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Archive 2023 · Any 1 to 1 comparisons of A7CII to A7CR?

Jonas B
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p.3 #1 · Any 1 to 1 comparisons of A7CII to A7CR?

Here is a comparison that may, or not may, be somewhat indicative with regards to resolution and all those megapixels:

https://photos.imageevent.com/jonas_b/fotoforum2022andfw/d029_A7C_40G_f_2.8_shelf_single.jpg

https://photos.imageevent.com/jonas_b/fotoforum2022andfw/h78_A7CR_40G_f_4.0_shelf_single.jpg

https://photos.imageevent.com/jonas_b/fotoforum2022andfw/i01_A7CR_40G_f_2.8_shelf_PSMS4.jpg

https://photos.imageevent.com/jonas_b/fotoforum2022andfw/h01_A7CR_40G_f_2.8_shelf_PSMS16.jpg

The images are taken with the 40G and they are all 100% crops. Let's say the 40G performs as any average modern lens when it comes to resolution abilities.
The images processed from 4 and 16 images are processed using the Sony Imaging Edge Desktop. I have not learned the application enough to say an image is sharpened or softened but it is clear that sharpening is applied also when the sharpening slider is at the zero position. That makes them look cleaner but comparing the single shot to the 4 image composition we can see that there is no increase in resolution. The thing with these images is that false colors are quite effectively removed.

When I had the A7C I rarely missed missed my older 42MP cameras. I have keepers taken with a lousy 6MP APS-C camera, the lackluster Canon 5D classic 13MP, the 24MP RX1 and the A7C and so on. I don't really need 60MP, or at least I need it very seldom and then I can probably stitch.

So, now it's an A7CR and the eye AF works wonderfully well, the camera is kind of complicated to setup but when done I very seldom visit the menu and so on.

Then why not get the A7Cii? I would, after all, like holding it, carrying it and use it just the same way as I like the A7CR.
I could say it is because I crop a lot but that would be partly true only. The as simple as stupid reason is that I don't want to get hit by pixel envy.

Edit: spelling and language and a few words about the software and need of pixels.

Edited on Nov 04, 2023 at 06:22 AM · View previous versions

Nov 03, 2023 at 05:11 PM

BillD208
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p.3 #2 · Any 1 to 1 comparisons of A7CII to A7CR?

Buy whatever makes you happy. That's my approach.

Nov 03, 2023 at 05:14 PM

nepali
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p.3 #3 · Any 1 to 1 comparisons of A7CII to A7CR?

BillD208 wrote:
Buy whatever makes you happy. That's my approach.

Definitely! OP created this thread to decide between A7CII and A7CR, and we have folks recommending A7R5 instead.

Nov 03, 2023 at 05:58 PM

graytrekker
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p.3 #4 · Any 1 to 1 comparisons of A7CII to A7CR?

This has been an interesting read for me and I was hoping for some "resolution" of the debate within my own head. But, alas, no.

I'm an older guy (69) who still actively backpacks. I shoot only landscapes - no video. Additionally, I enjoy astro and the odd night cityscape if I rarely find myself in that environment.

I grew up with Nikon SLRs, not i-phones, like my daughter. She has an A7III and now an A7C and basically disabled the EVFs and composes totally on the back screen. I can't do that. I have an A7RIII and work pretty exclusively through the EVF [ I think I am a dinosaur

]

I am more comfortable with manual primes - I have a small assortment of Loxias and Voigtlanders, and appreciate the in-EVVF focus peaking. I don't mind carrying all that crap if its just a day hike ("training" for heavier packs). BUT - when it comes to my backpacking trips (3 - 5 nights), weight is very important. So far I have managed by using just my 24-105 and my Loxia 21. Add in tripod and all the other seemingly necessary accessories, and it becomes a burden. I don't think I want to got the MFT route. I want all the image quality I can carry.

The A7CX paired with the 20-70 zoom would drop about a pound and a half from my kit. Someone said 200 g isn't significant -but 1-1/2 lbs sure are when you're tying to shoot for as close to a 30 lb pack as possible (usually 35 these days). [love the focus bracketing feature they and the Nikon Z 7II have]

So, A7C II or A7CR?? I really like the 40-50 MP range. (That 42 MP sensor shows the highest DR on photonstophotos - beautiful sensor. Too bad it is now been made obsolete.) Why did they put pixel shift in the 61 MP camera and not the 33? Seems backwards to me. Can I live with that EVF? I know - try one and see. But I live in rural Montana and the nearest camera store is probably Salt Lake or Denver. Hopefully, I'll be in a real city around Thanksgiving and can "see" for myself. Maybe I just keep what I have (and look at the 20-70)

thanks for reading and reading your suggestions

Doug

PS - that EVF in the A7RV sounds like a dream!! 9+ MP!! but heavier than the RIII.

Nov 03, 2023 at 08:31 PM

patotts
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p.3 #5 · Any 1 to 1 comparisons of A7CII to A7CR?

Hey Doug,

If you are hiking in and out, then surely every gram counts.

You would save 140 gram going with an a7CR/C2 over the a7Riii. If I were shooting mainly landscape with the 20-70/4 lens (I haven't used it), I'd go with the 61 MP a7CR. You would have much better latitude to crop. But keeping your a7Riii is certainly a good option.

Lastly, if you live far from camera stores, I suggest buying used here on FM, then you can "try out" the gear for a few weeks and if it doesn't work you can sell it here again for pretty much the same money. Look at it as cheap rent (even if it is a bit of a hassle).

Edited on Nov 03, 2023 at 11:31 PM · View previous versions

Nov 03, 2023 at 10:59 PM

philip_pj
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p.3 #6 · Any 1 to 1 comparisons of A7CII to A7CR?

Doug, the lenses are going to make the difference, not Sony's latest dream cam for video-oriented street people. Not many zooms are going to stand up across the frame with Sony's highest Mp sensor, and you would give up 25% resolution going with the a7C II. The new cameras are a mere 140 grams lighter than your current body too - big deal.

Far be it to suggest what others should do, but I would keep the a7rIII you have; put the zoom on a shelf, and take two more primes in its place. It's sacrilege to use any zoom over a Loxia 21mm, that's a big step backwards into IQ mediocrity.

The 20-70 issues sharp but 'etched' images (cheap asph overload) and has 9% native distortion (!) at the important 20mm end, with awful bokeh and unpleasant highlights (from a prime shooter's perspective). The 20-70 is almost 500 grams, so out of the wide range frying pan into the shorter focal length fire, but now with oddball 72mm filters.

Look through your FL distribution from the 24-105 and choose accordingly. Even if you persist in using the tripod (I gave mine up years ago, thanks to IBIS), you have 665 grams to play with, plus lighter than 77mm filters you may use on the zoom.

Alongside CV's 21/3.5 (230 grams of goodness), my many-day-trip setup is settling in as: the 35/2 APO (E) and the VM 75/1.5 (Novoflex adapter is 36g). Both are leagues above any consumer zoom. 350 grams and 385 grams respectively (with 49/58mm filters), so a mere 735g or just 70 grams over your current carry. Both are very crop-able on 42mp, to fill in the gaps pretty well. CV lenses have excellent resale too. best, Philip.

Nov 03, 2023 at 11:07 PM

Jeff Kott
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p.3 #7 · Any 1 to 1 comparisons of A7CII to A7CR?

patotts wrote:
Maybe I'm not making myself clear - high MP cameras requires better technique,�..

I must be missing something. Since an APS-C crop from the 61 MP sensor is 26 MP, isn�t the technique to get a sharp photo from the A7CR 61 MP sensor exactly the same as the technique to get a sharp photo from the A6700 26 MP sensor?

Nov 03, 2023 at 11:08 PM

flash
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p.3 #8 · Any 1 to 1 comparisons of A7CII to A7CR?

Jeff Kott wrote:
I must be missing something. Since an APS-C crop from the 61 MP sensor is 26 MP, isn�t the technique to get a sharp photo from the A7CR 61 MP sensor exactly the same as the technique to get a sharp photo from the A6700 26 MP sensor?

Yep. Assuming all else is equal. (IBIS etc...)

Gordon

Nov 03, 2023 at 11:50 PM

bluehawaii
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p.3 #9 · Any 1 to 1 comparisons of A7CII to A7CR?

philip_pj wrote:
Doug, the lenses are going to make the difference, not Sony's latest dream cam for video-oriented street people. Not many zooms are going to stand up across the frame with Sony's highest Mp sensor, and you would give up 25% resolution going with the a7C II. The new cameras are a mere 140 grams lighter than your current body too - big deal.

Far be it to suggest what others should do, but I would keep the a7rIII you have; put the zoom on a shelf, and take two more primes in its place. It's sacrilege to use any zoom over...Show more →

Pairing the 28-60 or even the ZA 24-70/4 with a L21, CV or G20 may be another option for someone wanting a very good wide angle capability. The zoom part of the equation would be a lot cheaper, leaving some cash to invest in a decent prime.

I don't think the 20-70 is sharper in the corners than the similar sized 24-70/4 ZA that shares most of it's optical design.

Nov 04, 2023 at 05:45 AM

Jeff Kott
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p.3 #10 · Any 1 to 1 comparisons of A7CII to A7CR?

I was thinking about my post above and the statement that higher MP sensors �require� better technique. I�ve seen that statement and the equivalent posted on forums ever since we started going from 6 MP sensors to 10 MP sensors and while it may be true in a technical sense, it is misleading and certainly not a reason to purchase a camera with fewer MP.

First of all, the technique being referred to is just what you are doing to avoid camera movement (i.e., shutter speed, hand holding, tripod use and IBIS come into play).

Assuming a good lens or an ok lens used at an optimal aperture for sharpness, the issue for sharpness when viewed at 100% is only indirectly related to MP count, the issue is pixel density. That is why I pointed out above that the technique to stabilize the camera for sharp images is the same for an A7RC and an A6700.

But the point many people miss is if the technique you use to stabilize the sensor is the same for an A7RC and A7Cii and you are using the same lens, the image will never be worse from the A7CR than the A7Cii when the A7CR image is downsampled to be the same MP as the A7Cii. It will never be worse but will often be better.

The only reason that I can see to get a A7Cii rather than the A7CR are cost and file size. Anyone who suggests that it is more difficult to get sharp images from the A7CR than the A7Cii is misleading you.

Nov 04, 2023 at 10:34 AM

foto16
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p.3 #11 · Any 1 to 1 comparisons of A7CII to A7CR?

Jeff Kott wrote:
the image will never be worse from the A7CR than the A7Cii when the A7CR image is downsampled to be the same MP as the A7Cii. It will never be worse but will often be better.

I tend to agree but it's only meaningful if you were comparing two cameras in the same price range. Just "never be worse but will often be better" than the A7CII is not enough for the A7CR. It has to be $800 better, which to many people is not an insignificant amount. If you don't see it in your final output, it's a waste of money. It mainly depends on your final output size (and how much you want to pixel peep), and how much additional real detail you will get, but quantifying it is hard, depending your shooting condition. Some folks will say I don't care about $800 I just want the potential extra flexibility no matter how much (or eliminate the possibility of pixel envy). Sure, the A7CR is for you.

Jeff Kott wrote:
The only reason that I can see to get a A7Cii rather than the A7CR are cost and file size. Anyone who suggests that it is more difficult to get sharp images from the A7CR than the A7Cii is misleading you.

Even if the A7CR requires the same shooting stability/lens quality as the a6700, it doesn't invalidate the argument that "it is more difficult to get sharp images from the A7CR than the A7Cii." Maybe the A7CII requires less shooting discipline/worse lens than BOTH the a6700 and A7CR because it has lower pixel density.

In the end it's a personal choice. Both are unique and stellar cameras. Not many companies make lightweight and corner EVF cameras nowadays. It was a kind of wash between the two for me personally. In the end I went with the A7CII as it already gives me plenty of cropability (and I don't want to buy a FF camera and get M43 results due to cropping), I don't want to spend too much as I have another system, I'm going to mainly use Samyang lenses (instead of GM) with it for the portability, due to a $300 discount from Amazon which widened the price gap, and the hope that the much better EVF and LCD in the A7RV may trickle down to the A7CR II in the next iteration (personally the low res EVF and LCD feel less forgivable in a $3000 camera than a $1800 camera (with the discount)).

Nov 04, 2023 at 11:40 AM

Ghostinz
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p.3 #12 · Any 1 to 1 comparisons of A7CII to A7CR?

tzhang4284 wrote:
I had the Sony A7RV and still have occasional access to a Sony A7C that belongs to my mother for her travels. I would say if you want to use the small Sony lenses, Samyang and/or Sigma lenses - go with the Sony A7C II or even the original Sony A7C. None of those lenses are good enough for the 61mp Sony sensor.

At one point I had both the 40mm f2.5 G which is probably Sony's best small lens and the 35mm f1.4 GM and 50mm f1.2 GM and the image quality differences are noticeable. If you use a GM...Show more →

I did pair my new A7CR with the new 16-35 GMii. I think it balances really well with the new one.

Nov 04, 2023 at 11:54 AM

Jeff Kott
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p.3 #13 · Any 1 to 1 comparisons of A7CII to A7CR?

foto16 wrote:
Even if the A7CR requires the same shooting stability/lens quality as the a6700, it doesn't invalidate the argument that "it is more difficult to get sharp images from the A7CR than the A7Cii." Maybe the A7CII requires less shooting discipline/worse lens than BOTH the a6700 and A7CR because it has lower pixel density.

I tried to explain it above, but your statement is just incorrect. A correct statement that you could make is that when viewing images from the A7CR and A7Cii at 100% (when the A7RC will show greater magnification) you may need more stability to have the 100% view of the A7CR image seemingly as sharp as the 100% view of the A7Cii image. But when viewed at the same size, the A7CR image will never show less detail and will often show more detail than the A7Cii.

For you to say the image has to be $800 better to justify the A7CR is your opinion and goes against the bulk of how consumer products are marketed. For example, is a $10,000 speaker $9,000 better than a $1,000 speaker. Is a $100,000 car $60,000 better than a $40,000 car. This is all subjective and may be a reason for you to make your decision, but not so for other people. I say if someone wants something and they can afford it, go for it. They don�t have to justify anything. And maybe for someone the A7Cii will be as good as the A7CR in 95% of their images. But if they want to pay more for the A7CR for the other 5%, why not?

Nov 04, 2023 at 12:50 PM

chez
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p.3 #14 · Any 1 to 1 comparisons of A7CII to A7CR?

Jeff Kott wrote:
I tried to explain it above, but your statement is just incorrect. A correct statement that you could make is that when viewing images from the A7CR and A7Cii at 100% (when the A7RC will show greater magnification) you may need more stability to have the 100% view of the A7CR image seemingly as sharp as the 100% view of the A7Cii image. But when viewed at the same size, the A7CR image will never show less detail and will often show more detail than the A7Cii.

For you to say the image has to be $800 better to justify...Show more →

I agree with your thoughts. To compare images from both cameras, they must be at equal sizes, not at 100% for each image. For me the ability to print large prints of landscapes and to crop extensively is definitely worth the $800 premium of the A7cr.

Nov 04, 2023 at 01:12 PM

foto16
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p.3 #15 · Any 1 to 1 comparisons of A7CII to A7CR?

At least I understand it this way.

Jeff Kott wrote:
But when viewed at the same size, the A7CR image will never show less detail and will often show more detail than the A7Cii.

I also said I agreed with this statement. But I don't see much point of making this statement in this thread. The whole point of A7RC is to be able to view at NOT the same size, but at a LARGER size, and the whole debate in this thread is about how much is the A7RC better than the A7C (not WHETHER it is better). I said how much better is harder to quantify, depending on shooting conditions.

Jeff Kott wrote:
For you to say the image has to be $800 better to justify the A7CR is your opinion

It's not an opinion. It's a must, unless you spend money without thinking. You have to fork out $800 to buy the A7CR, right? If both the A7CII and A7CR were in the same price range, do you think this thread would have existed in the first place?

Jeff Kott wrote:
I say if someone wants something and they can afford it, go for it. They don�t have to justify anything. And maybe for someone the A7Cii will be as good as the A7CR in 95% of their images. But if they want to pay more for the A7CR for the other 5%, why not?

How does your statement differ from mine: "Some folks will say I don't care about $800 I just want the potential extra flexibility no matter how much (or eliminate the possibility of pixel envy). Sure, the A7CR is for you." "In the end it's a personal choice. Both are unique and stellar cameras"?

It appears to me you feel the need to disagree with my post while in fact you are in agreement. I hope it's not a subconscious need for "justification" and I hope we both enjoy our equipment

Nov 04, 2023 at 01:43 PM

bluehawaii
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p.3 #16 · Any 1 to 1 comparisons of A7CII to A7CR?

The a6700 requires less stabilization input per angle of view than the A7CR.

26mp vs. 61mp.

When focal length is the same it's the same on both but then you're at 1.5x less angle of view on the a6700 vs. A7CR.

I think this is why Leica enabled binning modes on the 61mp M11 which does not have IBIS.

Nov 04, 2023 at 02:07 PM

chez
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p.3 #17 · Any 1 to 1 comparisons of A7CII to A7CR?

foto16 wrote:
I also said I agreed with this statement. But I don't see much point of making this statement in this thread. The whole point of A7RC is to be able to view at NOT the same size, but at a LARGER size, and the whole debate in this thread is about how much is the A7RC better than the A7C (not WHETHER it is better). I said how much better is harder to quantify, depending on shooting conditions.

The flexibility of the A7cr with it�s higher pixel count is that you can make use of those extra pixels when you want such as detailed landscapes off a tripod with very careful focus and you can make use of those extra pixels by cropping when you shoot in conditions where you cannot get the exact composition and need to crop that composition and still have enough pixels left for large prints or photo books.

Whether one feels this flexibility is worth $800 is a personal decision, but I have zero doubt the A7cr can result in better photos under certain shooting conditions.

Nov 04, 2023 at 02:11 PM

offtraildog
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p.3 #18 · Any 1 to 1 comparisons of A7CII to A7CR?

graytrekker wrote:
This has been an interesting read for me and I was hoping for some "resolution" of the debate within my own head. But, alas, no.

I'm an older guy (69) who still actively backpacks. I shoot only landscapes - no video. Additionally, I enjoy astro and the odd night cityscape if I rarely find myself in that environment.

I grew up with Nikon SLRs, not i-phones, like my daughter. She has an A7III and now an A7C and basically disabled the EVFs and composes totally on the back screen. I can't do that. I have an A7RIII and work pretty exclusively through...Show more →

Hi Doug ..
I think I am farther then you from a camera store

I just received the A7CR, E11, 24G and 20-70G I rented from lens rental.
Looking for more dynamic range then my current system.

As you know, we do similar things enough things so figured I would share my experience and opinion.

Most recently I have owned the A7C, A74, A7R4 & A7R5. I loved the A7C size but for me, the EVF was horrible. The EVF on the A7CR is much improved and no longer an issue for me. Works great with my eyeglasses and sun glasses. My current travel/hiking camera is a 5.7 OLED, .83x so a step back in EVF but I rarely need to MF and if so, use Peaking

I actually preferred the A74 over the larger A7R5 since I rarely print larger then 20x30", the DR is almost identical and for my needs, the A7R5 body got bloated with capabilities I don't need.

Not super happy about the size of the 20-70G and that it is F4. As a hiking lens, it will be ok but want something smaller and ideally faster for travel. Nothing like that exists in a compact zoom the Sigma 28-70/2.8 is about the same size and weight and faster but I shoot 24-27 about 20% of the time.

Considered the A6700 with smaller APS-C zooms but no improvement in DR after ISO 300 to what I have

Prefer the simplicity of a zoom but am reconsidering a small set of primes since I could crop 2x to 14.8mp. I have owned just about every modern E-mount prime (AF and MF, Sony, Samyang, Tamron, Sigma, Voitglander, Loxia, Batis) so have a good idea about IQ, etc. and which might work well for my needs .. just need to decide if I want to deal with swapping lens

If I go w/ a zoom as my primary lens, I would be fine with the A7CII resolution and DR since not much cropping ... never had an issues with thousands of A74 images.

BTW - was hiking in my 'hood this am and can see some snow on blacktail and columbia

Nov 04, 2023 at 02:21 PM

graytrekker
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p.3 #19 · Any 1 to 1 comparisons of A7CII to A7CR?

offtraildog wrote:
BTW - was hiking in my 'hood this am and can see some snow on blacktail and columbia

Bill: we should do coffee some time and compare notes

Doug

Nov 04, 2023 at 02:42 PM

j4nu
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p.3 #20 · Any 1 to 1 comparisons of A7CII to A7CR?

I have a kinda off question, did anyone compare the size of CII/CR EVF to zoomed-out EVF of A1/A7RV ?

Nov 04, 2023 at 02:59 PM

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