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Canon R1....it's coming

johnctharp
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Canon R1....it's coming

artsupreme wrote:
Sony's new A9III and 300 2.8 look incredible. That 300 2.8 is a featherweight. Global shutter in the A9III is pretty insane. Quite the sports setup.

I haven't been following the greater photography world recently, and well, the specs on the A9 III are pretty incredible.

For most folks, I'm doubting that there will be 'anything left' photographically they'd need. Complaints will be limited to the camera being a Sony camera (meaning ergonomics and UI) more than anything else outside of the resolution, assuming Sony executes on the camera the same as they have been for recent releases.

For ~US$6000, it almost seems like a steal to me, if the capabilities are needed.

And I say the above to say this: Canon needs to make this camera, whether that's what the upcoming R1 is or something else. It has to be as fast and as versatile, and it has to work in the field the way it will be suggested on paper.

Beyond that, there also needs to be a high-res, mostly-pro 's' body. R5s, R3s, something else... if Canon is going to put out class-leading glass, they need sensors that can push the limits behind it.

Nov 07, 2023 at 01:50 PM

action99
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Canon R1....it's coming

It is a great achievement to have a FF global shutter but in practice why somebody would buy an A9III instead of a A1 for about the same price?

I don't get it maybe the AF is much better.. then it would make sense. Other than for golf I don't think the A1 has any real world rolling shutter issue (same for Z9-8, R3). The flash sync is also a bit wired as apparently the A9 III external flash sync caps at 1/500 at iso 250 so you gain nothing if I got it right. With the onboard ones is also wired as you cannot use them full power but you need to lower the output based on the shutter speed.... so is probably more efficient than HSS but not that you can shoot at 1/2000 f1.2 at full power https://support.d-imaging.sony.co.jp/support/ilc/flash/ilce9m3/en/index.php

I do agree that although super impressive weight saving from a sport/action perspective is a miss to have produced a 300 prime instead of a zoom. Two bodies two lenes is such a pain and you miss moments. Nikon will most probably "port" their 120-300 to mirrorless too.

Nov 07, 2023 at 01:59 PM

rscheffler
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Canon R1....it's coming

If the sensor is capable of capturing still images at up to 120fps, and calculating AF between exposures, the sensor readout speed must be very fast. Plus it gets the updated AI AF capabilities of the a7RV, which sounds like it's somewhat hardware dependent and therefore older cameras like the a1 won't simply get it via firmware updates.

Regarding flash compatibility with global shutter: on-camera speedlite type flash units typically have very long flash duration at full power, often only in the ~1/250 range. So if you use such a flash at full power on a global shutter camera at a crazy high shutter speed, the sensor will only be sampling a small 'slice' of the flash's full power output spanning 1/250. For example, shooting at 1/1000 would sample only 1/4 the full power output if the flash duration is 1/250 (this is ignoring that output is not linear and actually quickly peaks and then trails off more gradually). Likewise 1/2000 shutter would be 1/8th the flash's output, 1/4000 would be 1/16, 1/8000 would be 1/32, etc. To compensate you'd have to open the aperture or boost ISO

If you look at their charts at the above link referencing 'low flash lighting amount warning' you'll note that as the flash power is reduced, compatibility with higher shutter speeds improves. This is because with these flashes, as power is reduced, flash duration decreases (becomes shorter). Therefore more of the flash's output is a closer match to those higher shutter speeds.

Nov 07, 2023 at 02:53 PM

action99
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Canon R1....it's coming

Yes, I forgot about how slow speedlights are so you really gain not much with GS. But why 1/500 max with external strobes then? Quadra A head is 1/4000 at max power for example.

Nov 07, 2023 at 03:09 PM

artsupreme
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Canon R1....it's coming

rscheffler wrote:
Agreed, on paper it all looks amazing. I'm guessing it will mostly translate to real world capabilities, too. The 300 is amazingly lightweight at basically half the weight of the original EF 300/2.8 from the '80s. But I can't help feel Sony slightly missed the boat by making it a prime lens. Maybe it's so it can be as small and light as possible. However, from my somewhat sports-centric perspective at least, if given the choice, I will never go back to fast prime super-tele lenses if equivalent (speed and image quality) zooms are available. Especially with 'low' resolution ~24MP...Show more →

I don't mind the fact that the Sony is not a zoom given it's featherweight. I've been shooting with a 300 2.8 for 20+ years and I've never felt like I missed the shot because it was not a zoom. Especially during the last 10 years when AF and fps kept improving on modern cameras. My canon 300's have always been some of my favorite primes for shooting sports and motocross. I would not hesitate to continue using a 300 prime moving forward, especially at that weight. The 300's nowadays are swiss army knives giving you 3 lenses in one with the TC's. I bought the RF 100-300 and it's great, but it doesn't make a lightweight 300 obsolete IMO. The Sony is much lighter and $3500 cheaper, so it's still a great value for it's size, weight, and performance.

Nov 07, 2023 at 03:10 PM

rscheffler
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Canon R1....it's coming

action99 wrote:
Yes, I forgot about how slow speedlights are so you really gain not much with GS. But why 1/500 max with external strobes then? Quadra A head is 1/4000 at max power for example.

I haven't seen the full specs for the a9III yet. Where did you see this posted?

Nov 07, 2023 at 03:41 PM

crisdesign
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Canon R1....it's coming

Canon stated they could do a zoom for the same weight of a 300mm 2.8 prime, a few months later this is no longer the case. Truly remarkable achievement from Sony. Hopefully it would put pressure on Canon to innovate further.

Nov 07, 2023 at 03:55 PM

lighthound
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Canon R1....it's coming

WTF? Did I accidently click over the the Sony forum or something?
I thought this thread was about the upcoming CANON R1?
Perhaps the OP could rename the thread so Canon users can simply skip past this thread.

Nov 07, 2023 at 03:59 PM

gkinard1952
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Canon R1....it's coming

I'll be curious to see what the sensor is. Looks like Canon has been putting all of its R&D into its new 2-5nm. microchip machines. Trying to come up with a non EUV lithography machine. The middle of last month they announced an extremely cheap machine that they say can produce the chips. If they can at scale and companies adapt to them then the photo division will take second place. But then they can put some R&D money into the photo division.
I personally see a good investment opportunity in Canon if they are successful..
If Canon fails to produce the microchip machines or companies don't adapt , and there are many saying they cannot produce at scale. Then Canon stock will remain stale IMHO. And keep pumping out overpriced products that cannot compete.

Edited on Nov 08, 2023 at 01:42 AM · View previous versions

Nov 07, 2023 at 04:24 PM

jwolfe
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Canon R1....it's coming

Personally I hope they go back to the design ethos of the original EOS 1 and do a smaller body with an optional grip. Not all of us want to tote around a monster. I love the Sony A1 for its size and shape.

Nov 07, 2023 at 04:49 PM

jedibrain
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Canon R1....it's coming

Sadly, I think this announcement from Sony just gave Canon license to price the R1 at $8-10k, and the R5mkII at $5k. I suspect both with have higher res and similar speed. Maybe R5mk2 not stacked though, and certainly without global shutter.

I also can't help but to feel like if this A9III spec were a camera launched by Canon, people wouldn't be so in awe of it. Not enough resolution (as the R3 was killed for over and over). Wrong card type (slower, more expensive CFx type A). I wonder what the 120fps mode looks like too - may be jpg only like the Z9, and very short burst.

Brian

Nov 07, 2023 at 05:14 PM

gkinard1952
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Canon R1....it's coming

Nov 07, 2023 at 05:23 PM

armd
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Canon R1....it's coming

While doubters and haters abound, Sony's announcement is a great portend for photographers. Maybe the R1 will have global shutter and maybe it won't. Maybe it will be 60 MP and maybe it won't. What it likely will be is another great Canon camera and eventually (within 1-2 years) the increases in technology will scale up global shutters for the masses in high MP form.

Nov 07, 2023 at 06:07 PM

artsupreme
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Canon R1....it's coming

jedibrain wrote:
Sadly, I think this announcement from Sony just gave Canon license to price the R1 at $8-10k, and the R5mkII at $5k. I suspect both with have higher res and similar speed. Maybe R5mk2 not stacked though, and certainly without global shutter.

I also can't help but to feel like if this A9III spec were a camera launched by Canon, people wouldn't be so in awe of it. Not enough resolution (as the R3 was killed for over and over). Wrong card type (slower, more expensive CFx type A). I wonder what the 120fps mode looks like too - may...Show more →

The R5II won't come close to the A9III spec in terms of fps and rolling shutter. It's a totally different camera for a different purpose. The R5II needs to be looking at the Z8 which has a stacked sensor and same resolution for $3999. No way could canon price the R5II at $5k unless it had stacked sensor, was 30fps at 45MP, and R3 AF. Then $5k would make sense but I doubt they'll change it's place in the lineup. I see the R5II staying where it is in the mid 3K range and it will have the same sensor (non stacked) with incremental improvements, faster readout speed, better AF, and improved video function. That leaves room for a 60MP R1 that can try to compete with the A1mkII that's approaching.

The R3 has been beaten to death because Canon does not have an R1 like Sony has the A1. Once Canon releases their A1 competitor, then the R3 will have a home and can stay at 24mp for a high speed sports body like the A9III.

Nov 07, 2023 at 08:11 PM

rscheffler
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Canon R1....it's coming

How long has the a1 been out? Quite some time and a Mark II in the wings. Canon remains conspicuously absent from the space now occupied by both the Z9 and a1.

jedibrain wrote:
Sadly, I think this announcement from Sony just gave Canon license to price the R1 at $8-10k, and the R5mkII at $5k. I suspect both with have higher res and similar speed. Maybe R5mk2 not stacked though, and certainly without global shutter.

R1 depends on how it compares against the Z9 and a1II, whenever it's released. R5II has to contend with the Z8 in this space - stacked and attractively priced. Of course Canon will price it higher than the Z8. I can't recall when Canon priced a higher-end product lower than the competition. I don't see the appeal of the a7RV relative to the R5 or Z8, unless you're already in the Sony system. For an FSI sensor from ~2020, the R5's readout is pretty fast, but I feel if the Mark II is not stacked, then it needs to be close in readout speed to be competitive. It's currently the only high resolution option from Canon comparable to the wide ranging competition from Z8, Z9, a1, a7RIV and V and as such is a compromise compared to some of those cameras (of course depending on the specs important for your needs).

I would be very surprised to see a high MP global shutter sensor from Canon. I also wonder how much dual-pixel AF affects development of such a sensor.

As I posted earlier, about a year ago Canon released a couple 19MP FF global shutter sensors for industrial applications. Those were 12-bit readout vs. the a9III's 14 bits. No idea how 'cutting edge' those sensors were for Canon at the time and where they stand now with GS technology. Hopefully it's not too far off, but whenever it arrives, it will probably be in an R3 Mark II.

Nov 07, 2023 at 08:14 PM

johnctharp
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Canon R1....it's coming

rscheffler wrote:
I would be very surprised to see a high MP global shutter sensor from Canon. I also wonder how much dual-pixel AF affects development of such a sensor..

I think you mean to imply negative effects, but if not, the positive effect that comes to mind might be for Canon to finally move to "quad-pixel-AF", or QPAF, whereby microlenses and underlying half-pixels can be oriented horizontally as well as vertically.

Nov 07, 2023 at 09:47 PM

SNJOps
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Canon R1....it's coming

jedibrain wrote:
Sadly, I think this announcement from Sony just gave Canon license to price the R1 at $8-10k, and the R5mkII at $5k. I suspect both with have higher res and similar speed. Maybe R5mk2 not stacked though, and certainly without global shutter.

I also can't help but to feel like if this A9III spec were a camera launched by Canon, people wouldn't be so in awe of it. Not enough resolution (as the R3 was killed for over and over). Wrong card type (slower, more expensive CFx type A). I wonder what the 120fps mode looks like too - may...Show more →

The 120fps mode is 14bit RAW which genuinely shocked me when they announced it, I too thought that it would be a jpeg only mode when it was 1st rumoured and even during the presentation until it was explained and they showed images taken during that mode will play as a video clip in camera then you can select the frame you want and that becomes your raw file. I also saw Manny Ortiz take a shot with a strobe at 1/80000 - just incredible specs.

Quite a few are disappointed by the 24mp sensor but those are clearly not the target market for this body similar to those who criticised the R3 for its resolution. I suspect once Canon’s global shutter is ready it will make its way into an
R3 MK II, high resolution global sensors that match the IQ and DR of their stacked counterparts is still a probably a few years away.

Nov 08, 2023 at 01:06 AM

alundeb
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Canon R1....it's coming

johnctharp wrote:
Beyond that, there also needs to be a high-res, mostly-pro 's' body. R5s, R3s, something else... if Canon is going to put out class-leading glass, they need sensors that can push the limits behind it.
I have stopped hoping for anything like a high res R5s in the foreseeable future. One thing is that it seems like higher resolution than what we already have is not in high demand.
On the technology side, there are challenges with pixel vignetting as well as needing a fast readout for viewfinder and autofocus to be acceptable in 2025. These challenges can only be overcome with a BSI stacked sensor. But we will see after the R1. Whenever that will be

Nov 08, 2023 at 01:59 AM

jedibrain
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Canon R1....it's coming

Yes, I later saw a more detailed review that confirmed its compressed raws.

Brian

SNJOps wrote:
The 120fps mode is 14bit RAW which genuinely shocked me when they announced it, I too thought that it would be a jpeg only mode when it was 1st rumoured and even during the presentation until it was explained and they showed images taken during that mode will play as a video clip in camera then you can select the frame you want and that becomes your raw file. I also saw Manny Ortiz take a shot with a strobe at 1/80000 - just incredible specs.

Quite a few are disappointed by the 24mp sensor but those are clearly not the...Show more →

Nov 08, 2023 at 06:06 AM

exdeejjjaaaa
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Canon R1....it's coming

rscheffler wrote:
I also wonder how much dual-pixel AF affects development of such a sensor.

nothing to wonder - R5 is actually a 90mp sensor to deal with

Nov 08, 2023 at 07:10 AM

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