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Archive 2023 · Canon R6 and rolling shutter

pulper11
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Canon R6 and rolling shutter

After using electronic first curtain exclusively for all my sports shooting with the R6 (b/c of rolling shutter), I decided to give electronic shutter another try on my R6 for a college hockey game. It was an exhibition game and I figured it was worth the try.

It was mostly b/c of @rscheffler posting previously that he uses his R6ii in electronic shutter mode b/c the blackout with EFCS is difficult for him. I had noticed recently while shooting football games that this was driving me crazy - that I couldn't keep up with the players b/c of the blackout - so I figured I'd try this to see the difference.

The viewfinder was so much easier to use. Night and day. However, I'm still concerned with rolling shutter.

I'm not sure if these pictures are showing rolling shutter or not, but they seem a bit off to me. However, I've also shot using the Sony A9 where players seemed a little compressed, for lack of a better word.

Let me know what you think.

Here's one of the photos from the R6 that could be good if it didn't have an "off" look to it:

https://photobybarnick.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/MG_4152-scaled.jpg

In comparison, here's a picture from the A9 (stacked sensor) that shows a "compressed" player. It shouldn't have rolling shutter so perhaps this compressed view isn't a problem. This is Brock Purdy from Iowa State:

https://photobybarnick.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Iowa-State-Football-QB-Brock-Purdy-running-avoiding-sack.jpg

If you don't mind, please take a look at more of my shots from the game and let me know if you see rolling shutter being a nuisance in these shots:

https://photobybarnick.com/michigan-vs-simon-fraser-hockey/

I do this as a hobby while I try to build up my portfolio. I'm contemplating going for the R6ii or even the R3.

Thanks for reading!

Oct 03, 2023 at 09:22 PM

Ferrophot
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Canon R6 and rolling shutter

I don't see any curved vertical lines that are a symptom of rolling shutter. There also doesn't seem to be any strange artifacts so my guess is that there are no problems with using electronic shutter for this game. I think rolling shutter problems are dependent of the speed of the subject. The compression effect you are seeing might be the result of telephoto compression. Our brain expects to see the objects further back smaller than they appear in the image, hence we perceive the front player smaller, even though if we look at the lengths the front player is clearly longer. I run up against this often when photographing trains with telephoto lenses, especially as the focal length increases.

Oct 03, 2023 at 09:52 PM

pulper11
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Canon R6 and rolling shutter

Ferrophot wrote:
I don't see any curved vertical lines that are a symptom of rolling shutter. There also doesn't seem to be any strange artifacts so my guess is that there are no problems with using electronic shutter for this game. I think rolling shutter problems are dependent of the speed of the subject. The compression effect you are seeing might be the result of telephoto compression. Our brain expects to see the objects further back smaller than they appear in the image, hence we perceive the front player smaller, even though if we look at the lengths the front player is...Show more →

Thanks for the reply and reading my post!
I do know that rolling shutter can also happen by quick movement of the camera while shooting (I've seen it before on stationary objects when vertical lines in the background are skewed). Of course, in a hockey game, I'm moving the camera quickly quite often!
Nevertheless, your comment encourages me to keep going with this. I appreciate it!

Oct 03, 2023 at 10:02 PM

justashooter
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Canon R6 and rolling shutter

I don't see any rolling shutter issues with these images. You are going to see rolling shutter issues with fast moving objects such as slap shots, batting, pitchers hands will distort at the end of their pitch, golf swings, etc. I don't shoot enough slap shots in hockey to worry about it, and don't shoot golf, so I shoot everything with electronic shutter except baseball. I use mechanical shutter for that. The verticals in the background using electronic shutter don't distort enough to bother me. I shoot with a R6 Mark II.

Oct 03, 2023 at 10:14 PM

Zenon Char
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Canon R6 and rolling shutter

I don't see any either but in an R7 Duade Patons explains warping you can get from your movement. Start at 14:45

Canon EOS R7 RF100-500mm F4.5-7.1 L IS USM + EXTENDER RF1.4x lens 700mm f/10.0 1/3200s 1600 ISO 0.0 EV

Canon EOS R6m2 RF100-500mm F4.5-7.1 L IS USM + EXTENDER RF1.4x lens 700mm f/10.0 1/6400s 2500 ISO 0.0 EV

Oct 03, 2023 at 10:24 PM

jedibrain
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Canon R6 and rolling shutter

Shooting soccer in ES only. I only see rolling shutter on the ball - which turns egg shaped - right off the foot (its fastest speed), and occasionally on the leg at certain moments in a place kick. I'd say maybe 3% of frames. The ball more often, but its rarely distracting to the point you'd notice it if you weren't really looking for it.

I too don't see much if any rolling shutter in your shots.

Brian

Oct 04, 2023 at 07:09 AM

pulper11
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Canon R6 and rolling shutter

Zenon Char wrote:
I don't see any either but in an R7 Duade Patons explains warping you can get from your movement. Start at 14:45

Here I know the duck is a little elongated because compared to other captures in the burst sequence the shape of the bird slightly different from frame to frame. Below are readout speeds from one of his videos. He does not list the R6II which I also have. I don't know the readout speed of it.

Thanks for the post. I really like Duade Paton's youtube videos and he discusses exactly what I'm worried about with my photos. Especially when I resume shooting college football in a couple of weeks with the R6 and the 400 F4 DO IS mark 2. That's on a monopod but I often swing the camera from one side of the field to another to try to find the receiver catching the ball. With fans and seats in the background, it might become too obvious. The R6ii has a faster readout speed than the R5 but still not as fast as the R3 (of course).

It seems no one thinks the "distortion" for lack of a better word in my first photo here is b/c of rolling shutter. That's good news and leads me to believe I'd have the same result with a camera with a faster readout.

5k for a camera is a lot to pay for a hobbyist, and it appears that even if I do get photos with the rolling shutter (like in football described above) with the R6, that they won't be in all of them. While it sucks to lose out on a photo b/c of this, I'll have to grin and bear it realizing that the alternative (an R3) is just too expensive right now.

Oct 04, 2023 at 08:31 AM

Zenon Char
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Canon R6 and rolling shutter

pulper11 wrote:
Thanks for the post. I really like Duade Paton's youtube videos and he discusses exactly what I'm worried about with my photos. Especially when I resume shooting college football in a couple of weeks with the R6 and the 400 F4 DO IS mark 2. That's on a monopod but I often swing the camera from one side of the field to another to try to find the receiver catching the ball. With fans and seats in the background, it might become too obvious. The R6ii has a faster readout speed than the R5 but still not as fast as...Show more →

I’d love the R3 but too rich for me too. Eventually tech will better cheaper and Canon will stack (or something else) sensors for the prosumer models.

I’m fascinated by Canon’s possible electromagnetic shutter tech to remove shutter shock. Whether it will even come to be and before cheaper stacked sensors come out is yet it be seen. I’ll post a video when I get home:

Oct 04, 2023 at 09:17 AM

Zenon Char
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Canon R6 and rolling shutter

Oct 04, 2023 at 09:54 AM

Mike_5D
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Canon R6 and rolling shutter

jedibrain wrote:
Shooting soccer in ES only. I only see rolling shutter on the ball - which turns egg shaped - right off the foot (its fastest speed), and occasionally on the leg at certain moments in a place kick. I'd say maybe 3% of frames. The ball more often, but its rarely distracting to the point you'd notice it if you weren't really looking for it.

I too don't see much if any rolling shutter in your shots.

Brian

I tried ES with the R6 at a U10 girls soccer game once for a few minutes. Even at that level the effects were obvious. Back to EFCS. I don't find the lower viewfinder frame rate too distracting, and I don't really need to bring home more frames anyway.

Oct 04, 2023 at 10:40 AM

rscheffler
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Canon R6 and rolling shutter

I've been shooting football with the R6II and R6 combo now for a while longer. The R6II has slightly better rolling shutter control than the R5, which in turn is slightly better than the R6. Between then R6II and R6 I don't notice much 'real world' difference in my images from football games, in respect to rolling shutter effects, but the effects are still there if you look for them. It's most noticeable when suddenly changing camera pan direction or suddenly stopping a pan. Or if a player running left quickly changes direction and runs right. How noticeable it will be also depends on if you're shooting horizontal or vertical compositions and the direction of the action.

I feel you can generally get away with e-shutter in football because the fastest moving object in the game, the ball, is not perfectly round to begin with and it's usually thrown rather than kicked, which means it travels somewhat slower on release than a kick. If you look for it, you can still see ball distortion on really hard throws, particularly with the receiver just about to catch it (see examples below).

I mostly notice the distortion when scrolling through sequences. But this doesn't mean individual images on their own look obviously distorted. The distortion is usually very minor and only becomes apparent when there are other images to compare it to in a sequence you can quickly move through. That said, if it's a quick pan sequence shot horizontally, then you may see it in background distortion that is noticeable in a standalone image.

Here are some SOOC examples (no tonality correction to these so they'll look a bit flat/muted because I dial contrast way down for a slightly wider tonal range view in the EVF)...

This one was a failed two-point conversion shot on the R6 that was a fast pan from right to left of the players leaping up for the ball and the receiver ultimately not catching it as he moved left towards the sideline. Here you can clearly see 'leaning' of background elements like the scoreboard and uprights. Also note the massive 'scrambling' of the scoreboard because of e-shutter. I don't usually shoot with LED boards in the background, so generally don't care about it, but had this been a much better catch reception image, then arguably the scrambled scoreboard could be a problem.

Ball distortion - you can see that the football is somewhat elongated in the examples below, all shot on R6II.

Here's a gif of one of the catch sequences from pre-pregame warmups. Note the leaning of the uprights.

The R3 will mostly avoid these problems. The scoreboard banding problem might be addressable by the R6II's high frequency flicker setting. But it's really up to the individual to determine how acceptable some signs of rolling shutter are in their results. As I've posted before, if you shoot a lot of stick and (round) ball sports, then EFCS or an R3 might be the better route.

pulper11 wrote:
If you don't mind, please take a look at more of my shots from the game and let me know if you see rolling shutter being a nuisance in these shots:

https://photobybarnick.com/michigan-vs-simon-fraser-hockey/

I didn't see anything obviously annoying. The images where action is moving across the frame and you're panning with it, some show slight leaning in vertical background elements. But IMO it's only noticeable if you know to look for it and is IMO very minor and not a factor. Would be interesting to see some slap shots. Maybe try during warmups?

Oct 04, 2023 at 02:44 PM

Zenon Char
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Canon R6 and rolling shutter

"But this doesn't mean individual images on their own look obviously distorted".

Good point because I posted that duck shot in either the Canon Summer or R7 forum. Maybe someone noticed it was tad stretched but I was not worried about it. Those type of things you often have to point out.

Oct 04, 2023 at 03:03 PM

Imagemaster
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Canon R6 and rolling shutter

There are basically three types of rolling-shutter effect; minor, medium, and extreme.

There are basically three types of opinions from people looking at images with this effect; the majority of most people that don’t notice the minor effect, the photographers that know about this effect and will mention it, and the photographer that took the photo and is concentrating mainly on the effect and not the main subject.

Objectionable or not, is in the eye of the beholder.

Oct 04, 2023 at 03:24 PM

justashooter
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Canon R6 and rolling shutter

To me, It's like pixel peeping. Looking for how noisy an image is (or isn't) or pinpoint sharpness and missing the content off the image.

Oct 04, 2023 at 04:28 PM

JohnDoe5512
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Canon R6 and rolling shutter

justashooter wrote:
I don't see any rolling shutter issues with these images. You are going to see rolling shutter issues with fast moving objects such as slap shots, batting, pitchers hands will distort at the end of their pitch, golf swings, etc. I don't shoot enough slap shots in hockey to worry about it, and don't shoot golf, so I shoot everything with electronic shutter except baseball. I use mechanical shutter for that. The verticals in the background using electronic shutter don't distort enough to bother me. I shoot with a R6 Mark II.

I pretty much have the same experience with an R5.

Noticeable RSE on the ball here if you look for it (I don't find it objectionable, a lot like motion blur), none on the racket that I can see:

https://pqtest-08-27-2022.s3.amazonaws.com/2023-08-23-TEN-USO-Klein-Navone-5882.JPG

On this one I don't really see any (low res because I was too far away):

https://pqtest-08-27-2022.s3.amazonaws.com/2023-08-24-TEN-USOP-Gauff-Sabalenka-3868.JPG

Both shot with an R5 + RF 70-200 F 2.8 L, ES at 1/2500s

Oh, and I don't see any RSE on OP's photos.

Oct 04, 2023 at 09:23 PM

jedibrain
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Canon R6 and rolling shutter

Odd we'd see such different results. At U10 I was still sitting a 5D3, but now at U14-16, getting the results above with an R6.

On a side note....I don't know what's wrong with me but the VF "blackout" in all shutter modes seems not more disruptive to me than the miror flipping in my 5d3. I guess I am lucky that I don't find it objectionable. Perhaps I'd be ruined if I looked through an R3, lol.

Mike_5D wrote:
I tried ES with the R6 at a U10 girls soccer game once for a few minutes. Even at that level the effects were obvious. Back to EFCS. I don't find the lower viewfinder frame rate too distracting, and I don't really need to bring home more frames anyway.

Oct 05, 2023 at 06:51 AM

pulper11
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Canon R6 and rolling shutter

rscheffler wrote:
This one was a failed two-point conversion shot on the R6 that was a fast pan from right to left of the players leaping up for the ball and the receiver ultimately not catching it as he moved left towards the sideline. Here you can clearly see 'leaning' of background elements like the scoreboard and uprights. Also note the massive 'scrambling' of the scoreboard because of e-shutter. I don't usually shoot with LED boards in the background, so generally don't care about it, but had this been a much better catch reception image, then arguably the scrambled scoreboard could be...Show more →

Thanks for the reply with all those examples!

With the first example image, if it had been a more significant play, would you have sent the image to your client with the background distorted like that (forget about the scoreboard - I'm more thinking about the leaning goal posts)?

Unfortunately, rolling shutter is one of those things that once you've seen it, it's hard (at least for me) not to see it. Based on your statements here, the R6ii will not be the answer for me if it is something that bothers me too much. It's either learning to live with it or getting an R3.

I figured while doing the calculations that I would get 12 EFCS shots and 20 (R6) or 40 (R6ii) shots while doing a game. Therefore, I might screw up some shots with the rolling shutter (if I can't live with it) but I'd also end up with more shots of the same sequence which might not have rolling shutter. Have you found this to be the case?

Unfortunately, I don't have any slapshots from the game. Here are a few wrist shots that show an amazing bend to the stick, albeit probably not too out of line with realism.

https://photobybarnick.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/MG_1524-scaled.jpg

https://photobybarnick.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/MG_2463-scaled.jpg

Oct 05, 2023 at 08:49 AM

Zenon Char
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Canon R6 and rolling shutter

For the amount these modern day sticks cost I would expect them to bend that much. Amazing how light they are.

Oct 05, 2023 at 08:58 AM

Zenon Char
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Canon R6 and rolling shutter

What will come first? Stacked sensors (or global shutter) that all bodies will have or an AI app that corrects warped balls?

Oct 05, 2023 at 09:00 AM

amacal1
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Canon R6 and rolling shutter

Zenon Char wrote:
For the amount these modern day sticks cost I would expect them to bend that much. Amazing how light they are.

I don't know many hockey players, but would they love a shot like this? "DUde, loooook how awesome I am!"

Zenon Char wrote:
What will come first? Stacked sensors (or global shutter) that all bodies will have or an AI app that corrects warped balls?

AI that fixes warped balls is probably already here in some Lightroom update. Unfortunately, it probably requires an additional subscription level and is prone to counter-warping ball-like objects that aren't warped (Adobe may or may not update one day to fix it).

Oct 05, 2023 at 09:10 AM

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