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Archive 2023 · WSJ Article - Swapping Heads, Adding blue Clouds... Fauxtography

Scott Stoness
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · WSJ Article - Swapping Heads, Adding blue Clouds... Fauxtography

There is a great article in the Wall Street Journal on AI editing. There’s even name it: “fauxtography.” It easy with new phone and coming soon to fredmiranda?

https://www.wsj.com/tech/personal-tech/smiling-kids-gorgeous-sunsets-is-it-photo-editing-or-just-plain-lying-ed5b9c1d?mod=wsjhp_columnists_pos1

It shows examples where multiple shots are taken and then you pick the best of 3 best head expressions, in the same picture.

It shows examples where blue sky are swapped in to make it look like noon.

It shows examples where people are removed in beach shots.

I guess I has fallen behind. I keep hiking 15km in the dark with a heavy weight, risking bear attacks, to return to spots where the clouds could have been just a little different at sunrise.

I am primarily a nature landscape and big animal photographer (bears, moose, wolves,...). I am not tempted to AI because my joy is the adventure of pursing the pictures.[ I do use HDR often blended with single image to compensate for low dynamic range because my measure is could it have been done in the dark room and does it make it look closer to what my eyes see - one shot images are not realistic without nd grads and much editing.I also occasionally remove a dot of a person or power line.]

For travel shots [that I care less about but do to make my wife happy], even when I go to Trevi square at 4am, there are too many people - thats tempting - because you just cannot be left alone anymore because of instragram.

It is also tempting at Moraine Lake [the jewel of the Banff Park photography] because you can no longer get a picture without some pretty underdressed girl posing on a rock in front of you, for her instagram shot. I have not visited in 3 years now. Some of my other places are at risk (Peyto lookout, Lake Louise, Two Jack Lake) of impossible to shoot without such editing (and being trampled to bits as well).

Anyway this has been discussed in previous posts. I am just surprised how good AI has become. It's a good thing that I like photography for adventure, not for a job - because it's getting really easy to be good at photography without photography skills.

Maybe we need to demand a disclaimer in our posts. Mine would be "Poster often uses editing techniques for landscape which in his opinion would be possible in the dark room with film and occasionally removes items like small stray garbage and small dots of people"

Scott

Oct 05, 2023 at 09:12 AM

amacal1
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · WSJ Article - Swapping Heads, Adding blue Clouds... Fauxtography

Scott Stoness wrote:
... and coming soon to fredmiranda?

Coming soon? It's already been here for a while, brother.

If you've been to the "People" forum anytime in the last 5-8 years you've probably seen more of this than you realize. Tools like PortraitPro have been super popular for armchair portrait photographers and pros, alike, for years and years now. The standard settings are really easy to spot, there's a certain look to the WB and a certain "lens flare" that gets added by default that you can spot from a mile away. Ever notice how a suspicious number of family portaits have a nice sunset-looking lens flare on the same side at the same angle everywhere you see such pictures? Yeah. But it also comes with an easy to use toolkit of replacement backgrounds, digital "props", and tools for fixing facial features and outright replacing heads/faces. This is nothing new that people haven't been doing for decades in photoshop, but PortraitPro, especially, was aimed at the armchair/soccer-mom portrait photographers and made it stupid easy to do all of that. You've probably seen far more of those pics here on FM than you realize. I've seen enough examples on here and facebook, and I find the standard settings pretty bad, and the "punched up" settings are, frankly, nauseating. But, when dialed down a little and used more tastefully, it does seem to do a pretty decent job at giving a pretty polished look for people that would otherwise have a much harder job getting such a look in Photoshop or lightroom.

Lightroom has all of these tools (and more) in their latest releases, including full-AI, push-a-button-to-replace-the-sky tools. It's already here. You've already seen the pictures on FM, likely. You've definitely seen the pictures elsewhere without realizing it.

Edited on Oct 05, 2023 at 10:31 AM · View previous versions

Oct 05, 2023 at 09:26 AM

Jeff Nolten
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · WSJ Article - Swapping Heads, Adding blue Clouds... Fauxtography

There is a Verge article this morning that Adobe is soon to release a Photoshop editing tool that automatically finds objects in your photos and suggests modifications.

All of the examples Scott mentions above are already doable in Photoshop or have been with some work for a while now. Replace sky, context aware fill, etc. They are useful tools unless you are trying to commit fraud.

A couple of examples I've done. Years ago I took a series of images from the granite dome above Tuolumne Meadows to stitch into a panorama. The landscape worked fine but the sky retained color/shading variations. I used Photoshop's replace sky feature to put in a similar cloud scattered sky to fix the image and make it useable.

This year at ComicCon one of the vendors put up space backdrops for cosplayers to pose in front of. Unfortunately they used those airport style retractable barriers to protect the backdrops. I got a nice clean image of a Star Wars Sith Lord by using context aware fill to replace the barrier with a nice recreation of the obstructed backdrop.

A new feature would identify and remove out of focus background people. Pretty handy in this increasingly crowded world.

Oct 05, 2023 at 10:16 AM

AmbientMike
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · WSJ Article - Swapping Heads, Adding blue Clouds... Fauxtography

Seriously though I don't see most of the AI software even being feasible unless they rip off photographer's photos online. Most financial incentive seems based in theft

They almost certainly couldn't pay artists a living wage and make money on their AI photo editing software

Then, to top it off, it puts photographers out of work

Oct 05, 2023 at 12:06 PM

Jeff Nolten
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · WSJ Article - Swapping Heads, Adding blue Clouds... Fauxtography

AmbientMike wrote:
Seriously though I don't see most of the AI software even being feasible unless they rip off photographer's photos online. Any financial incentive
seems based in theft

They almost certainly couldn't pay artists a living wage and make money on their AI photo editing software

Then, to top it off, it puts photographers out of work

I don't understand what you are saying here. AI software basically relies on machine learning based on many samples that I'm sure Adobe or Topaz already have access to. There is probably enough public domain imagery out there that they wouldn't need to steal pictures to feed their training algorithms.

These techniques make it simpler for less skilled folks to make better looking images. It shouldn't put artists out of work any more than other automation techniques have since the industrial revolution began. I'd guess the development of digital photography has increased the number of professional photographers. The very software engineers who developed AI techniques are probably more threatened professionally than professional photographers. If you are referring to film actors being replaced digitally, that is a different matter that needs handling by contracts, unions, and other legal avenues. New technology always has ramifications and I'm not making light of those.

Oct 05, 2023 at 12:25 PM

AmbientMike
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · WSJ Article - Swapping Heads, Adding blue Clouds... Fauxtography

Jeff Nolten wrote:
I don't understand what you are saying here. AI software basically relies on machine learning based on many samples that I'm sure Adobe or Topaz already have access to. There is probably enough public domain imagery out there that they wouldn't need to steal pictures to feed their training algorithms.

These techniques make it simpler for less skilled folks to make better looking images. It shouldn't put artists out of work any more than other automation techniques have since the industrial revolution began. I'd guess the development of digital photography has increased the number of professional photographers. The very...Show more →

On the Northrup video, the AI software generated security features people put on their photos. Yes, they are apparently ripping off photos, and I don't think their business model works, in general, if they don't. Burying permissions in TOS isn't much better.

There might be more people trying to be pros since digital, but mostly digital seems to have sucked a lot of the money out of it. A lot less serious pros making a living

Oct 05, 2023 at 01:08 PM

Jeff Nolten
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · WSJ Article - Swapping Heads, Adding blue Clouds... Fauxtography

If people are using AI commit fraud that isn't right and shouldn't be legal. I agree.

Oct 05, 2023 at 02:48 PM

macwest
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · WSJ Article - Swapping Heads, Adding blue Clouds... Fauxtography

best use for Ai is auto focus,

Oct 05, 2023 at 03:27 PM

Abbott Schindl
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · WSJ Article - Swapping Heads, Adding blue Clouds... Fauxtography

Scott Stoness wrote:
It is also tempting at Moraine Lake [the jewel of the Banff Park photography] because you can no longer get a picture without some pretty underdressed girl posing on a rock in front of you, for her instagram shot. I have not visited in 3 years now. Some of my other places are at risk (Peyto lookout, Lake Louise, Two Jack Lake) of impossible to shoot without such editing (and being trampled to bits as well).

Sad to see you say this. I love Moraine Lake and it's a shame that it's apparently being treated as just another place for a selfie.

Oct 05, 2023 at 03:59 PM

armd
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · WSJ Article - Swapping Heads, Adding blue Clouds... Fauxtography

I appreciate the angst, and as an old fart I perceive everything to be a mess.

In fact, I'm going to start an OT vent about Fedex. The company is in complete shambles and is worse than UPS and USPS. This month I had a $7k lens sent back overnight shipping along with a body which I had out for repair. I had paid for the express service as I had an upcoming trip and wanted to take the lens. After waiting all day at home, I received a text from Fedex stating that the packages were delivered. Interesting, I thought as I have motion cameras on my place and none of them had been activated plus the packages required a signature for delivery. Peering out my windows, I noticed two packages tucked away on a corner of my porch. According to Fedex, someone signed for them (not my or my neighbors names) and I noticed that one package was addressed to me while the other one was for a medical company in another zip code. Ok, so the camera body arrived but not the lens and Fedex indicated that both packages were delivered.

Fedex, has zero customer service and after emails and numerous phone calls, I still couldn't reach anyone with any knowledge. CPS, took no responsibility though they said that they would try to contact Fedex. Well, I went on the trip (no big white in hand) with just the 100-500 and after a week and a half, a package mysteriously shows up on my doorstep - it's my lens - though again the cameras weren't activated and Fedex indicated that I signed for it. Another lie, but I am fortunate to have received the lens at all.

Part of the irony was that I tried to send the box with medical supplies to the rightful address though Fedex wouldn't accept the package. They said that it was delivered and I would have to pay to have the box shipped! Fortunately, there was a phone number on the carton and I made sure that the products made it to where they were needed.

Fast forward to today, when I was expecting a delivery of some products from a print supply company. Two boxes were supposed to be delivered. So, I received a notice from Fedex that I authorized a diversion of the package to an alternative pick up location and that the packages were there (I did no such thing, but whatever). After a trip to the drop off point, they could only find one package though they requested that I sign for both. Of course, I wouldn't so, I walked out of there with zero supplies, a stomach full of frustration, and a few choice expletives for my friends at Fedex. Now, I'll miss a deadline on a project and will have to explain the situation to the recipient. Fedex is garbage. Rant off and I'm sorry to hijack the thread.

Oct 05, 2023 at 05:11 PM

JohnDoe5512
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · WSJ Article - Swapping Heads, Adding blue Clouds... Fauxtography

Generative fill is invaluable for cleaning up the backgrounds when shooting sports:

https://pqtest-08-27-2022.s3.amazonaws.com/2023-08-06-BVB-DOMINO-0027-original.JPG

https://pqtest-08-27-2022.s3.amazonaws.com/2023-08-06-BVB-DOMINO-0027.JPG

Took me about 5 minutes to clean it up. Tell me which version you like better.

Yes, I am aware I can't present it as documentary photo (or have it published in the paper) and I am OK with that.

Oct 05, 2023 at 07:54 PM

Imagemaster
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · WSJ Article - Swapping Heads, Adding blue Clouds... Fauxtography

Abbott Schindl wrote:
Sad to see you say this. I love Moraine Lake and it's a shame that it's apparently being treated as just another place for a selfie.

It is happening at thousands of places around the world and will continue to worsen because population growth will continue.

Population growth is the most serious problem on this planet that man could control, but won’t.

Oct 05, 2023 at 08:17 PM

armd
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · WSJ Article - Swapping Heads, Adding blue Clouds... Fauxtography

JohnDoe5512 wrote:
Generative fill is invaluable for cleaning up the backgrounds when shooting sports:

https://pqtest-08-27-2022.s3.amazonaws.com/2023-08-06-BVB-DOMINO-0027-original.jpg

https://pqtest-08-27-2022.s3.amazonaws.com/2023-08-06-BVB-DOMINO-0027.jpg

Took me about 5 minutes to clean it up. Tell me which version you like better.

Yes, I am aware I can't present it as documentary photo (or have it published in the paper) and I am OK with that.

I like the version where the pole isn’t sticking out of the girl. Wait, that wasn’t an option.

Oct 05, 2023 at 09:09 PM

Peter Figen
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · WSJ Article - Swapping Heads, Adding blue Clouds... Fauxtography

I started replacing heads close to forty years ago but we did it a little differently back then. I'd make a 16x20 or larger print from both negatives, then cut out the new head with an Exacto as close as possible, then I would sand the paper backing on the edges, feathering the backing of the cutout right down to the emulsion so there would be no visible panty line and then finally re-photograph the new composite onto a new 4x5 neg.

Or, sometimes I would have an illustrator airbrush a new gradated background of a product shot which we would then copy photographically and print from that.

Or, there would be times I'd have three or four view cameras set up in the studio and move the film from camera to camera to camera after sketching the final composition on the ground glass so as to not overlap the different exposures.

All that is a bit easier these days.

Oct 05, 2023 at 09:18 PM

Zenon Char
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · WSJ Article - Swapping Heads, Adding blue Clouds... Fauxtography

Jeff Nolten wrote:
If people are using AI commit fraud that isn't right and shouldn't be legal. I agree.

They will and it will be rampant. These days almost twice a week the news shows how people are getting scammed with all types of schemes.

Oct 05, 2023 at 09:43 PM

Imagemaster
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · WSJ Article - Swapping Heads, Adding blue Clouds... Fauxtography

Jeff Nolten wrote:
If people are using AI commit fraud that isn't right and shouldn't be legal. I agree.

Even when it is illegal, it will still be done in increasing numbers by an increasing number of people. The logistics of trying to sue someone in China or Russia because they used a piece of your photograph in their composite image makes that futile.

Oct 05, 2023 at 10:15 PM

Alan Kefauver
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · WSJ Article - Swapping Heads, Adding blue Clouds... Fauxtography

Imagemaster wrote:
Even when it is illegal, it will still be done in increasing numbers by an increasing number of people. The logistics of trying to sue someone in China or Russia because they used a piece of your photograph in their composite image makes that futile.

Yeah, not photographic, but someone in China copied my audio engineering book verbatim into Chinese, put their name on it and sold it in China and other parts of Asia. Nothing I could do about it. Lots of lost revenue to me. Lawyers said "feget about it."

Oct 06, 2023 at 08:40 AM

JohnDoe5512
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · WSJ Article - Swapping Heads, Adding blue Clouds... Fauxtography

armd wrote:
I like the version where the pole isn’t sticking out of the girl. Wait, that wasn’t an option.

Actually I did try to remove it, it didn't work well on the 1st try and I called it good.

Oct 06, 2023 at 08:52 AM

Jeff Nolten
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · WSJ Article - Swapping Heads, Adding blue Clouds... Fauxtography

armd wrote:
I appreciate the angst, and as an old fart I perceive everything to be a mess.

Imagemaster wrote:
Population growth is the most serious problem on this planet that man could control, but won’t.

Zenon Char wrote:
These days almost twice a week the news shows how people are getting scammed with all types of schemes.

So, lets see
AI is stealing our money and jobs, and may send terminators to kill us,
Gene editing is either going to change us as a species or make us all clones,
Global warming is killing our crops and coasts,
Pandemics are just killing us,
Politicians are turning the US into a third world dictatorship, or bringing back the inquisition, or making us all woke, take your pick,
Putin is threatening nuclear holocaust,
There is a super volcano under Yellowstone overdue for mass eruption,
The current extinction event started 1.5 million years ago with Homo erectus.

As an old fart I can say that I agree, but its been like this all my life. And before that there were world wars, the European invasion of the Americas, and Romans, Greeks, Phoenicians, etc. And China has always been there. Human existence has always been a struggle. Today, marauders call you on the phone or send text messages or invade your computers as well as more traditional methods.

"Eternal vigilance or eternal peace" a Navy NATOPS poster.

"You got to do what you can and let mother nature do the rest." Jim Steinman/Meatloaf

Or as my spiritual guru the late great Jimmy Buffet says, "You only have two choices, having fun or freaking out"

Photography should be fun.

Oct 06, 2023 at 10:09 AM

AmbientMike
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · WSJ Article - Swapping Heads, Adding blue Clouds... Fauxtography

Jeff Nolten wrote:

So, lets see
AI is stealing our money and jobs, and may send terminators to kill us,
Gene editing is either going to change us as a species or make us all clones,
Global warming is killing our crops and coasts,
Pandemics are just killing us,
Politicians are turning the US into a third world dictatorship, or bringing back the inquisition, or making us all woke, take your pick,
Putin is threatening nuclear holocaust,
There is a super volcano under Yellowstone overdue for mass eruption,
The current extinction event started 1.5 million years ago with Homo erectus.

As an old fart I can say that I agree, but...Show more →

Didn't mean to get you too upset over it but I mean they probably have bots combing the Internet and grabbing images to feed the AI to teach it photography. Frustrating, and I don't think it is economically viable if they pay pro photographers.

One post on fb mentioned all the issues years ago, I mean, you had WW1, WW2, & the Great Depression in a span of <20 years. after that Korean War, Vietnam dragged on, etc. So always something I guess

Oct 06, 2023 at 01:03 PM

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