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Lightroom Classic 13 AI bokeh feature

  
 
RoamingScott
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Lightroom Classic 13 AI bokeh feature


Figured I'd shout this out, as it is quite good even in its early preview state.

As an example, I shot some players and had a pretty terrible background to work with based on the light. Here is a before and after of the new simulated bokeh feature maxed out. Much cleaner transitions than say iOS portrait mode. They even offer different styles of blades so you can give your Plena some much needed cats eye One thing it does NOT handle well is multiple humans at varying depths of focus...it will not apply extra blur to an already out of focus human in the background, which ends up making the final product look out of sorts.

There are a few spots where you can see artifacts (left side of jersey by waist, there is a big yellow bokeh blob for no reason), but overall, promising start! Adobe has been on the ball with refining new features quickly.

original:







simulated bokeh at 100%








Oct 11, 2023 at 11:21 AM
SCoombs
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Lightroom Classic 13 AI bokeh feature


I wrote about this elsewhere to say that the lens blur tool is the first one of these AI tools that really sort of troubles or bothers me. I think this is because - no pun intended - it seems to me that it really starts to blur the lines between what is authentic and what isn't, or maybe more to the point between what is truly "of the artist" and what is from a machine.

Let me acknowledge off the bat that in some contexts, especially commercial ones, this may not matter. I'm not really commenting on those.

Previously, you could use AI to do a few things, one of which was inserting new elements in a photo. This is a pretty clear line: if you're concerned with the authenticity of a photo, you're not going to want totally new things inserted into it. Or, if you see a photo you know had something inserted by AI, you know that the photo is ultimately the work of a machine. This can also apply to removing things using AI by generating a background.

Now I think there may be at least some gray area here when we're talking about very small things. I don't consider a photo any less the work of the artist if someone removes a twig from a photo (though maybe it does bother you). It doesn't bother me that much if someone extends the edge of a frame by 5% or something by generating a background. It would make me look at the photo differently if someone removed a whole bunch of foliage and generated a third of a bird to fill in the gaps. It would make me look differently if someone extended a frame by 50% and added a whole background scene in there.

I think what it comes down to is whether the final product represents a photo that is substantially the same as the original, or if they're creating something of an entirely different character. A minor extension of the edge to give a subject more headroom or make the composition look slightly better is the sort of thing that could easily be something as natural as the difference between the VR element re-entering before a shot and slightly changing the framing from the original. A change like this doesn't bother me because the final product has the same essential character as the original. Most people would look at the two photos and say, "that's basically the same photo it's just framed slightly differently." The same applies to a photo with and without the single twig in the way.

I'm not saying that there's no element of skill involved in getting that composition perfect in the first place or getting the bird without the twig in the original image. There can be, but ultimately I see the difference as so minor that it doesn't strike me as "no longer the same photo."

Having played with it a bit, I think this new tool makes that line a lot less clear. I am not at so I can't share it now, but earlier I took an old shot of a heron in flight which was always pretty mediocre and blurred the background and it's like a totally different photo. I think most on this forum know that for a skilled photographer figuring out the background is often first and foremost even before considering the subject. It's that important - so being able to take just about any background and turn it into a great background is, to me, often going to really completely change an image to the point where it's really just not the same photo.

On the other hand, there's a degree to which someone might reasonably say that this is just sortof functioning as an extension of a photographer's equipment and is giving them the chance to do in post what they already would have intentionally done in the field if they weren't prevented by economics. I can't afford an f/2.8 telephotos lens, but if I could, I'd have one and that heron would have been photographed with that nice background in the first place, so did I really change my photo's character, or did I just get the equivalent of a much more affordable fast aperture?

These sorts of dynamics and questions leave me feeling pretty uncomfortable about how to view photography in a way other advancements haven't.



Oct 11, 2023 at 12:02 PM
RoamingScott
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Lightroom Classic 13 AI bokeh feature


Without diving totally into "AI ethics", as it stands today you do need to be somewhat skilled to use these tools in a way that accurately emulates the effect it's trying to achieve.

Someday, though, there will just be an easy button that takes your crooked, underexposed shot, replaces the background, gives it an f/1.2 bokeh, touches up the skin, and posts it to your socials for you in one click.

I don't get too hung up on "is this photo the way it really was" because just by shooting RAW, any amount of post processing is inserting my taste into the image. It will never be captured and re-represented just as I saw it in the moment.

I care FAR less about tools that add a little blur to an image than tools that replace your sky, for example.



Oct 11, 2023 at 12:11 PM
Justin.opr
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Lightroom Classic 13 AI bokeh feature


I feel like I should be hesitant to embrace these types of tools being added. But then I remember people have been "photoshopping" for years in the dark room. I know that takes a lot of knowledge and practice to get right but it is still the same thing.

I am of the mindset now to just let people do what they want to do and not get bothered by it. They are having fun and that's all that matters.



Oct 11, 2023 at 01:44 PM
SCoombs
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Lightroom Classic 13 AI bokeh feature


Justin.opr wrote:
I feel like I should be hesitant to embrace these types of tools being added. But then I remember people have been "photoshopping" for years in the dark room. I know that takes a lot of knowledge and practice to get right but it is still the same thing.


Interesting thought because to me there's a difference between a person putting a lot of knowledge and practice into doing something themselves with Photoshop vs. just pressing a button and Photoshop does it all on its own without the human being having any agency in the process.



Oct 11, 2023 at 01:56 PM
snapsy
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Lightroom Classic 13 AI bokeh feature


SCoombs wrote:
I wrote about this elsewhere to say that the lens blur tool is the first one of these AI tools that really sort of troubles or bothers me. I think this is because - no pun intended - it seems to me that it really starts to blur the lines between what is authentic and what isn't, or maybe more to the point between what is truly "of the artist" and what is from a machine.

Let me acknowledge off the bat that in some contexts, especially commercial ones, this may not matter. I'm not really commenting on those.

Previously, you could
...Show more

I consider myself conservative when it comes to what I consider ethical in modifying a photo. Thinking outside myself though I'm not sure post-processed blur is really all that different from optical bur in terms of what represents reality - they're both artificial constructs that don't represent how humans would observe the actual scene.



Oct 11, 2023 at 02:09 PM
Justin.opr
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Lightroom Classic 13 AI bokeh feature


SCoombs wrote:
Interesting thought because to me there's a difference between a person putting a lot of knowledge and practice into doing something themselves with Photoshop vs. just pressing a button and Photoshop does it all on its own without the human being having any agency in the process.


There is definitely a difference between the two. But I am all about photography being inclusive to everyone and these new tools can allow someone to create what they wanted to create but couldn't because those f1.2 lenses are so expensive. Something you mentioned as well.

The topic of AI has been going around a lot within the community I am a part of as well. The general consensus is having a negative as proof that the photo is real may become a more in-demand thing. I know it is for major competitions. (or raw files)

We are either doing photography for ourselves. In which case who cares if anyone is using these tools. Or we are doing photography for money in which case it is all about the client. Maybe these tools give you an advantage with your clients, maybe not. I guess that is when the personable and stylistic interactions with a client will really start to matter.

In the end all of that knowledge and practice has been offloaded onto software engineers. Fortunately or unfortunately these tools are not going any where and are only going to get more advanced.

I wonder what these tools will do to the big companies though. You essentially no longer need to purchase their super expensive lenses to get that look. The example posted looks really great, I can't even tell its AI if I wasn't told.



Oct 11, 2023 at 02:30 PM
Jepser
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Lightroom Classic 13 AI bokeh feature


One effect of the A.I. development is that I shoot way more film than I did five or ten years ago.


Oct 11, 2023 at 02:39 PM
Eric214
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Lightroom Classic 13 AI bokeh feature


I don't see an issue with this. I have issues with sky replacements and adding things to make an image look like what want there.

I don't see this any differently really than making exposure or color corrections. Shooting in raw, you always need to make corrections in post as raw images are inherently a touch soft SOOC and needing a few other adjustments.

What i do see is people spending top dollar for 400f2.8 or 600f4 primes or other f1.2 over f1.8 lenses for that bokeh going to be pissed.

Though I do agree that at this point, if you can get a sharp shoot, gear is really meaning less and less as people can just create it fix their images in post without nearly as much skill behind the camera. The real separation of truly skilled photographers still exist but that distinction is becoming not and more blurred (pun intended)



Oct 11, 2023 at 02:52 PM
RoamingScott
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Lightroom Classic 13 AI bokeh feature


Why is being skilled at post processing a distinction away from being a skilled photographer? It's part of the process. You'll never get a JPEG straight out of camera with as much detail and dynamic range as you will from a well edited RAW.


Oct 11, 2023 at 02:58 PM
 


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flash
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Lightroom Classic 13 AI bokeh feature


All of this stuff has always been possible. It's just getting easier to implement. Photographers like Adams pushed the available tech much further than others and some called their work fake. Now they're classics.

Now it's just becoming easier and easier. That's the only real change. Personally I don't really care and I've never really trusted images on-line without alternate sources. But if you think Fox News is the new bible then you'll likely see a lot of this type of stuff, used for not always honest intent.

But adding a bit of blur is nothing more than buying another lens that's big and expensive and I have no issues adding a bit of blur to a family snap to enhance how that moment felt when I shot it.

As I move away from being a working shooter I do feel bad for anyone just entering the industry. That's going to be a hard gig versus AI.

Gordon



Oct 11, 2023 at 03:04 PM
Eric214
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Lightroom Classic 13 AI bokeh feature


RoamingScott wrote:
Why is being skilled at post processing a distinction away from being a skilled photographer? It's part of the process. You'll never get a JPEG straight out of camera with as much detail and dynamic range as you will from a well edited RAW.


For me it's not at all other then changing what was there like a sky replacement or adding things. Post is as much as anything if you are shooting Raw like i mentioned above. So I am with you overall



Oct 11, 2023 at 04:00 PM
Jepser
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Lightroom Classic 13 AI bokeh feature


I'm unaware of that critique against Ansel Adams, is there any read you can point me to?

I dont work as a photograper either, but I rarely do anything in post that I wouldnt do, or have someone do in the lab. The thing that brings me joy is the photo-moment with the camera. Maybe explained by that I spend my working days teaching the Adobe-suite to quite noisy teenagers...



Oct 11, 2023 at 04:13 PM
achillesgr
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Lightroom Classic 13 AI bokeh feature


Reading the post and i thought the first photo was the simulated bokeh! its already great and pleasing to see! The simulated bokeh looks a little unrealistic for a somewhat trained eye , like you have a small object shot by a telephoto lens that obliterates the background, not normal for a person sizewise. I tried it to enhance group people photos and wasn't so good in the hair area only. I wonder why this feature was so late to come, and why is not perfect yet. Theoreteicaly the parts of image that acquire focus (from the taking the shot time) have more contrast to the background ,if you have an aperture lets say f4 and higher.So I would expect it would be easy for a 2023 chatgpt era to enhance the blur in the non focus area. Its like making a mask in lightroom for the person, then reverse the mask and lower the clarity and sharpness ,so to blur the background...



Oct 11, 2023 at 04:30 PM
flash
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Lightroom Classic 13 AI bokeh feature


Jepser wrote:
I'm unaware of that critique against Ansel Adams, is there any read you can point me to?

I dont work as a photograper either, but I rarely do anything in post that I wouldnt do, or have someone do in the lab. The thing that brings me joy is the photo-moment with the camera. Maybe explained by that I spend my working days teaching the Adobe-suite to quite noisy teenagers...


I'd really have to go back. I'm old.. But basically *Winter Sunrise* and a few others had elements in the scene spotted out completely because Adams didn't like them. On occasion he permanently altered the film as well.

And there are others. Steve McCurry?? Debate still surrounds whether The Fallen Soldier by Capa was staged... AI has started a debate to honesty in photography. But often it never was.

All I'm saying is this isn't new. It's just easier.

Gordon

p.s. When I was a full time working shooter I thought nothing about removing or replacing elements in a scene. I wasn't a journo. I was a commercial and wedding photographer. I made pretty photos. Not always accurate ones.



Oct 11, 2023 at 05:39 PM
swifty168
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Lightroom Classic 13 AI bokeh feature


If AI sharpening is acceptable then I guess AI blurring should probably be too. Although I do understand the resistance to it.
If it helps in a pinch, sure.. but it isn’t a substitute for optical results. Same goes for sharpening.



Oct 11, 2023 at 05:51 PM
ahinesdesign
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Lightroom Classic 13 AI bokeh feature


achillesgr wrote:
Reading the post and i thought the first photo was the simulated bokeh! its already great and pleasing to see! The simulated bokeh looks a little unrealistic for a somewhat trained eye , like you have a small object shot by a telephoto lens that obliterates the background, not normal for a person sizewise. I tried it to enhance group people photos and wasn't so good in the hair area only. I wonder why this feature was so late to come, and why is not perfect yet. Theoreteicaly the parts of image that acquire focus (from the taking the shot
...Show more

I thought the same thing also, that the first image featured the simulated bokeh until I scrolled down further...

Enhancing existing blur where you already have pretty clear subject and background separation seems like low hanging fruit. I wonder how LR would have handled the example photo in the original post if the background had not been well out of focus to begin with? I have been surprised at how well LR's "AI" masking features work (and also surprised at times when they fail on what should be easy applications) but creating a believable transition zone for depth of field is far more difficult that just feathering the edge of the mask.

I suppose this is a great way to make busy bokeh images from a budget-friendly lens look like they were captured with more expensive f/1.4 or f/1.2 glass...



Oct 11, 2023 at 07:34 PM
akul
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Lightroom Classic 13 AI bokeh feature


RoamingScott wrote:
Figured I'd shout this out, as it is quite good even in its early preview state.

As an example, I shot some players and had a pretty terrible background to work with based on the light. Here is a before and after of the new simulated bokeh feature maxed out. Much cleaner transitions than say iOS portrait mode. They even offer different styles of blades so you can give your Plena some much needed cats eye One thing it does NOT handle well is multiple humans at varying depths of focus...it will not apply extra blur to an already out
...Show more

I mean, who needs a Plena!!



Oct 11, 2023 at 08:11 PM
RoamingScott
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Lightroom Classic 13 AI bokeh feature


ahinesdesign wrote:
Enhancing existing blur where you already have pretty clear subject and background separation seems like low hanging fruit. I wonder how LR would have handled the example photo in the original post if the background had not been well out of focus to begin with? I have been surprised at how well LR's "AI" masking features work (and also surprised at times when they fail on what should be easy applications) but creating a believable transition zone for depth of field is far more difficult that just feathering the edge of the mask.


I tried it with a variety of images...the best use case is definitely taking F4ish bokeh and making it look like F2.8.

If your source file is F8 and you try to get it to F1.2, it will look bad and obvious. It also has no idea what foreground blurring is, so if your image has an in-focus foreground, nothing there gets blurred and that gives it away immediately.

If you feed it a file with good bokeh like I did, it has a way easier time "finding" the existing transition zone and augmenting it vs having to sus out an image where everything is in focus.



Oct 12, 2023 at 07:14 AM
BPsmith511
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Lightroom Classic 13 AI bokeh feature


RoamingScott wrote:
I tried it with a variety of images...the best use case is definitely taking F4ish bokeh and making it look like F2.8.

If your source file is F8 and you try to get it to F1.2, it will look bad and obvious. It also has no idea what foreground blurring is, so if your image has an in-focus foreground, nothing there gets blurred and that gives it away immediately.

If you feed it a file with good bokeh like I did, it has a way easier time "finding" the existing transition zone and augmenting it vs having to sus out an image
...Show more

Have you tried altering the generated depth mask with the brush tools to add/subtract foreground blur yet?



Oct 12, 2023 at 07:56 AM
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