote:
I won't be in the market for the R1, but I'm sure it'll exceed everyone's expectations including those from the other side of the fence. There's a very good reason why Canon has been taking their time developing their first mirrorless flagship rather than rushing a half baked design to market like Sony seems to have done with their A9III.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that if Canon were to make the R5II with the same specs as the A9III and cripples the IQ like Sony has done and then jacks up the price an additional $1500USD ($2,061CAD)
...Show more


Your assumption seems to be that you can only ever own a single camera and that you would have to give up your high resolution camera.

No way I would get rid of the A1 for anything other than A1ii, but upgrading my A9 to A9iii would make sense. I seldom go above iso6400 or below iso800 so can't see any big compromise in the IQ department in this range.

If I had to use iso25,600 or above I am sure I would have a different set of priorities.



Nov 15, 2023 at 06:55 AM
duncang
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · Canon R1....it's coming


jwolfe wrote:
A train wreck?? These forums crack me up. The camera isn’t even out yet. No one has seen sample images. No one has bought one and tried it. And the A9iii is not intended for wildlife. It’s a sports and news camera. ISOs above 25,000 really don’t matter in that world.

The R1 will likely be very similar to the A1/Z9. 45-50 mp with a high frame rate and stacked sensor. The R5 mark ii will not have a stacked sensor unless there is a clear difference between the bodies.



Help me understand the "no-one has seen sample images" part ?

There seem to be plenty of same images straight out of the camera - how are these not representative of what the production camera will be capable of ?

In my experience processing RAW files with desktop software results in better images than the in-camera jpegs - isn't it reasonable to conclude that the production images will be the same or better than the ones that are currently available ?

The samples at iso12,800 seem perfectly fine - certainly no evidence of a train wreck is there ?

What am I missing here ?



Nov 15, 2023 at 07:00 AM
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